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    The Pastor Problem

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    Pastors.

    That's the number one weakness in the modern church today. Paid pastoral leadership is the reason the church is weak, inefficient and to a point...neutered.

    Now remember, I made my living (is that what that was called?) from being a paid staff member for over 16 years. In the beginning, I felt that I was vital to the church's development and growth. That without me, the church body couldn't function. Over the years, that changed as I begin to read such books as Frank Tillipaugh's "Unleashing the Church". The goal of pastoral ministry became leading and training so that the people were equipped to do the work. That sounds like a good goal, however....

    Are we that arrogant as pastors that we think if we didn't exist that people wouldn't figure out how to have church by themselves....without our leadership? Pastors, do we think that we need to create meetings, groups and activities to keep the church people "happy" and "connected"? Do we think that believers wouldn't figure out a way to get together regularly, for sharing, communion, mutual encouragement and to share their faith stories? Do we not think that the life force of the believer, the Holy Spirit, might not be "set free" to work in and through Christ-followers to accomplish his work here on earth?

    Think about it. Whenever you pay someone to do a task or job, what are you really doing? You are asking them to take responsibility for something you don't want to do. Isn't this the American way??

    If I need my yard landscaped or manicured, I hire someone to do it for me. Problem solved. If I want my house cleaned from top to bottom, I could do it, but why when I can pay someone $60 to come in and really do it well...and then I no longer have to get on my hands and knees to clean that darn toilet grime.

    Now move this analogy to the American church. Whenever there is a job to do, we look to the person we hired to take care of it for us. To quote an article I read recently, "The pastor, by his mere presence, causes an unhealthy dependence upon himself for ministry, direction and guidance."

    Even in today's most modern of churches, those labeling themselves as "emerging", the problem persists. Recently, one young local church (let's call it ABC Church) that I followed from it's infancy, had a tough decision to make. After about three years of existence, I heard that they were deciding whether to A) keep paying the pastor or B) keep paying for a place to meet each week. My question is...why do you need either? This isn't an indictment, just a question.

    Now ABC Church was going to be "cutting edge". It's leadership from day one said that they were going to create a community independent of the "old ways" of doing church. Yet in the end, they were faced with a dilemma that all churches face...paid staff and building space. Doesn't sound very innovative to me.

    At the beginning ABC Church said they were going to set up a church in a way that "no one else was doing". I am sorry people...but that just doesn't happen unless you choose some radical departures from the "old ways".

    So here's a question. If all of the pastors in all of the churches resigned or were "let go"...what would happen? Or, to rewrite a line from the old Beatles song...."Imagine there's no pastors. It's easy if you try!"

    Would the church flourish or struggle? If you choose flourish then why do we have pastors? If you choose struggle, then how well are our pastors truly doing their jobs of "equipping, training and leading" their congregations?

    Before all of my pastor friends send me hate mail, I don't think it is all your fault. I think the church culture has caused you to function as CEO's and not pastors. We need you to resign yourself as the CEO's of your church or ministry. As fast as you can run away from treating the church as a business. Leave your church meetings, your planning sessions, your growth conferences, and go and interact with far from God people where they are - outside of your church. Stop bearing the burden of whether your church offering or attendance is what it should be - you just aren't that important!

    Start encouraging your congregations to stop coming to so many church meetings and ask them to get involved in the local community activities outside of the church. Asking them to do both is only burning them out. And asking them to make a choice is only making them feel guilty. Encourage them to immerse themselves in their "work culture" and to get to know their co-workers and become their friends...not so they can convert them...but because all people need friends.

    Finally, please stop asking us to bring our "unchurched friends" to your church to fill the empty seats around us. Do you actually know how difficult it is to get someone who is seriously "far from God" to come to church? By asking us to do this, you imply that the only way we can truly make a difference in someone's life is by getting them to the church building.

    I have asked for all pastors to resign...and for some of you, that may be the radical change you need to actually get in touch with your own identity outside of the church system. But for others, it may just be that you need to "resign" yourself emotionally and become the change agent that will lead the church to the reformation we so desperately need.

    What do you think?  Any validity?  I have some thoughts, but as blog owner I'll keep them to myself for the time being and share them as the discussion moves forward (if anyone's interested)...

    I’m still trying to get my arms around this whole emerging church idea.  I honestly think that much of the problem for me is that most emerging churches are emerging differently.  (Anyone else get that feeling?)  Anyway, I’m trying to read as many different perspectives as I can.  Here’s one I found interesting. According to this emergent writer, the pastors are the problem.  Read this, and give me your perspective.  Does the writer make any valid points in your opinion?  (You can read his full post here if you like)…

    Comments

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    1. BeHim on Thu, July 14, 2005

      I feel the discussion is more geared around what should pastors (say Timothy or Titus for example) do.


      The majority of pastors revolve around “The Purpose Driven Life” [emergent or relevant movement] being taught EVERYWHERE - baptist, IC, non-denom, AG, even catholic and methodist and are doing what this blogger and others see as the major disconnect from Scripture (although I’ll consent there are some pastors here that are not going towards this “movement” - praise God).

      The pastor should be training elders (some who become pastors) and deacons (some who become elders) and teaching/preaching the Word of God to all (the Believers in the pew and the unbelievers who the Spirit has drawn) which contains The Gospel in every single 1187 chapters.  This training (instruction) takes the form of doctrine in correction and conduct in reproof for edification in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.


      The majority of churches have moved away from this (and other things - like the sin of man - which is to say ‘a different gospel’ but that’s another topic) and directly into being married to the world (which is exactly what the church of Corinth [Pergamos] and Leadocea did - note the key to their redemption is REPENT).  In the form of “I am leader you follow me” and “CEO’s needed”.  It’s become corporate churchianity with the head, while growing in the measurement of man, in direct contradiction to Scripture.

    2. Ricky on Thu, July 14, 2005

      Quote:


      “The pastor should be training elders (some who become pastors) and deacons (some who become elders)...”


      Sorry, but this “the pastor” stuff is just not supported by Scripture.  In fact, elders and deacons have more support than the title of “pastor.”

      Paul didn’t appoint “pastors” in the churches but elders, mature believers whose lives exemplified the gospel.  These elders’ were commissioned to guard the flock from heresies and divisions but were never to take the “lead role” of a ficticious office such as “pastor.”

       

      They were to teach and to influence the younger more immature believers UNTIL they became mature and influenced and guarded the younger believers.  They were not to be the leaders but ended up leading from behind as they, as exemplifed by Paul’s attitude toward the churches, were to let the believers learn together what it meant to be led by the Spirit and not by a man or men.


      Quote:


      “...and teaching/preaching the Word of God to all (the Believers in the pew and the unbelievers who the Spirit has drawn)”


      Which is one of the major problems with the role of “pastor:” the believers are still in the pews!

       

      Why?  Because they’ve become dependent little children who look to a man to feed them God’s word when they are well able to read, pray, listen encourage, et al, themselves.


      Unfortunately, while most men who call themselves “pastor” have a genuine desire to see God’s people grow, it is their very presence that hinders such maturity by continuing to bottle-feed the believers instead of “kicking them out of the nest (pew).”  Seeking to grow believers, “pastors” have done nothing but create a dependent class of believers whose faith is built more on what a man says than God’s word.

       

      It’s time for honest introspection in the view of God’s word regarding the practice of creating titles and positions that have no Scriptural foundation and to seek the ability to admit that we’ve hindered God’s work instead of increase it.

       

    3. Eddie on Thu, July 14, 2005

      wow!  my hats off to you ricky, i couldn’t have said it better myself.  i got an email telling me about this thread and i was going to chime in but it looks like you have things covered just fine http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif

    4. The Godfather on Thu, July 14, 2005

      -RULES FOR THIS BLOG-


      1.INSERT LONG QUOTE (OR MANY OF THEM)


      2.ACT LIKE YOU KNOW RICK WARREN PERSONALLY


        EX; “SO, YEAH ME AND RW WERE CHILLIN..”


      3.BE AN EMERGENT ADDICT


      4.REFER TO OTHER BLOGERS WITH NAMES USED BACK IN THE DAY.  “HEY WHINY.”

      5.BE STOKED & TAKE PRIDE IN YOUR “PASTOR” TITLE, IT’S THE CHURCH BLING, SO FLAUNT IT!


      6.LISTEN TO GUNS & ROSES.  OKAY THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS.


      7.YOU ORIGALLY HAD A DREAM OF BEING A CEO OF A MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR COMPANY, BUT DIDN’T MAKE IT.

       

      SCP KEEP IT UP…

       

    5. BeHim on Thu, July 14, 2005

      Now that is funny.


      Funny hmmmm not funny haha.

    6. Steve on Fri, July 15, 2005

      Hey everyone, just for clarification again, I am Steve, the original writer of “The Pastor Problem” that Todd so graciously posted here.

      I said I would comment here further and react to some of your comments, but that seems a little superfluous.


      So if you like, head on over to stupidchurchpeople.com where you can read all of my blogs, get a full-flavor as to who I am and what I am about. Sure the name of my site and the podcasts are a little inflammatory on the surface, but I think if you hang in there, it might make some sense. And you do not have to agree…that’s the beautiful thing about dialogue. I am not even certain if I agree with everything I say all the time…it’s just all part of the process. I hope this can be appreciated.


      I will certainly continue the dialogue online, or via email or however you might choose to do so. Take care!

       

    7. dorsey on Fri, July 15, 2005

      BeHim,


      C’mon. That was definitely funny haha as well as funny hmmm.

      —————


      Everyone,


      Follow Steve’s advice. Go over to StupidChurchPeople.com and read all his posts. The Podcast is hilarious (but sometimes over the top, so beware—I recommend the Benny Hinn-cast). I don’t think you’re getting the full picture of where he’s coming from if you only read this one post.


      Peace.

       

    8. eddie on Tue, July 19, 2005

      These guys deserve no time whatsoever as their website indicts them altogether.  They have no idea what they are speaking of and anyone who would embrace them had better take a look at their website first.

      I am all for good discussion, but the one who initiates the discussion must be valid.  I give these guys no credit nor validity at all; therefore I will end this commentary.


      (stupidchurchpeople.com)

       

    9. dorsey on Wed, July 20, 2005

      huh?

    10. Anne on Sun, September 11, 2005

      The Church today has Hirelings.(Businessmen)  What the Church needs is a Shepherd…... Who cares about bigger and better buildings, more real estate, cruises,programs out the wazoo???


      There are a lot of hurting people out there and the Church is missing the mark…There is a Church on every corner, like 7-11’s, but our country is broken and hurting with no place to get help. There are churches with acres of property and parking lots, but those churches only have one service on Sundays.  The rest of the time the church is closed.  Any meetings are scheduled at homes of the church members…Some pastors have non-pub phone numbers…So, has the Church lost its focus? Yes, most definitely….

    11. Steve on Mon, September 12, 2005

      So here’s a question. If all of the pastors in all of the churches resigned or were “let go”...what would happen? Or, to rewrite a line from the old Beatles song….“Imagine there’s no pastors. It’s easy if you try!”


      Half-way thru your essay I came upon this little gem of a paragraph. I stopped and pondered. “This is wrong!” I said to myself; then continued reading.


      First let me inform you that I found this essay over in the forums of : http://www.3dff.com/php/viewtopic.php?t=1038 . I am not sure if you have knowledge of this type of posting or if you gave permission?

      Second “Imagine” was written by John Lennon, and he was not part of the Beatles when he wrote it and sang it. That is why I stopped and exclaimed, “This is wrong.” It is a minor item, but it caused me to doubt the balance of your arguments against “Do we need Pastor’s.”


      First rebuttal. If we do not have an organized team in place, how are normal duties of caring for the widows, etc. demanded by Christ carried out? I point to Acts, and the appointment of Stephen as a “leader” in this area. The First Century leaders quickly understood the huge ramifications of Christ’s decree.


      I tend to hear the answer to this as: “In small groups, this is handled more efficiently.”


      I would tend to agree with the exception that human ego still is in small groups and in-fighting is a natural by-product of that ego. The larger structures tend to remove the ego problem but instills another problem: “it removes the personal touch.”


      Second rebuttal: “Start encouraging your congregations to stop coming to so many church meetings and ask them to get involved in the local community.”

       

      Since when is the local community “different” from that of the “church” community?


      A certain mentality arose from the Roman persecution and then from the Catholic onslaught that followed… That mentality was to huddled together in small bands to avoid detection from the big bad Romans and later big bad Catholics. This “banding together” for a common cause, still is with us today. Personalities arose from this and all manner of “banding” for the wrong reason took place.


      “Pastoral” types today need, more than ever, to see how vital an organized base is needed.  Not for the “Sunday go to meeting” service but for the service of small groups. All small groups then assemble for a weekly celebration of God. The community then becomes you and I working together for Christ. Christ then becomes the community that He planed.


      Will firing all paid staff stop all ego problems of man? No.


      Can the “emerging church” in its fight to emerge, live with and within the community as it stands, without constant vocal dispute. Working inside to rebuild rather than deconstruct?

       

      This is a question I wonder about.


      Reformation from personalities is completely needed but is that God’s desire? Do we really need to deconstruct everything. I think not.


      I generally like the Themed message approach as set up in the ancient Jewish synagogues; a general reading of the Bible scriptural writings with an interpretation of that writing. An understanding that interpretation is possible and desirable has been removed from today’s message…it is either black or white…This is the personalities problem we have. God has given some individuals enormous leadership qualitative authority; others just have the egos that claim it.


      Seeking the Kingdom of God means, we are to reject the works of man. Man’s ego hates the latter portion of the equation. However, we should embrace rejection of man in his natural state. We just flat out do not teach this.


      Small groups, building small groups, leading to a larger celebration of God. Political speeches from the general leaders thrown out…


      This is only a fast thought response built and written as I go… therefore, there are many open spots exposed for debate.

       

      Debates like the Stoics or Greek philosophical debate, for knowledge sake, is not needed.


      Debate which gives gory to God is desired.


      Now back to why red flags were thrown on the Imagine lyrics. If we can not get the basic facts right, how can we proceed with new ones. Imagine was released in Sept. 1971, the official breakup date for the Beatles, 1970.


      What do you think?  Any validity?  I have some thoughts, but as blog owner I’ll keep them to myself for the time being and share them as the discussion moves forward (if anyone’s interested)…

       

      Well, in a nutshell a very small start. I am interested and maybe completely wrong in my viewpoint.. but viewpoints need to be aired, thanks for letting me rant a little.

       

    12. LeVaN on Fri, November 03, 2006

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