Organ replaced with Guitars… Oh My!!!
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Tue, November 29, 2005
- Viewed 225
- (77) comments so far
If we can't agree on everything; then we agree on nothing.
Everything was very judgmental and legalistic toward the end of the church I grew up in (yes, they were killed off by legalism while I was off in college). The issues: hair length; card playing; sending kids to public school... you name it; they had a problem with it. If you didn't keep the list; you were 'in sin' and don't even think about hangin' with anybody who broke the rules.
It seems there aren't as many separatists today as there once were (although I think most of them blog!)... but the movement is still alive and well. Here is a great example...
You can find the link to the following here... (David W. Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061, , http://www.wayoflife.org, 866-295-4143):
The October 29 issue of the Chattanooga Times Free Press (Chattanooga, Tennessee) featured a picture of Tennessee Temple University students worshipping to contemporary rock music during a Wednesday evening service. The accompanying article said:
"Beneath the 90-year-old stained glass at St. Andrews Center, rock music blares as worshippers in jeans and T-shirts fill the sanctuary. The weekly Wednesday night church service has all the markings of traditional worship--music, preaching and praying. But the choir and organ have been replaced with drums and an electric guitar. 'Each generation has different styles of music, and what churches have to realize is that we've got to meet those younger generations' needs,' said Dr. Danny Lovett, who preaches at the service and is president of Tennessee Temple University."
Where does the Bible say God's people should use the world's style of music? To the contrary, we are instructed to have spiritual music (Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16), which means music that is set apart unto God from this wicked world. See 1 Jn. 2:15-17; Jam. 4:4; Tit. 2:11-14; Rom. 12:2. While it is a sad thing for older graduates of this school to observe, it is not surprising to see Tennessee Temple and Highland Park Baptist Church take such a dramatic turn to a worldly philosophy. Lovett recently came to Temple from Jerry Falwell's Liberty Baptist University, and it is New Evangelical to the core. Billy Graham, the Prince of New Evangelicalism, has spoken at Liberty and has been praised by Falwell for his 'faithful ministry.' Liberty students are not warned about the heresy of Graham's ecumenical evangelism or of his unscriptural emphasize the positive, judge not philosophy. Liberty has hosted conferences for the radically ecumenical Promise Keepers as well as for Rick Warren. Biblical separation is rapidly fading from the agenda of a large body of former fundamentalist Baptists who are moving in the popular contemporary direction.
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My goodness... take out the organ and put in a guitar (by the way, there were many stringed instruments in the Bible); and suddenly we crossed the line from spiritual to unspiritual; from Godly to ungodly.
But here's the problem... someone is determining what music is spiritual and which music is unspiritual... which music is godly and which is ungodly.
The songs song 20 years ago at Tennessee Temple University (when the school was 'godly') were not written in Bible times. They were new at one time (just like the songs they sing now).
The electronic and/or pipe organ is not a biblical new testament instrument. If anything, guitars are closer to the 'original'. But many churches viewed the organ as 'ungodly' when it was introduced. There are churches still today who don't use any musical instruments. Again, someone has made the choice.
But since The Beatles and other 'rock' musicians use guitars; guitars are worldy. Who made that decision?
I don't hear anyone saying that we shouldn't use pianos in worship because Liberace was gay.
Or that we shouldn't wear ties to church because the worldy business community also wear ties to conduct their secular drugery.
But here's the main thing I noticed when I was a part of a separatist church... the church tended to concentrate on the negative... and once it started on one thing, it lead to a list of other evils (all of which the church had something against). That's what intrigued me about the above quote. All that it took for him to go off was that the organ was replaced by a guitar. This lead to all of the following...
--this all happened because the leader came from Liberty
--Libery is NeoEvangelical
--Billy Graham has spoken at Liberty
--Billy Graham is a heretic (and the Prince of New Evangelicalism, btw)
--Liberty students 'haven't been warned'
--They've worked with Promise Keepers and Rick Warren (it ALWAYS comes back to him, doesn't it?)
--Few are left but us... even the fundamentalists are moving in the 'popular contemporary direction'
How'd he get all that from one newspaper article?
I guess you'd have to have grown up a separatist to understand that one. (And I think I do).
It's sad... but I think I do.
Any thoughts? Any separatists among us? Welcome, from a former separatist! 
Todd
I grew up as a conservative, separatist Baptist. (Yes, I survived.) We didn’t fellowship with any other church in town. Actually, there was only one other church that we acknowledged that existed (and we really didn’t care for them very much). We didn’t even play basketball with other churches. We didn’t ‘smoke, chew, or run with girls who do’. So I feel that I kind of understand the separatist mindset. It goes a little something like this…
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Ben E on Tue, November 29, 2005
pdl,
I would agree that SOME churches have taken it “over the line” with SOME music.
Often I find it has to do with the maturity level or cultural situation of the believer. There are some bonifide “rock” songs that have Christian oriented lyrics that move my heart deeply. Some bring deep conviction others lift my passion for Christ and His mission in & for me.
These songs are personal to me yet, as a worship leader, I wouldn’t use them publicly (in the worship service) without carefully considering the context or those recieving it.
Music is a powerful “substance.” And, like many things God has given us, can be use to inform, inspire and draw us to closer to God. And, it can also be abused and be a sound track for rebellion. Scripture is a gift with many wonderful, great and glorious purposes yet, in the hands (or mouths) of some, it can be used to divide, mis-inform and drive people away.
To me, the most crazy thing is how blind people on either side of the issue can be.
I took part in a community wide Thanksgiving service last week. The “featured” pastor jumped, screamed (literally SCREAMED!) hollered and ran about the platform like some crazed man! People from his church supplied the “special” music which was all Southern Gospel with drums, lead guitars, bass, the WORKS! There was even some soul in one of the songs yet, I’d bet you anything he’d the first use scripture to judge & condem the “sex, drug & rockn’ roll” crowd for acting THE SAME WAY. I just had to marvel at it all and go eat some turkey.
Good Night
Ben E
bwa on Tue, November 29, 2005
I attended Tennessee Temple, great school great church reached many ppl for Christ but I am so glad to see them losen up!!! It was so bad there one time my father who was in seminary waited 21 min to get into the book store when he got to the door they would not let him because he had just a little hair over the back of his ear(he also pastered one of thier chapels), my sister could not wear pants because she was a cheerleader, I did not see my firs movie untill I was 16, it was so stupid it was funny. Again they reached many ppl started many churchs just had to many rules and people who liked the rules more than ppl.
Glad to see them realzing that, I know some churchs that think they are going liberal
not true I think they are just trying to be relevant. We all have to be careful or we can beome just like just on the other side of the coin, hey if a church is doing that and its working for them and they are reaching ppl let em get after it thats why baskin robbins has 31flavors
Aaron on Tue, November 29, 2005
I remember a simple lesson in theology class about convictions, pursuasions, and opinions. The good Dr. Scholes helped students develop a sense of what is vital to our faith and what adds to our never ending debate in Chistendom.
Keep our convictions to the essentials(We need not add much to the apostle’s creed). Our useless arguments that Paul warned his young apprentice Timothy abound daily. We think much to highly of our pursuasions and opinions.
Jesus, Paul, and Peter irritated well intended religious folks in thier attempt to impact eternity. We should seek to join their company. It reinvigorates our faith.
Evangelist Jeff on Wed, November 30, 2005
Just do it man, just do it….
The last time I read the Psalms I believe David worshipped God with raised hands, clanging cymbals, and dancing. If it is sin I the worst because I play the guitar.
pdl on Wed, November 30, 2005
Good morning all…Todd,
I agree with your statements on convictions etc… however, my case against Rock-n-Roll as a style linked too closely to be ignored with the rebellion of our culture against God is not an opinion that I formed from personal experience (although I was born in the 60’s) The roots of Rock-n-Roll are historically entirely drawn from satanic/immoral/philosophical rebellion against God and the fruits of it as an expression of rebellion are dropping like rotten figs all around us. WOW! I know what I am talking about! Study the history of Rock-n-Roll with a open mind and an open Bible and you will see that Rock is really the design of the Devil intended specifically to bind the minds/emotions/spirits of its devotees to doctrines of satan, immoral practices and specific rebellion against Jesus Christ. Space is limited here—but, I assure you I could fill this blogh with statement after statement of rockers who have stated it more clearly that I could ever do. We can ignore the facts of this special dispensation (style) of satan wrapped in confusion. Or we can look at it critically and ask God if “rockin” the church house meets HIS STANDARDS of holiness in worship.
pdl
Todd on Wed, November 30, 2005
pdl,
I respect what you think, but I disagree.
David ‘rocked the house’ if you will. Probably in a way that we’ve never seen or come close to experiencing.
He danced naked in the street. Looked so stupid that his wife accused him of being a skank.
Old testament worship was loud. trumpets, drums, strings.
As a musician, notes are notes; and instruments are instruments. And I don’t subscribe that there are any moral equivilants based on the way the notes and/or instruments are arranged.
I had a pastor in college say that rock music was evil because the 2nd beat of the measure was emphasized instead of the 1st beat (as God intended). Poppycock.
I respect you opinion, pdl… but respecfuly disagree.
Todd
Evangelist Jeff on Wed, November 30, 2005
Pdl, I just wanted you know that I understand where you coming from. I felt the same way a few years ago until I met my wife. When I met her she listened to Michael W. Smith. I didn’t like it at first but I listened to it because she enjoyed it and I listened to it with an open mind. Now I am 40 yrs. old and I grew up in the 80’s. Now I love this type of music. I will say though, there are a few out there that you have to question.
Like for instance, Gospel music never use to be popular. You had a few who use to sing it leave and went to country music. Now they have come back to gospel. Why? Because that is where the money is. I disagree with this.. But you take people like Jeremy Camp, Michael, Casting Crowns and many more, who have a mission for the Lord and alot of young people are coming to Christ. Sat. Night Casting Crowns and bldg. 429 where here in concert. There were about 200-300 people who where saved. Some of them where 6- 60 yrs. of age… To be honest with you I like jazz, classical, old country music, 50,60, 80’s, Gospel and Contemporay. If I ask you something would you do it for me… Buy you Michael W. Smiths Vol. 1&2;of praise music, and just set back and listen with an open mind and open heart…
drbob on Wed, November 30, 2005
Mudsic is spiritual in that it somehow connects with our innermost being, but music in and of itself is not evil or good. I went through music appreciation as a College and Seminary student, and if you just listen to music without lyrics it paints whatever picture you have in your spirit at the time. Figure skaters can perform “Amazing Grace” but without the lyrics it is just a pretty tune.
About legalism - its like when David was going to fight Goliath and Saul gave him his armor to wear - it didn’t fit. We are in a different battle, we need new strategies, David still fought in the power of the LORD, but with different tools.
pdl on Wed, November 30, 2005
Todd,
So by illustration what you are saying to me is…because David “danced naked in the street” it is ok for us to, with full knowledge, adopt a style of “worship” that is the default expression of Satan’s rebellion in our culture?
BTW—He wasn’t naked…he wore a priestly linen ephod (2Sam.6:16) and a robe (1Chron.15:27).
Also, I am not against spontaneous, enthusiastic worship driven by the Holy Spirit…this is what David did—with all his might! Somehow, I see that expression completely disconnected from the image of David “rockin’ the house” gyrating naked to some CCM jam session.
Questions:
Is Rock-n-Roll THE preferred music of this culture’s expression of rebellion against God?
Are the roots of Rock-n-Roll (objectively/historically/currently) in satanism/immorality/rebellion specifically directed against Jesus Christ?
Is style part of the substance of music?
If these questions are answered “yes”—why do we assume that God is ok with it as a form of worship unto Him?
I believe we make that assumption because we like it and it fits well into our man-centered designs regarding how we want to “do church”.
Todd, have you ever taken time with a clear mind before God asked Him if it is ok with Him to allow Rock-n-Roll to drive the form of worship in your church?
I have (and I was leader of a Rock-centered youth worship band)and I heard what I did not want to hear.
I am no Quaker! Our church gets loud—sometimes spontaneous—often enthusiastic. We have a “worship team” complete with singers, acustic guitar, electric base, wind instruments, violins, piano, keyboard and YES—Congas! Yet, we have philosophically made a decision to not do Ronk-n-Roll for the reasons that I have already stated. BTW—we also .ppt our worship up on the big screen. I am not against technology and contemporary instrumentation—but Rock-n-Roll has a message in the style itself that is not compatible with worship of Jesus Christ.
I know we disagree, but please answer the questions I posed above—how do you get around the objective nature of Rock’s satanic connection and the implications I raised in my questions? I don’t mean to be arguementitive, I am just so convinced that Rock is against God and that it is a “Trojan Horse” of Satan’s warring against the Church in this age/culture.
pdl
pjlr on Wed, November 30, 2005
My son is a classically trained musician and awesome vocalist (he sings with the Chicago Symphony Chorus).
I love what he says about organs and organ music. “Dad, an organ is a synthesizer . . . a really bad synthesizer.”
I thought you’d get a kick out of that
Matt on Wed, November 30, 2005
pdl
I think you have missed Todd and other’s point that, even if you are right in your assumption that rock came about out of rebellion against God, that it is STILL an invention of man. So what if that’s how it started. That doesn’t make it inherently evil. There is no biblical mandate on how we are to worship God. Wouldn’t Paul go off on that like he did the Galatians? How in the world can you call it evil when it has been bringing people closer to God in worship settings than old hymns have in 50 years? (Not a knock on hymns. they rule)
So yeah, a few people “invented” rock out of rebellion. But a lot of other people have used it to glorify God and to facilitate a worship experience that has attracted thousands of people to hear the good news. In fact, it played a crucial role in my salvation. To hear you call it evil hits a sore nerve. You may not want to use rock music in your church. That’s fine.
But God is using it to reach unsaved people like I once was.
Todd on Wed, November 30, 2005
pdl,
I think Matt pretty much sums up my thoughts and answers to your questions…
1. Is Rock-n-Roll THE preferred music of this culture’s expression of rebellion against God?
Although I think it’s the preferred style of Americans, I don’t think most Americans view RR as an expression of rebellion against God.
2. Are the roots of Rock-n-Roll (objectively/historically/currently) in satanism/immorality/rebellion specifically directed against Jesus Christ?
To be honest, any new style of music over the years have been categorized as rebellion over the years. RR is no different. Before RR, there were dance halls where young people rebelled with great orchestras.
3. Is style part of the substance of music?
I think music and style is amoral and can be used for good and/or evil purposes regardless of style.
4. If these questions are answered “yes”—why do we assume that God is ok with it as a form of worship unto Him?
I believe my answers were no. http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
5. Todd, have you ever taken time with a clear mind before God asked Him if it is ok with Him to allow Rock-n-Roll to drive the form of worship in your church?
Yep, as a musician; probably more time than most, actually.
You said, “Yet, we have philosophically made a decision to not do Ronk-n-Roll for the reasons that I have already stated.”
Again, that’s your line, and I think that’s great.
BTW… you use congas? Wow. I really question that. You know that the African tribes use congas while they sacrifice babies to idols don’t you?
http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif [Todd smiles]
(when was the last time you heard the “african tribe” beat argument against rock music? now THAT brings back memories).
Todd
pdl on Wed, November 30, 2005
Matt,
[Is Rock-n-Roll THE preferred music of this culture’s expression of rebellion against God?
Are the roots of Rock-n-Roll (objectively/historically/currently) in satanism/immorality/rebellion specifically directed against Jesus Christ?
Is style part of the substance of music?]
I think your answer to these was basically:
‘Yes—but so what?’
Pragmatically speaking, you are right to say that Rock-n-Roll is impacticng a lot of people in and outside of the Church.
However, the subtle message that comes in with the adapatation of Rock is: ‘You know what you disciples of Christ, seperation from worldliness is really a second-tier issue to God in the Church. And you folks who are lost in “drugs, sex and rock-n-roll…don’t worry about it, God is just like you—-He even enjoy’s the same music…come on in and have a good time…we’lll talk about the cross you are to bear later after we have entertained you into the Kingdom.
Matt, rock-n-roll is not working…I saw more kids dragged off and enticed by the spirit behind “christian rock” into worldliness and spiritual failure that I ever did “saved” through rock-n-roll in my years working as a youth pastor. In fact, in my years working with Tenn Challenge as a counsellor I saw more “church kids and pastor’s sons” come through our doors that you could ever imagine. A common link to their backsliding was the cross-over effect that much of CCM has created among the youth of our churches…crossing over to the world’s rock scene after having their appetites whetted by the “christian rock scene”. Does this mean that God cannot reach into lives involved in rock? Of course He can…P-T-L…but when He does it is in spite of the Rock-n-Roll not because of it.
pdl
Bart on Wed, November 30, 2005
Yes, music is cultural. But let’s not force anyone to like what you like. To force a congregation that is mostly over age 70 to do contemporary would be like forcing a contemporary church to do African or Asian music. Just because someone doesn’t like your style of music does not make them legalistic. My grandparents don’t like my music and I don’t like theirs. Just like Todd has been saying recently- BALANCE.
Matt on Wed, November 30, 2005
pdl
Sorry, not buying it. Of course you’re gonna see more “church kids and pastors sons” coming throuhg your doors. Have you ever been one? I feel sorry for them. They get hyperexposed to the bible their entire youth and THAT is what turns them off.
Rock n Roll isn’t working? Are you serious? Is that why there is a MASSIVE spiritual reformation among teens and college aged people sweeping the nation? Is that why you can now find people in their early twenties sitting in significant positions in churches because of their passion? Have you even heard of the Passion movement?
Dude, it’s ok to disagree. But to make such statements in the face of so much evidence to the contrary…come on man.
Todd says it better than I could. Style has nothing to do with substance. Style is how we communicate the substance. So my answer for that question is a big fat NO. As for your inference that Rock came about soley out of rebellion…well, I’m not so sure about that one. I was just going on your assumption. And is Rock the preferred rebellion? I’m honeslty gonna offer that it’s not now. Rock is tame by comparison to some of the crap out there today. But even then, I have definitely seen even rap (which I personally despise, though for no spiritual reason) reach even the hardest of hearts.
Music is one of the most prevalent concepts in the OT. To infer that God only uses certain types to reach people is naive. Music alone doesn’t lead people away from God. It’s called free will. And it may have been a lack of discipleship on their mentors’ parts. (I’m referring to the ones you mentioned.) I don’t know, but demonizing a style of music simply because it is used by pagans is foolish and I think it is a perfectly good waste of potential to use for reaching people for Christ and for glorifying God.
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