Saddleback Takes Over Purpose-Driven Amid Huge Cutbacks
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Wed, November 22, 2006
- Viewed 105
- (65) comments so far
A few years ago, during the height of the Purpose Driven national campaigns, I had the opportunity for an appointment at the PD offices (which were on the third floor (I think) of the Saddleback office building. I was amazed by how huge the organization and overhead was. There were about 160 employees on that floor… cubicle upon cubicle (I think there were cubicles in some of the cubicles). They were hiring 30 more people the month I was there. It was a madhouse… so much so that I got the feel that internally it was just growing too fast; without anyone really knowing who was doing what.
Anyway, I left that day thinking one thought: How in the world is this type of thing sustainable? When the Purpose Driven Life program subsided (as everyone knew it one day would) what would be the next thing that would keep all these people employed? 40 Days of Community didn’t seem to have the punch that 40 days of purpose did.
A little more from the CTI article:
“Purpose Driven as an organization, in a sense, really doesn’t exist anymore,” Jon Walker, Saddleback’s pastor of strategic communications, told CT.The most notable change will be to Purpose Driven Church conferences, which have trained more than 300,000 pastors in church growth. Saddleback will still host the annual conference at the Lake Forest, California, megachurch in May. But smaller conferences will be held less frequently. In addition, there will be no more nationwide 40 Days of Purpose campaigns, Walker said, though the program will be offered to churches individually.
“The success of The Purpose Driven Life and 40 Days of Purpose was a God-sent wave for which we are grateful, and we tried to be good stewards of the blessing,” Walker said. “However, it was inevitable that their popularity would crest and then settle into a long-term ministry of support.”
Layoffs began in July. 30 staff were let go; another 24 left through attrition. Rick and Kay even gave an extra $2 million to help with the short fall. It wasn’t enough.
In the mean time, Saddleback is planning on putting more emphasis on Warren’s Peace Plan: “It’s two very different things,” Walker said. “Purpose Driven was training for church growth. … P.E.A.C.E is more of a long-term missions thrust. There is not a product or a trend or anything that is associated with it. It is a long-term thing.”
SOURCE: CTI - Read the whole article here
FOR DISCUSSION: Does this surprise you? What is your first reaction to the news?
Christianity Today is reporting: The Purpose Driven Life remains number two on the cba hardcover bestseller list. But Purpose Driven the organization is over. Created amid the unprecedented popularity of Rick Warren's book, Purpose Driven ministries has lost its CEO, seen its staff reduced by a third, and significantly drawn back its services. No longer a separate entity, it is being overseen by the staff of Saddleback Church, where Warren is senior pastor. This really doesn't surprise me... Here's why:
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Todd Rhoades on Wed, November 22, 2006
Wow, Leonard… you beat me to it. I was about to say the *exact* same thing.
Don’t know how else to put it.
Oh… by the way; a few weeks ago, Bernie; we were talking about ministry finances and I wrote a sarcastic post about how you haven’t posted financials for a long while and some other things shortcomings. You thanked me for the advice and told me you appreciated the input and would work on it. It’s been over a month and last time I checked, it still hadn’t been done.
Fortunately, I’m going to give you a lot more grace than you’re willing to give anyone (but yourself). Let it serve as an example of how the Apostle Paul, Jesus, Mother Theresa, and John Hagee would treat you.
http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
Todd
Pastor Al on Wed, November 22, 2006
Hey Gang,
For the record I would like to pull the Jonah card! So get ready to listen up… as soon as I get back from a little cruse I am planning on taking. http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/grin.gif
Blessings and Happy Thanksgiving!
Pastor Al
Bernie of FreeGoodNews.com on Wed, November 22, 2006
Leonard:
“Your words drip with judgment a pride brother.”
That’s your interpretation. There’s nothing in the words, themselves, that indicate pride.
Leonard:
“When someone disagrees with you, points out an error in what you say, challenges you to become accountable to your words, you pull the Jesus, Paul and John the Baptist card. “
It’s not a card. it’s an example. If you see a flaw in the example, point it out with scripture or logic.
Leonard:
“This is the second time you have pulled that card and at the expense of another’s character. You do not know if Wendi would say that to them nor is there any call for that kind of posturing. “
Expense of what character? I’m just saying Wendi’s same point could be made of the Apostle Paul. He left “lots of carnage” behind, as Wendi would put it. This “carnage” in itself is not bad, since our role-models did it. Rebuke doesn’t feel good, but a godly person can give it as well as take it. How was their carnage any different? Because it was deserved, and supposedly, mine isn’t. If mine isn’t deserved, convince me from scripture and logic as to why.
Leonard:
“You are none of these people nor does your ministry present the credentials they did. “
Obviously I’m not one of those people. Neither are you, RW, or anyone else alive. We all have our own gifts and calling from God to fulfill. Still, they are our role-models, in which I’m sure you’ll agree.
About credentials, try judging Jesus by that. Was he educated in the Rabbinical schools? I don’t think so. In fact, he was generally despised by the ruling religious elite.
Leonard said:
“You come across more like the Pharisees who could not see their own flaws than Jesus, Paul or John the Baptist.”
Based on what? They also said Jesus had a demon in him. Anybody who is a leader has people who will disagree with him. Every leader has detractors. If you want to help me with flaws, use scripture and logic.
I answered your post line by line. I suppose that means I’m unable to learn, since I disagree with you, and you must be right… or do you have a tolerance for other viewpoints?
Bernie of FreeGoodNews.com on Wed, November 22, 2006
Todd said:
“Oh… by the way; a few weeks ago, Bernie; we were talking about ministry finances and I wrote a sarcastic post about how you haven’t posted financials for a long while and some other things shortcomings. You thanked me for the advice and told me you appreciated the input and would work on it. It’s been over a month and last time I checked, it still hadn’t been done. “
If it was something important, I’d work on it. I have a priority list. The newer financial posting would be a “nice to have,” not required. I have higher priorities. I’m not going to do it just because of a “sarcastic” (non-serious) post. As I said, if someone is concerned about my ministry income and expenses, I think simply noting that I’m the biggest donor and the ministry is 100% volunteer (zero paychecks) should answer the question.
Aaron on Wed, November 22, 2006
Todd:
Thanks for the info on RW and I enjoy the passionate activity the day before gratitude day. No one get bloggers out like RW.
Our staff discussion today was just on this topic of learning where God wants us to go. The reality is that we often know less than we wish about our direction. And our direction changes slightly in the past three months and may change slightly in the next three months. We are not static people. And we are interacting with a changing culture.
I love the Indian saying, “You never cross the same river twice.” We grow and change( I hope). I too have increased respect for RW who redirected vast resources with thought of the slightly different vision and he helped those who were instrumental in getting the work done. This PEACE plan may make much less money than PD. But it seems to be a work of God throughout the world.
Every movement has its lifecycle. It is just the fact of life. Even though churches tend to resuscitate dead programs quite often. PD worked for many. It does not work for everyone. But it was useful for so many churches and was instrumental in God’s interaction with many people. I enjoy the thoughts of everyone on the MMI blog circuit. Each is so different and vast. Just like my church which is made up of RW lovers and loathers. We can all state different opinions, because it helps me to better articulate what God is doing in my life. We just can’t attack anyone’s intentions. Because we are fairly poor judges of our own intentions much less someone elses.
Bernie of FreeGoodNews.com on Wed, November 22, 2006
By the way, Todd, notice what happened; it’s extremely important.
1. I critiqued ministerial pay and financial stewardship.
2. You asked questions about my ministry, to see if I’m a hypocrite.
You see, I fully knew that #2 would follow my #1. Any minister with half a brain would. I think this is a major reason why peer ministers don’t say anything about financial abuse within Christianity. They don’t want people asking “Well, how much do YOU make?”
Todd Inserted:
**Deleted example of yet another mega-freak abuser by Bernie** (again, Bernie; off-topic with the PD post here)
Wendi on Wed, November 22, 2006
Bernie,
When someone offers you feedback on how you come across (as so many of us have done here), it is not that they are disagreeing with your opinion. That would be like your wife saying “honey, when you said I was getting fat it hurt my feelings” and you responding, “well darling, I simply disagree with you that your feelings are hurt.” To so many of our ears, your comments come across (as Leonard eloquently tried to say for the umpteenth time), “dripping with judgment and pride.”
I won’t defend myself . . . as my comments were not intended to express my disagreement but rather genuine concern for you and your future ministry, and my desire to help. Believe it or not.
I don’t usually read posts that simply regurgitate scripture and make the entry too long to read, but since you asked I will offer some scripture. Maybe you could reread your posts on this thread today through the filter of these passages . . .
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.” (Matt 7:1-5)
“If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else, 5 for each one should carry his own load.” (Gal. 6:3-5)
Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is HELPFUL for building others up according to THEIR needs (emphasis added), that it may benefit those who listen. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. (Eph. 4:29-32)
“Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. 15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful.” (Col. 3:12-14).
Now what reason could you possibly give for ignoring my suggestion that you have someone neutral from your school read and give you feedback on your posts . . . cause Jesus didn’t need feedback and so neither do you?
Wendi
John 3:36 on Wed, November 22, 2006
I am stunned and amazed, well okay so maybe not completely amazed but nonetheless stunned, that people actually are looking to a former worship leader (sorry Todd it seems that’s all the accreditation you are willing to divulge on yourself in the About MMI page) as if he is some sort of a go-to guy, a legitimate “resource” of trust on how to do ministry. I mean, and I’m not claiming this is the case though some might suspect I do, what better tool could Satan use to distract and distort the mission of ministry and get churches off course and out of fulfilling God’s will than to prop up some “expert” who has no solid doctrinal foundation upon which to stand up for the truth of God’s word?Totally ironic.
Todd Rhoades on Wed, November 22, 2006
Bernie,
OK, here’s the deal… this is getting us nowhere; and we’ve been nowhere alot… really, just about every time you join a conversation.
There are some here who have called you to accountability; even if it is a blog-accountability.
Is there anyone you know and trust that reads your comments here? A pastor? Your spouse? A friend? One of your board members? a fellow student? If so; then I encourage you, as Wendi has, to have them read your interactions here on this blog and have them give you a clear and concise word on how your coming across. Don’t take it from many of us who you don’t know… but hopefully we’ve piqued your curiosity enough that you’ll want to get an honest second opinon from someone you trust.
Really… if someone was constantly telling me I was beligerant; obnoxious, pious, and ‘full of it’ (all words I’m making up for example purposes only), then I’d want to ask someone I trust how they perceive me.
Something like, “Honey, am I as big a problem as ‘those people’ say that I am?” “Pastor, do you see any of these tendencies in me?” “Friend, is what these people are saying about me seem rational to you?”
If you don’t, at this point, Bernie, you really have to ask yourself why?
I know you have ministry aspirations with your blog, your tv outreach, and you’ve mentioned that you’re starting a church. Perception and first impressions are important.
I am guessing that no one you know has read any of the threads you’ve been involved with here at MMI. There are plenty examples you can point people to. Just ask. them to answer.. how do I come across here? Is it the perception that I want to give? Is it the ‘real me’? Is there a problem?
I have people from my church read everything I write here regularly. My pastor; most all of the staff; and some good friends read most everything I write here; and they give me feedback. I cherish it; it helps me grow; it keeps my head from getting big; and helps me keep my perspective. I think a friend reading your every word here could be a valuable insight for you as well.
My 2 cents worth.
And actually, (and I’m being brutally honest here, Bernie)… something HAS to change in the attitude of your heart and the words of your mouth (in this case your fingers) if you want to continue to be a part of this community. Please don’t take that as a threat. It’s not. It’s an encouragement to get some input from someone you trust; and not just take it from us.
Happy Thanksgiving,
Todd
Leonard on Wed, November 22, 2006
Bernie,
I think you’d say the same thing to Jesus, the Apostle Paul, and John the Baptist. The Apostle Paul, for example, had both the religious elite and pagan’s try to kill him for what he said.
First of all, you did not say that the same point could be made, you said, I think you’d say the same thing. You attribute to Wendi the words of either the religious elite or pagans, not sure which you think she is.
Bernie,
Obviously I’m not one of those people. Neither are you, RW, or anyone else alive. We all have our own gifts and calling from God to fulfill. Still, they are our role-models, in which I’m sure you’ll agree.
No doubt they are our role models. Try the words of Paul, Love believes all things. In other words love gives the benefit of the doubt. Bernie you just give the doubt.
Bernie,
About credentials, try judging Jesus by that. Was he educated in the Rabbinical schools? I don’t think so. In fact, he was generally despised by the ruling religious elite.
Jesus had that God in human flesh thing going for him, he is the living word, conquered death, that is good enough for me. And the statement was not about your credentials but about the credentials of the ministries of Jesus, Paul and John the Baptist and the credentials of your ministry.
Bernie,
That’s your interpretation. There’s nothing in the words, themselves, that indicate pride.
There is pride in the response. There was no, “wow, I am sorry that is not what my heart intended.” No, “I guess I could have stated it differently, no, man that did not come across well, If I offended I apologize, I meant no harm to Wendi’s character.” Here character does not even seem to matter to you. Pride comes in accusations without foundation. Pride comes in a lack of teachable accountability for your own words. Pride comes with a pontificating rebuke to Hagee or any other soap box you want to get on. Pride is saying your words are truth instead of opinion. Pride is all over your posts. Ask other if it is just my opinion.
Bernie,
It’s not a card. it’s an example. If you see a flaw in the example, point it out with scripture or logic. (concerning the Jesus, Paul and John the Baptist Card)
First of all, Paul did not leave carnage behind him everywhere. Read acts 20, is this carnage? Read his words to each church, not the words of carnage. The book of acts is not filled with his carnage, unless you are comparing yourself to the pre- Christ Paul.
Second, each time you make the statement you do so in a way that indicates that you are in alignment with these three and those who disagree with you are in disagreement with the big three. You impugn the character of people who disagree, you make all disagreement against you a disagreement with the big three.
John 3:36 that is the rudest post to date I have read at MMI.
Todd Rhoades on Wed, November 22, 2006
John 3:36,
Thanks for the words of encouragement.
You know, I’ve never proported to be a seminarian; a senior pastor; or anything else. I’ve not held myself up to anyone here. Matter of fact, all this blog is about is me finding things that I find interesting and sharing them.
It’s actually humbling that God (or Satan, whoever you think is behind this blog) would use a 42 year old ex-worship pastor in any way whatsoever, little alone with something like blog like MMI.
And, (here’s the good part), since you (John 3:36) do not see me or MMI as a legitimate resource, then I’d say there’s a high probability that you’ve had your last word here at this website.
Everyone… say goodbye to John 3:36.
Todd
Wendi on Wed, November 22, 2006
John 3:39 – I agree with Leonard, that was an absolutely rude and inappropriate post. And it is in error. Todd never claims to be the “go-to” ministry guy and rarely offers resources for us, although he sometimes writes articles for our consideration. Rather, he gathers plenteous resources into this one place from hundreds of sources, people who are very credentialed to be read and considered by us.
Aaron’s earlier post (everyone should go back and reread it), shows the value of having an article like this at our fingertips. The subject of Saddleback and PDL’s re-focusing triggered an important staff discussion. How do we know when God is redirecting our ministry and use of resources, how should we respond honorable to redirection when people’s livelihoods are affected, etc.?
So besides being rude, your comment shows your ignorance to the value of MMI.
Wendi
Leonard on Wed, November 22, 2006
Does anyone else feel like they just fought a war? Todd, I appreciate MMI. I read nearly every post there is and your finding things has been a great value to my ministry. If my comments have been out of line today I apologize and ask forgiveness. The Bernie’s, 3:36’s and Ricky’s of the world are so often what wears the souls of good people down. They can clearly state everything they are against, have very little discernment and are the very representation of what nearly killed the faith of many of my family. My passion gets in front of my words when dealing with this kind of person, so again, if I have wronged someone I apologize and I would personally apologize should any I hurt contact me.
Wendi on Wed, November 22, 2006
Yes Leonard, if not a war . . . at least an exhausting battle. I’ve been trying to do some writing and keep getting drawn in every time another response shows up. Nothing you said seemed out of line or inappropriate or rude, but in fact your intent appears to be a desire to help. Of course I agree with you and you were defending my character from Bernie’s assaults.
I want to chime in with Leonard though. I know exactly how I want to come across as I type words to add to these discussions. I want to sound graceful and honoring even of those people with whom I disagree, even if I occasionally add sarcasm. But I have no way of knowing how I’m actually being perceived. Blog-accountability and feedback is tremendously valuable to me, especially when it comes to the perception others have of my words. So please call me out if my comments if I ever sound mean, rude, or graceless; if I’m not being helpful or Christlike. I think that is how we can “spur one another on to love and good deeds” though cyber space.
Wendi
Bernie of FreeGoodNews.com on Wed, November 22, 2006
Todd said to Bernie:
“I think a friend reading your every word here could be a valuable insight for you as well. “
Todd, my Board of Directors is well aware of my articles at my blog. Don’t you think I write the same way and in the same manner? Check it out. In fact, my blog is more “raw” than what’s here, because you delete the examples I give, whereas my blog contains them.
Leonard said that Paul didn’t leave any “carnage” behind, as Wendi said I would if I don’t change my ways. Here’s Paul’s “carnage,” in the sense that I see Wendi using the word. Paul was very much into preaching liberation frm the law. In fact, this is what led up to his death, when he got arrested by Jews in his visit to Jerusalem. Ever wonder how the Jewish Christians lived there in peace, but when Paul gets there, he is immediately arrested and even murder was attempted at him? Also, what “carnage” did he face when he confronted Peter to his faith because of Peter’s hypocrisy? What carnage did Paul get for preaching against false idols—that one really hurt the idol-maker’s union and business potential.
Wendy- thanks for supplying scripture. Let me address one, in the interest of space, your first one. You gave (Matt 7:1-5), about the eye-plank. When I said to give scripture, I also meant to please explain how it applies. I think I obeyed this verse. Did you read the whole thing? The second part is: “first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.” I think I did that. I’m not a hypocrite—I have good financial stewardship and don’t have the problems that I accuse others of having. I’ve been there, done that. No, Leonard, that is not bragging or pride, just trying to state the facts as I see them.
“Judge not, lest you be judged byth same standard.” That goes back to my post about Todd, saying it was a no-brainer to know that people would ask about my finances if I criticised others. I’m afraid most Pastors don’t want you asking these questions, so they won’t talk about the financial abuses, under the guise of “do not judge.”
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