Rick Warren on “Trends in the Church” (Part 1)
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Fri, July 08, 2005
- Viewed 265
- (17) comments so far
The first trend that I would say you need to be aware of is the return of the evangelical movement to its 19th-century roots; that is going to be a big story ? the return of the evangelical movement to its 19th-century roots. What are those roots? Compassionate activism ? and I am not talking about politics; I am talking about the fact that about a hundred years ago, Christianity split into two wings in the Protestant division and this hasn't been happening with Catholicism, but it did happen in Protestantism.
There is a fellow named Walter Rauschenbusch, who is the man who came up with the term "social gospel." Rauschenbusch was a liberal theologian and he basically said we don't need this stuff about Jesus anymore; we don't need the cross; we don't need salvation; we don't need atonement; we just need to redeem the social structures of society and if we do that people will automatically get better. This is basically Marxism in a Christian form.
And there were even magazines like The Christian Century, which was a pretty audacious title when it started at the beginning of the 20th century ? as if to say, this is going to be the Christian century; we are going to bring in the millennium simply by changing the social structures of society. Well, nobody believes that anymore after two world wars and a bunch of other stuff.
But what happened is Protestantism split into two wings, the fundamentalists and the mainline churches. And the mainline churches tended to take the social action issues of Christianity ? caring for the sick, for the poor, the dispossessed, racial justice and things like that. Today there really aren't that many Fundamentalists left; I don't know if you know that or not, but they are such a minority; there aren't that many Fundamentalists left in America.
Anyway, the fundamentalist and evangelical movement said they were just going to care about personal salvation when they split from the mainline churches. What happened is the mainline churches cared about the social morality and the evangelicals cared about personal morality. That's what happened when they split. But they really are all part of the total gospel ? social justice, personal morality and salvation. And today a lot more people, evangelicals, are caring about those issues.
Bono called me the other day and said why don't you come up to the U2 concert at the Staples Center because we're both active in AIDS prevention. My wife and I have given millions to the prevention of AIDS and those afflicted and those orphaned by AIDS. And we were working together with him and he came back to us and I said, "What have you learned in this data plan that you've got?" And he said, "That I was wrong about the church. They have been the most receptive, and I didn't expect them to be receptive." And we began to talk about that, but that's a trend, and one of the trends you're going to be hearing about in the future is a thing called the Global Peace Plan, and we may get back into that a little bit later.
I would echo one of the things John DiIulio said earlier, that Washington isn't that important. It's not. I'm sorry to tell you that, but it's just not. And one of the things that evangelicals have is a true view of the limitations of politics. Politics is always downstream in culture. By the time it gets to law ? I'm sorry, folks ? it's already in the water system. There is not a high school person in America who has a politician's picture on his wall as a hero. Who do they have? Sports stars, entertainers, celebrities and things like that. And so, I would say that that's a key issue.
You can read the whole transcript here.
FOR DISCUSSION: What do you think of Rick's history of the evangelical church? Do you think we are actually returning to our roots?
Next time we'll look at what Rick has to say about the 40 Days of Purpose phenomenon.
Have a great weekend!
Todd
I found an interesting transcript the other day that features Rick Warren talking to a small group of journalists recently at the Pew Forum’s "Faith Angle" conference on religion, politics, and public life. Rick mentions a few of the trends he sees in the church, and we’ll take a few posts in the coming days to hear what he has to say. Today, he discusses a return of the evangelical church to its 19th-century roots. Rick Warren says…
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bernie dehler on Fri, July 08, 2005
Warren says:
“ Today there really aren’t that many Fundamentalists left; I don’t know if you know that or not, but they are such a minority; there aren’t that many Fundamentalists left in America.”
I disagree. I think today’s “Evangelicals” are the same group that were called “fundamentalists” in the 80’s. The reason why we are now called Evangelicals today is because the name “fundamentalist” has been poisoned… mainly by associating with Jeffy Falwell’s “Moral Majority” and political movements, and all the subsequent negative press focus on the word “fundamentalist.”
I think if you look back into the 80’s, you’ll see that many of the groups that called themselves “fundamentalists” are now called “evangelical,” and yet their core positions or ideas haven’t changed at all. That’s the way I see myself.
...Bernie
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/247/
Jim Reich on Fri, July 08, 2005
I think that “fundamentalists” used to be a sub-set of protestants & “evangelicals” were a smaller sub-set of that. However, evangelicals have grown to the point where the roles are reversed. Evangelicals as I see them today, are typically more outward focused & progressive (not liberal) while “fundies” are typically more closed & legalistic. The growth of evangelicals has been such that they are even making inroads into the mainline churches where many groups are “going evangelical” & are considering splitting off from their roots.
rick on Fri, July 08, 2005
I have no idea what rick is talking about concerning the history side of things. His categories are either too simplistic for me to accept…or so complicated, I’m not smart enough to understand. I’m not a dummy…but I need an interpreter for his history lesson.
Other than that, he might be right about the current trend toward social justice…but I think that’s simply a microcosm of a larger philosophy of ministry that’s emerging in younger churches.
bws on Fri, July 08, 2005
Is it just me or does anyone else have a problem with Bono speaking in our churchs!!
Have you herd this guy talk, his language
and some of the things he talks about, Hey call me legalistic but what happened to in but not off.
Josh on Sat, July 09, 2005
I think it is refreshing. I think society sees Evangelicals based on 2 or 3 social issue stands. While our position on those issues may be right, if that is all someone sees, they are not going intrigued by what is different in our heart.
We should put our full effort and prayer into feeding the poor, healing the sick, and teaching the young. When people see the changes that happen through this kind of ministry, they will see the body of Christ.
I respect Rick Warren’s leadership. I think God is using his work to transform a lot of lives.
bws on Sat, July 09, 2005
That should have been (in not of)
I am not saying as christians we cannot work with other people but I could never let a person who swears like a drunk sailor and has a lifestyle like bonos speak behind the sacred desk where the word of God is preached, if you do then I think you are saying hey his life style does not matter he’s ok
Al on Sat, July 09, 2005
BWS,
I agree!
The church should be leading on this issue and people like Bono should be trying to keep up. As it looks though, Bono seems to have a greater heart for the poor then most “Christians.” Maybe God is using him to “provoke us to” a type of jealousy that might move us to be the leaders in this world he has called us to be.
pmn on Sat, July 09, 2005
I find it interesting the way Rick Warren and others in Christendom today use history as a way of showing the differences today without really criticizing any side, simply stating how things are different implying their way is better without actually saying it(God forbid we offend anyone). What I don’t hear is any comparison to the truth of scripture and what Christ said the church is to be. It seems today that it’s not what the bible says, it’s how you interpret it, so why mention it at all? Afterall, if it’s not absolute to all people of faith, how can we say it is without running them off? Our goal is to win the sinner over to Christ, so let’s reason on their “personal” understanding of truth and lay aside the absolute truth.(Sounding like the gospel of pragmaticism, ends justifying the means?)
When the truth ceases to be absolute, God then ceases to be a sovreign God (truth has error, God has weaknesses) The repercussions? Endless.
It begins with man at the center. We decide that spirituality is equal with making sure everyone is loved because then they love us and people loving us equals a very spiritual person. Case in point, Bono. How proud we are that Bono now thinks the church is not so bad!! We go to bed at night and say “look God, someone else likes you? Didn’t I do a great job of representing you? I know, I’ll start playing upbeat music, put on skits, serve starbucks coffee and let people start coming to church in jeans and then they’ll think you’re an even cooler God. Eventually will make the whole world love you by convincing them that there’s nothing you want more than to have everyone believe that you love them more than anything else in this world!! Afterall, you lived and died to make much of us!!”
I wish I could say that the above is even a slight exaggeration, but this is the tragedy of the church. The sin that the “church” is guilty of today is the same sin in the garden. Robbing God of is glory. Oh how we need to lift him up as the sovreign God, giving him every attribute due him. If Bono finds him offensive, so be it. God said he would. The Bible says that the truth is not a friend to this world, so why do we keep trying to make it so? Read the gospel accounts. You will find Jesus making it very very difficult for anyone to call themselves a follower of Christ. It’s there, read it!!
The good news? Jesus said, I will build MY church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. I believe that we have many who are growing churches as kingdoms unto themselves. And while what we are seeing is rather disheartening, I rest in the absolute truth that God is sovreign and his hand is on his church today and his will is never, ever thwarted. Amen?
bryan on Sat, July 09, 2005
I do not mean to beat a dead horse but a great example of this was Joel Osteen on Larry King he could not even explain the gospel clearly, I know he aplogised but come on you are a pastor and you cannot talk in plain simple terms about salvation, the reason; he did not want to offend anyone, when will people realize not everyone liked Jesus, that was not his goal,and hey I like Rick Warren very smart, reached a lot of people for Christ, but I have a different view of seeker services, my Bible says that there is none that seek after God its God doing the seeking not man
Romans 3:11 Again I like Rick but at what point do you tell your kids hey this person is not a good example for you to follow, I know he is speaking at our church and hes a good man just do not act like him. I like what you said pmn Hey God isnt it great Bono likes you and your church hey the wrolds a great place. I’ll pass
Matt on Sun, July 10, 2005
I’m not sure that PMN knows what the “good news” is. It’s sort of ironic that he/she is all up in arms about reading the Bible to find ways to offend and insult (and then call is genuine spirituality) but he/she doesn’t know that Jesus came preaching the good news that the kingdom of heaven is at hand. To go down the road of the church, against which nothing will prevail, without first engaging the reality of the kingdom leaves one with a weak ecclessiology…one which is defined more by what I’m not (gay, abortionist, drinker, smoker, etc.) than the true life offered to those who would participate in the kingdom.
Ricky on Sun, July 10, 2005
pmn:
“I believe that we have many who are growing churches as kingdoms unto themselves.”
Uh, oh. You’ve done it now!
You’ve gone and told the truth! http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/wink.gif
Ricky on Sun, July 10, 2005
Rick Warren:
“a thing called the Global Peace Plan”
Hmmm. Sounds like the “One World Order” plan that’s been kicked around for a while.
And here is one of the most influential “evangelicals” in America buying into a further entanglement of the Church and state.
When will we learn that to further enmeshed the Church into the world mutates the Church into something she isn’t supposed to be and totally misrepresents the Body of Christ?
I suppose not until we get the “star” out of our eyes.
Swan on Sun, July 10, 2005
Since when do Christians need a spokesman on their behalf? Rick Warren does not speak for me. I’ll leave that to Jesus.
josh r on Sun, July 10, 2005
I find it telling how some people are so enthusiastic about putting down Mr. Warren that they make comments that are totally addressed in the interview.
There is plenty of room for criticism of Rick Warren. Some of the criticisms above are well thought out, and informed. Some on the other hand are written by people who didn’t bother to click on the link and find out what was actually said.
If you didn’t read the full interview, I encourage you to do so. You lose all of your credibility when you argue from a position of ignorance of the subject which you criticize.
Franklin Reeves on Tue, July 12, 2005
Some say the split a hundred years ago was between truth and love.
One side beleived we ought to show love and by the love men would be saved. They focused on obeying Christ in such things as service to others.
One side believed that the Truth should be tantamount. The focused more on preaching at the lost and saved.
The truth side will argue that they never set aside love. But as Josh McDowell puts its when is the last time a Pastor asked a person
Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, have you trusted in Him alone for salvation?
and
How has that changed they way you treat your wife, mother, father, son, neighbor?
I heard another preacher claim that what really happened was that the Gospel messaged was stripped of part of its weapons. The Law and it power to show a person thier need for a savior was jettisoned. We therefore now have many christians who have never been convicted of thier sin, therefore they have never repented, and do not esteem the sacrifice. They accepted christ inot thier hearts, but becasue they wanted peace, joy, healing, etc.. but not salvation from thier sins.
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