Suicide at The Crystal Cathedral
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Thu, February 19, 2009
- Viewed 62
- (20) comments so far
The article continues:
Betty Spicer, a volunteer greeter at the cathedral, said that when the man walked in, the sanctuary was nearly empty except for a group of Canadian tourists.
“I said, ‘Good morning, welcome to the Crystal Cathedral.’ “ She asked the man, “Where are you from?” He replied, “Oh, from around here.” He handed Spicer a folded note written with a felt-tip pen. Tucked into the middle of the note was his driver’s license and what appeared to be a business card. As Smick was walking down the aisle, she began reading the note, which referred to a truck in the parking lot and a gun.
“The next minute, there was a pop,” Spicer said. “I thought he was praying. I didn’t realize he had shot himself.”
Yvette Manson, another volunteer, said she was talking to the tourists when she heard a sound that she likened to the noise from a firecracker. “I had just been telling them about the suicide prevention ministry we have.”
Pastor Juan Carlos Ortiz said the shooting was tragic, but may have revealed something about Smick’s faith.
“This must be a person who believes in God because he went to the foot of the cross,” Ortiz said.
You can read more here at the LA Times...
The Crystal Cathedral is going through a rough time... and now the L. A. Times is reporting: "A man walked into the Crystal Cathedral in Garden Grove on Wednesday, knelt down at the foot of a cross and fatally shot himself in the head.
The man entered the sanctuary about 9:40 a.m. and gave a handwritten note to a church volunteer. He then walked to the front of the pews, knelt before the cross and removed a semiautomatic handgun from his backpack.
Comments
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Daniel on Tue, February 24, 2009
Peter—as I understand, the Hebrew is a matter of some debate; but I’ll readily grant the point that the ancient Hebrews had no issues with killing in general (e.g. animal sacrifices, capital punishment, war, etc.), so the de facto practice was a ban on ‘murder’. Murder can be easily defined as ‘morally objectionable killing’, but then the question becomes ‘what is morally objectionable and why?’
Since the rationale assumed and given in the comments above is that suicide is morally objectionable killing insofar as it assumes a right only God has (presumably, the right to take a human life), I fail to see how the reasoning behind the prohibition of suicide is compatible with the forms of killing you identify as ‘not murder’ (’just’ war, self-defense, etc.). And yet these forms of killings are ones Christians are typically fine with.
I’m just looking for an explanation of the inconsistency on suicide (not war or whatever—that conversation has been had before).
As a pacifist, I am struggling to find the internal consistency of the non-pacifist Christian view that categorically disallows suicide but doesn’t categorically disallow killing other human beings. Any thoughts?
Peace,
-Daniel-
CS on Tue, February 24, 2009
Daniel:
“As a pacifist, I am struggling to find the internal consistency of the non-pacifist Christian view that categorically disallows suicide but doesn’t categorically disallow killing other human beings. Any thoughts?”
I think something that might help is to take a larger view of what God commanded as far as motives for the ending of a life.
We know that there were many circumstances in which God explicitly commanded death for some people, and even the manner in which this death should occur. This included death by stoning for bestiality, for instance. So, clearly, there were certain instances in which God not only allows death, but even sanctions it.
What God never allows is murder. That is, the sinful and artificial ending of human life prematurely. These would be outside of the sanctioning of what God commands. We can even see what sort of situation may qualify as murder by even taking a look at Jesus’ statements on the Sermon on The Mount about murderous thoughts. And murder can even be committed against oneself.
As I recall, there are five instances of suicide within the Bible. And using those demonstratively, none are ordered by God. Each was wrapped in a sinful situation. So, we get no bearing that God would ever want someone to kill himself in any situation.
This is how I reconcile suicide with not being compatible with other forms of the ending of human life. I realize I may have left some gaps here, but it should provide a general understanding.
—
CS
Peter Hamm on Tue, February 24, 2009
Daniel:
“As a pacifist, I am struggling to find the internal consistency of the non-pacifist Christian view that categorically disallows suicide but doesn’t categorically disallow killing other human beings. Any thoughts?”
People want to say for sure that someone is cursed, that’s why. It makes us feel better sometimes I’m sorry to say.
In any case… WWJD? Or, in the case of any kind of taking of human life, what would he not do…
Wendi on Tue, February 24, 2009
Daniel et all,
I am pretty much a pacifist too (though I have trouble reconciling why I say “pretty much”). In regard to war and capital punishment, the basis for my position rests on Jesus’ words about our attitude toward enemies. I’m of the opinion that when Jesus said, “love your enemies, turn the other cheek, if he asks for your shirt, give him your coat,” He didn’t mean love some enemies, to love them some of the time, when our enemy is guiltless or isn’t much of a threat to us.
Unbelievable that any human being would comment on the salvation of someone they’ve only read about in a news clip. Shame, shame . . .
Wendi
Daniel on Thu, February 26, 2009
Thanks for the thoughts folks.
CS—I appreciate your attempt to show that the prohibition of suicide flows out of the prohibition of ‘murder’. I would like to push back on your understanding of Scripture however, since I believe the people of God are, under the New Covenant, called to new and higher standards than Jews were under the Old. But perhaps this is not the place for that conversation.
Peter and Wendi—thanks, and I agree.
Peace,
-Daniel-
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