Should An Openly Homosexual Person Be Baptized?
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Thu, May 08, 2008
- Viewed 150
- (37) comments so far
To start off his post, Brian tells this story…
I was posed the following question by two homosexuals jointly raising a child,“Which sin is greater: continuing with the way we choose to live our lives or having one of us move out and ripping apart the only home our son has ever known?”
Here’s what I said…
“Honestly, I don’t know. I’m not God. But even if I did have a strong opinion on the matter, I wouldn’t give it to you. Do you want to know why? Because my hunch is you’re not really looking for an answer as much as you are looking for a reason to leave this church and turn your back on God. Others pastors may have given you reason to do so, but I’m not going to follow suit. You’re here for a reason, and that’s to find your way back to God. Once you do that, He’ll be the one that will help you answer that question.”
Then I hugged them both.
In my mind two more important questions lurked behind the question they asked:
1. Will this pastor guy treat our sin any differently than the other searching non-believers in the Bible study that went home to continue to embezzle money for their employer, look at porn on their computers or abuse prescription drugs?
2. Can I really trust God?
The second question is probably the most important. It’s hard to fathom how hard it is for a struggling homosexual to darken the doors of a church building, let alone contemplate turning their lives over to a deity who is going to ask for radical, painful change. That takes a great leap of faith; probably more than most heterosexual people were required to exercise before they became Christians.
The real issue for me comes down to this: How can we expect any non-believer to truly have a heart for the ways of God BEFORE conversion?
You can read the rest of Brian’s post here as it relates to baptism...
What do you think? Would you agree with Brian’s thoughts or would you tackle this thing totally differently? Let’s hear what you have to say…
I had the opportunity to meet Brian Jones a few weeks ago in Florida. Brian says, on his blog, that he's an 'average guy', but he's writing some great stuff over at BrianJones.com. Recently, he's been doing a series on homosexuality, and in one of his latest posts, he asks the question of whether or not an openly homosexual person should be baptised.
Comments
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fishon on Thu, May 08, 2008
Lots of good pros and cons.
And I find it interesting to read the “finger wagger” accuser “finger wagging.”
And the question was:::Should An Openly Homosexual Person Be Baptized?
And Peter said, “Repent and be….”
In spite of all the wonderful reasonings for baptizing an “OPENLY” Homosexual person, I will go along with the Apostle Peter’s direction.
fishon
A. Sinner on Thu, May 08, 2008
Isn’t this an argument for baptizing babies?
Greed—the fact that our nation worships the almighty dollar through our embracing of dog-eat-dog capitalism—is scripturally more contrary to the teachings of Jesus than homosexuality. Yet openly greedy people are baptized all the time. How many people repent of their greed and thirst for money?
And good point about the military. How can killing innocent women and children in the US be a capital offense but just a simple consequence of war in another country? Do we think that Jesus would draw that distinction?
When we start ranking sins, and basing baptism on our ranking of those sins, we play God.
fishon on Thu, May 08, 2008
Sinner,
That is why I will stick with Peter. “Repent…, and I believe it is not a stretch to assume Peter meant “repent” of whatever sin it is the individual is in need of repenting of. Peter did not qualify his instruction by saying this sin or that sin, but the inference is of any sin.
It does seem to me that you are coming close to doing what you claim others to do: “When we start ranking sins…”, and yet you stated:::::“Greed—the fact that our nation worships the almighty dollar through our embracing of dog-eat-dog capitalism—is scripturally more contrary to the teachings of Jesus than homosexuality.”———Sounds like you are ranking sin my friend.
fishon
Jermayn Parker on Thu, May 08, 2008
The Pastors response was amazing, very mature and in touch with God. Its Gods job to convict them of their sin, not ours. Our job it to create a place with prayer, worship etc for God to move.
Peter Hamm on Fri, May 09, 2008
fishon,
Paul seems to me to have maybe ranked some sins, to be honest. And Greed seems to be at the top of the list, as it is equated with idolatry.
A. Sinner has a VERY good point, imho.
Daniel on Fri, May 09, 2008
The heart of the question is of course what it means to baptized an ‘openly homosexual’ person. Many ‘openly homosexual’ Christians are also celibate. So I say, baptize ‘em! If ‘openly homosexual’ on the other hand means “I’m a practicing gay and I ain’t budgin’”… then there’s at least a problem.
My two cents,
-Daniel-
[DanielR, I do not mean to imply that one cannot be a Christian and be in the military. A number of my family members are knee deep in this contry’s war-making machine. My point was simply that military service is inconsistent with Jesus’ requirements of discipleship—a fact the Church recognized until Constantine. But of course inconsistency is something many Christians learn to live with (I am, no doubt, not an exception to this rule). I don’t want to rehash the debate over violence here, save to say the joy and fervor with which U.S. Christians fight in politicians’ wars, and kill other Christians around the world for U.S. national interests, is nothing short of appalling to me. But I’m an Anabaptist, so I’m the minority here, not you. I know that.
-Peace-]
fishon on Fri, May 09, 2008
Peter,
I would go a step further, and say, I do believe that the Bible ranks [for lose of a better word] sins. Jesus seems to indicate that a sin against a child is worse than…’ (Matt. 18:6).
I may be branded a heretic, but I believe that an unrepentant pedophile will suffer at the hands of God more than the unrepentant gossip.
So much more to say, but will not carry on.
fishon
Ray on Mon, May 12, 2008
This whole question amazes me… This is a cheapening of the gospel. We absolutely should love everyone. And our churches should be open to those searching for Christ, regardless of their sins. But to baptize someone is to publicly recognize their commitment to following Christ. The same Christ who told his followers to leave everything behind. The same Christ who told the rich man to sell everything and give to the poor. No, we shouldn’t judge the world, but yes we need to hold up standards for Christians. Otherwise we’ll have hordes of people with no relationship with Christ convinced that they’re headed for heaven because they’ve “said the prayer” and been baptized. If pastors don’t call people to repentance and insist on discipleship, how can the Church claim to be Christian???
Dave on Tue, May 13, 2008
For most of my military career I served under the well known motto, “Peace is our Profession.” The same motto that law enforcement officers and policeman use as they serve the common good of “keeping the peace” in our communities. Law breakers either at the community level or the worldwide level require restraint. A few good men at the local level serve a community well. World-wide restraint of evil doers requires a national military force. We serve our nation well and the cause of freedom when we sacrifice our lives in military service. It is truly a service of love and we are happy to use our Spiritual gifts in that way.
Thea McKee on Wed, May 14, 2008
Two thoughts: First, I don’t get the military thing either and second, let’s stop dancing around the elephant in the room, shall we? Do you all really think that gay couples have sex like rabitts all the time? Please. Sadly, like most people, ( I am a married, heterosexual female—just FYI) we may go for too LOOONG a time without engaging in relations. Do ya’ll really think that gay couples are gettin’ their groove on every night? Good Lord in heaven, what is this, “immoral, lifestyle” that keeps being quoted?
I also know of three gay couples who live together, claim to be celibate, have seperate rooms and raise their children together for financial reasons. Gay, but no lifestyle.
Yesterday, I sat with a woman while she tearfully recounted how her fine, elder in the church, pillar of the community-HETEROSEXUAL- daddy had been raping her and her younger siblings for years before he died.
Who in the eyes of God caused heartache to the least of these? I sincerly doubt that it would be the gay couple providing a stable loving home. No, the pillar of the community, hetersexual daddy who spent years raping his daughter and left her with a pysche & soul which is now scarred and battered. That is the soul for whom the Master weeps.
Maybe we should stop debating the woulda, coulda, shouldas and start talking about real people who are hurting. And ask ourselves, if the Master was presented this soul to tend, how would he minister to them? And how are we called to minister in His stead?
Just my 2 cents—for free
leonard on Wed, May 14, 2008
thea I appreciate what you are saying but I think these are different subjects
GR Guy on Wed, May 14, 2008
A Sinner,
One reason why people make a bigger deal out of homosexuality is that
GREED is an attitude which in many cases is harder to make a judgement on. (just because someone has a lot of money or possessions doesn’t make him greedy. It’s how he uses those with regard to others).
HOMOSEXUALITY is more of an identifiable behavior.
Probably not fair but yes, both are sin.
James on Thu, May 15, 2008
I have sat here and debated for 10 minutes as to whether I should respond to this… but I simply can’t let it go.
Daniel, you are very quick to point out the ills and errors of this nation’s “war-making machine”; you call out for radical change in people in various vocations to come out of those areas as they go through their process of discipleship, no doubt indicating that they are maturing in Christ; and yet, you make a distinction between “practicing homosexual” and one of “homosexual orientation.”
I pray that I am completely wrong in my understanding of your intention, but certainly you don’t mean to say that one is able to be “born gay.” The question of whether or not “openly gay” people should be baptized aside (and I do love the way that the Brian handled it. That was both tactful and revolutionary.), with this statement - if I understand your intention correctly, and I hope, as I said, that I am woefully mistaken - you come within a hairs breadth of saying that homosexuality is a perfectly acceptable lifestle choice because, after all if “This is how God made me” and “I was born this way” are justifiers of a lifestyle, then certainly those same statements can be used to justify a person’s decision to not come out of what the Bible declares, definitively, as a sin.
If I misunderstand you, then ignore 98% of what I said here.
James
DanielR on Thu, May 15, 2008
James, this is a different Daniel than who you addressed your question to.
Daniel stated that “homosexual behavior is not the same as a homosexual orientation.” I think one question is what constitutes being homosexual? Is it orientation (feelings or attraction to members of the same gender) or is it behavior? Which constitutes sin that, as you say, the Bible declares, definitively as sin?
If it is behavior that is the sin, then someone of homosexual orientation who chooses to be celibate would not really be any more of a sinner (in this area) than a heterosexual person who chooses to be celibate until they get married. And Daniel says baptize ‘em.
If, on the other hand, you believe that homosexual orientation (feelings of attraction to the same gender or however you define it) then the question gets a little stickier. Is homosexual orientation worse than a heterosexual with lustful orientation if neither acts upon what they feel?
You are correct; “This is how God made me” and “I was born this way” are justifiers of a lifestyle. I think the question of whether a person of a certain “orientation” was “made that way” or “born that way” is a rabbit hole best avoided. We are ALL sinful, we live in a fallen world and we all sin.
The argument some people make that they are sinful by nature (because God made them that way) doesn’t excuse the sin. Not for homosexuals, not for men who cheat on their wives and say men are genetically wired to try and procreate with as many women as possible, not for any sin. So I think the question comes back to what constitutes sin when it comes to the question of homosexuality.
helen on Fri, May 16, 2008
i can not see where god made anyone a homosexual, or a murderer, or anything that causes us to sin, we were made in the likeness of god, and i have never read in his word where he made us anything like that, i think it was when satan got in the garden and in the minds and spirit of adam and eve is when this sin got started, god is in the saving buisness not in the sinning buisness,so in my personal openion i think we should put the blame on satan not our god and savior jesus christ, it would not make sense to make my children sin then blame them for what i had made them do. but i know that god will save any sinner, that is why jesus came, he suffered and died for that purpose, a sinner is a sinner, there are greater sins than others, but come judgement day if a sinner did not get saved ,then there is one place they will be going, jesus took the sin on his own body, he did not take the sinner on his on body, he took the sin, all sin. so there is no use condeming the sinner they are already condemed , they need a savior, not a condemmer. god said he would judge the sinner, but god gave the pastors the authority to judge sin in the body of christ, a pastor looks out for our soul, he is held accountable by god , so a pastor has the right to make decisions on our behalf. an for him to allow a sinner to be baptized befour they are saved is not very accountable. that is any sinner , god has no respect of person and neither should a pastor. i know i cant say things as well as most of you but i can say what is in my heart.
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