Monday Morning Insights

Photo of Todd
    .

    Today’s Buzz:  Ugly Pastor Divorce; There’s Hope in Laodicea; a New Survey Tool; an

    Bookmark and Share

    Preacher Divorce to Get Ugly… Really Ugly
    Well, Juanita Bynum allowed her lawyers to file for divorce from Bishop Thomas Weeks after the stomping and beating incident at an Atlanta area hotel last month.  But now, the Bishop is fighting back, saying he will contest the divorce.  Randy Kessler, one of Weeks’ attorneys, said they are considering whether the counterclaim will accuse Bynum of cruel treatment, the charge her divorce petition levels at Weeks.  “Cruel treatment is a very vague legal term,” Kessler said. “There’s a possibility that there’s cruel treatment on both sides, but we’re not committed to that position.” That’s lawyer-ease for, ‘yeah, but she was mean too.’ What a black eye on the Body of Christ (no pun intended).  Source.

    Slice Update, and a Prediction
    Ingrid wrote on her personal blog today, “I am not ruling out a future blog presence that is heavy on issues at all, but am needing to take some time here to weigh what I need to be doing right now and to ask the Lord for His guidance on this.” A prediction:  that’s King James for “I’ll be back”.  In the meantime, she’s renamed her personal blog ”Hope in Laodicea”, and it will feature items of “encouragement and edification”.

    MyChurchSurvey.com—Anybody Used It Yet?
    MyChurchSurvey.com has opened an easier route for church leaders to get feedback from congregants and new visitors through pre-built template surveys specifically designed for churches.  From a visitor satisfaction survey to one that assesses the spiritual growth of long-time members, surveys have become a widely used tool for church leaders to better understand the people in the pews and implement any changes in response.  “The idea was to give them an easy-to-use application that would help them better understand people, their needs and their desires from the churches they attend,” said Dwight Smith, president and creator of MyChurchSurvey.com, said in an announcement about the launch of the Texas-based company in July.  Source.  Anybody tried this yet?

    Another Pistol Packin’ Pastor
    A Danish pastor has been arrested on suspicion of shooting his neighbour’s pet dog, broadcaster TV2 reported Monday. The alleged shooting occurred Friday in the town of Gudme on the island of Funen. A female neighbour filed a complaint alleging that the pastor fired through her frontdoor with a shotgun. The dog, a poodle, survived the incident despite being hit by several pellets. The woman was not at home at the time of the incident. “I fear I will be next, since it is a psycho’s action,” the woman told TV2. The pastor faces charges of damages, violating gun laws and harming an animal. Source.


    Courtesy of CartoonChurch.com

    In today's buzz... The Bishop Weeks / Juanita Bynum divorce takes an ugly turn; and update on Slice (which will now not be Slice at all, but rather offer hope, encouragement, and edification); A new church survey tool; and yet another pistol packin' pastor. Oh... and what IS he pointing at? All that in today's buzz...

    Comments

    if you want a Globally Recognized Avatar (the images next to your profile) get them here. Once you sign up, they will displayed on any website that supports them.

    1. Randy Ehle on Thu, September 13, 2007

      I just spent some time over at Ingrid’s blog, and want to suggest that we MMI readers - who are often at odds with Ingrid’s views and methods - ought to pray for her.  It seems that the demise of Slice (apparetnly due to some confusion between Ipower and her former webmaster) came at a time when Ingrid was doing some prayerful reevaluation of her work.  It strikes me that on this site, the overall tone of comments related to Ingrid and Slice lacks the type of grace that we offer to unbelievers.  That doesn’t mean we get mean and nasty, start calling names, or flat out condemn as unbiblical or heretical (though we’ve probably seen some of those, too); rather, we’re just a little graceless…in a nice way, of course!

      One of the things we tend to react most against with Ingrid is when she goes down that road of calling someone unbiblical or heretical.  That gets under our skin; we don’t like it, and we react with words that sometimes don’t represent Jesus too well.  But isn’t what Ingrid says pretty similar to what Jesus said to or about the religious leaders of his day?  “You whitewashed tombs….”  “You brood of vipers….”  “Hypocrites!”  I don’t particularly like having things like that said about me.  I doubt anyone does.  And when I’ve been up on my own high horse, calling out people whose words and behavior don’t seem to represent Christ very well…man, that gets tiring to me.  Believe me, I’ve fought those battles, and they are draining. 

       

      So, as Ingrid takes some time away from Slice and does some more encouraging, restful, upbeat reflecting at Hope for Laodicea, let’s keep her in our prayers, and let’s pray specifically that she would truly hear God.  And if he leads her back to the type of work that she’s done in the past with Slice, let’s not be too quick to jump into the fray against her.

       

    2. Peter Hamm on Thu, September 13, 2007

      Amen Randy!

    3. Camey on Thu, September 13, 2007

      mychurchsurvey.com - nope, haven’t used it yet… did forward it though…

    4. Leonard on Thu, September 13, 2007

      Randy, what makes opposition to Ingrid lack grace?  I am not saying we should call names but I am wondering how she got elevated to Jesus level in her harshness.  I agree we should pray and have done so but I am not sure I agree with the lack of grace comment, can you elaborate please?  Thanks.  If you care to do this here I am fine or feel free to e-mail me at [removed]
      //<![CDATA[
      var l=new Array();
      l[0]=’>’;l[1]=‘a’;l[2]=’/’;l[3]=’<’;l[4]=’ 116’;l[5]=’ 101’;l[6]=’ 110’;l[7]=’ 46’;l[8]=’ 116’;l[9]=’ 115’;l[10]=’ 97’;l[11]=’ 99’;l[12]=’ 109’;l[13]=’ 111’;l[14]=’ 99’;l[15]=’ 64’;l[16]=’ 111’;l[17]=’ 101’;l[18]=’ 107’;l[19]=’ 115’;l[20]=’ 111’;l[21]=’ 101’;l[22]=’ 108’;l[23]=’>’;l[24]=’”’;l[25]=’ 116’;l[26]=’ 101’;l[27]=’ 110’;l[28]=’ 46’;l[29]=’ 116’;l[30]=’ 115’;l[31]=’ 97’;l[32]=’ 99’;l[33]=’ 109’;l[34]=’ 111’;l[35]=’ 99’;l[36]=’ 64’;l[37]=’ 111’;l[38]=’ 101’;l[39]=’ 107’;l[40]=’ 115’;l[41]=’ 111’;l[42]=’ 101’;l[43]=’ 108’;l[44]=’:’;l[45]=‘o’;l[46]=‘t’;l[47]=‘l’;l[48]=‘i’;l[49]=‘a’;l[50]=‘m’;l[51]=’”’;l[52]=’=’;l[53]=‘f’;l[54]=‘e’;l[55]=‘r’;l[56]=‘h’;l[57]=‘a ‘;l[58]=’<’;
      for (var i = l.length-1; i >= 0; i=i-1){
      if (l.substring(0, 1) == ’ ‘) [removed](”&#”+unescape(l.substring(1))+”;”);
      else [removed](unescape(l));
      }
      //]]>
      [removed]

    5. Randy Ehle on Thu, September 13, 2007

      Answering Leo’s question, “what makes opposition to Ingrid lack grace?”  This isn’t as easy a question to answer as I first thought it would be, so thank you for asking it and making me really think.  In fact, I decided to do a search on MMI for Ingrid’s name to take a look at some of the comments about her…and quite honestly (and humbly), I see a fairly remarkable even-handedness. 


      That said, however, let me restate, then explain, my original comment:  “ the overall tone of comments related to Ingrid and Slice lacks the type of grace that we offer to unbelievers.”  Most of us who read MMI have a pretty deep passion for unbelievers.  Because of that, I expect that our conversations with them are gentle and include lots of respectful listening (even when we disagree with what they’re saying).  We probably even make a concerted effort to try to learn more about where they’re coming from spiritually, relationally, etc., so we can understand them.  I would characterize that as a “graceful” attitude; not necessarily in the theological sense of unmerited favor, but maybe more in the sense of a ballerina doing a graceful dance.


      Having reviewed several of the comments on this site related to Ingrid and Slice of Laodicea, I’m not sure I see the same type of “grace” displayed, where we listen to her and try to understand where she’s coming from.  (One noteworthy exception is Peter Hamm, whose comments seem to almost always be filled with the balance characteristic of the grace I’m talking about; thanks for your example, brother!)  A couple examples:


      <ul><li>“I wouldn’t pray for it…............but I certainly would voice my opinion…........that if Ingrid, Ken and all the CRN heresy hunters lost their internet connection….......it would be a good day in the Kingdom of God. They stir up hatred for others, all in the name of God.”- Bruce, 2/24/07


      <li>“Ingrid and her type are not into what is logical or not.  As noted above they and others like them are just out for disunity, hatred, passing on their own judgements, etc.” -Paul, 2/26/07


      <li>“VCY and their ilk are making their living (yes, there is money involved there as well) by slamming other members of the body of Christ.” - Todd, 5/29/07</ul>


      A quick comment on that last one: first, I know I’m in dangerous territory by linking our very gracious and very balanced host with a suggestion that our comments are often rather gracious.  And I’m not just trying to flatter Todd into not censoring me!  I also know that “VCY and their ilk” make money through websites that could be characterized as “slamming other members of the body of Christ.”  But taking this back to my initial comment, would you say something like that (or those other comments) to an unbeliever whom you are trying to influence for Christ?  If not, then why is it okay to say it about a fellow believer?

      Final comment, about “how [Ingrid] “got elevated to Jesus level in her harshness”:  Obviously, I made the suggestion, and again…it’s a tough question.  If I heard Jesus (a Jew) slamming other Jews the way he did (“whitewashed tombs”, etc.), would I condone it?  I DON’T THINK SO!!  So did Jesus display a lack of grace and gentleness?  I’d have to say yes!  I don’t know what to make of that.  I just listened to a message in which the pastor said that grumbling against spiritual leaders is one of the things God hates most (he was talking specifically about the Israelites and Moses/Aaron, but applied it to pastors, small group leaders, etc.).  But isn’t that exactly what Jesus was doing?!?  Man, this is tough for me, and to shed it off by saying that Jesus is God and had that right…well, that doesn’t make it any easier to know when (and how) it’s okay to challenge Christian leaders and when it’s not okay.

       

      Enough said for now.  From one bewildered follower to another….

       

    6. Eric Joppa on Thu, September 13, 2007

      Randy,


      Not wanting to invovle myself with your conversation with Leonard, you said something interesting that made me think.


      Did Jesus really show a lack of grace when talking to the pharisees (i.e. church leaders of the day)? I am not sure about this. I understand what you are saying and can see your train of thought. I just am not sure if I agree with it. And when I say I am not sure I mean I am not sure. You may be right, it made me think. If I may, here is what I think about that thought.


      Jesus did publicly attack Pharisees and called them hypocrites, but was He wrong? The grumbling that happened to Moses, was it warranted or was it just complainers complaining? I think the scriptures paint them as complainers, not people who had a point.


      I don’t want to preach here so please forgive me if that is what is coming out. I’m not sure how to make it sound if it is. But I think that grace comes to any who want it. Any who repent. The pharisees saw God in the flesh, they were the leaders of His chosen people and were so caught up in the law and their traditions that they missed Him. I think that is worthy of a little indignation on His part.


      I think that this is the thought I have had when thinking of or commenting on Slice or Ingrid (though I believe my comments have been on “those type of people” and Slice not Ingrid personally). I believe it to be the heart behind any opposition you find here of the legalism and argumentativeness that have come out of Slice.


      When it comes to believers, we should still be able to call a duck a duck. And Slice, quacks like legalism. shouldn’t we be able to say so?


      I realize this is long winded and I despereatly hope it makes sense. just my .02


      -E

    7. Phil Naessens on Thu, September 13, 2007

      Hi All,


      If you didn’t care much for Ingrid’s blog or her methods, I invite you all to have a look at mine.


      I’ve written an article on there that I would really like the Pastors that grace this site to have a look.


      God Bless You All,


      Phil Naessens

    8. Phil Naessens on Thu, September 13, 2007

      Sorry, the link to my article is here;


      http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/can-you-claim-eternal-security/


      Thanks,


      Phil Naessens

    9. Peter Hamm on Fri, September 14, 2007

      Thanks Phil.


      You do realize that it is not necessarily the theology that divides many of us from folks like Slice and Ken Silva, but it is the methodology.

    10. Leonard on Fri, September 14, 2007

      Randy,


      Thanks for responding back.  As for Ingrid and unbelievers getting grace.  If I may be so bold what you seem to be suggesting is not grace but tolerance,  You are right, from me anyway unbelievers get much more tolerance.  Heathens rage because they are heathen, why does Ingrid? 


      Here are a few reason I am not as tolerant of Ingrid as I am unbelievers.


      The cleanup I have to do from the tone of slice and such.  More times that I can count I am faced with the wounds caused by the fundamentalist legalistic rhetoric that has come out of slice.  This constant having to explain, “why yes they are Christians but…” just really narrow or just really conservative, when in reality they come across mean is exhausting. 


      A refusal to be corrected;  Ingrid has censored dissenting voices on her website for years.  Calls people the worst stuff and cries foul when criticized in return.  The dialog you insist we can have they do not want unless it ends in me being wrong and becoming like them. 


      Inaccurate reporting;  There is a real dishonesty to Slice.  Several times they have been caught in false reporting only to remove the post without retraction.  They allow weird and wacky people who agree to post but even respectful people who disagree are silenced.  This is not balanced nor is it deserving of tolerance. 


      Fostering venom; There are many people in this world who wait for me to tell them what I think so they can think it too.  This is true as a leader anywhere.  It is also a sacred trust and should not be used to foster venom.  I spent several years as a missionary working directly with Gangs.  One of the gangs I worked with was a white power skin head gang.  One primary tool of recruitment for this gang reminds me of that tactics of many watch dog ministries.  Send your message about everyone in a negative light, become the victim every time someone shoots back, tell people you are holding on to truth, as long as they agree with you let any crazy idea stand…  Randy, I saw this first hand for years.  The people we led to Christ, who subsequently got jumped out of their gang, waited for me to tell them what I think so they could think it too.   These were the most difficult people to disciple to maturity but the easiest to disciple to dependence on me. 


      As for her and Jesus both being obnoxious.  Jesus was God and we cannot rule that out.  He always knew what was in the hearts of men, he never needed to be instructed as to the hearts of men.  This is not true of me, you or Ingrid.   We cannot make God in our image here on this one.  Jesus was right all of the time. 


      I am not trying to trash Ingrid as a person or as a sister in Christ, but I honestly see her as dangerous.  Disagree with me if you will but I struggle to see the value she adds to the dialog in contrast to the damage she has caused with the venom, false labels, bad reporting and isolation from correction.  My prayer for her would be to actually discover God’s grace, to take time and heal, then to come back and use her obvious gifts with a spirit of gentle humility. 


      From yesterday at her Hope in Laodicea;  “The rebellious church is unlikely to change its ways. We can’t stop the blasphemers, the wicked men claiming to represent Christ, the false pastors and shepherds who are misleading souls. I believe the great delusion is here, and it is being sent by God.” 


      Randy, if Ingrid knew me personally I would be one of those false pastors.  I would be one who misleads souls in her eyes. In her eyes I am a part of the great delusion being sent by God.  Why, I don’t sing hymns, I don’t teach expository messages, I think God does care about our marriages, emotions and how we live today, I have played U2 and a few other secular artists in church, I have illustrated my sermons with video… You get the point.  Yet theologically I am probably much closer to John Mac.  Forgive the rambling please and thanks for the honest dialog.

    11. Peter Hamm on Fri, September 14, 2007

      I did find it disturbing that on her “A Quiet Place” she’s already adopted her “Slice” tone. I fear that before too long it will no longer be such a “quiet” place. (I’ve actually really enjoyed some of her postings there.)


      Perhaps she’ll even change the name of the site to… oh, well, you get the point…


      God bless you, Ingrid!

    12. Randy Ehle on Fri, September 14, 2007

      Leonard:  grace? tolerance?  I’m not sure what the best word is to communicate what I was trying to.  Maybe gentleness?  I honestly don’t know.  I agree with you - I’d probably be on Ingrid’s black list (even though I’m not a pastor). 

      Eric:  Great questions!  You expressed very well the dilemma I see with how Jesus handled the religious leaders of his day.  Of course he was right (being God, and all!), but how does that instruct me (very much not God!) for dealing with leaders whose teachings or actions I believe are out of line with Scripture?  We can’t simply look to Jesus and suggest that we could follow his example; I can’t simply call my church board a “brood of vipers” if I think they’re out of line.  We need to consider the while counsel of Scripture, which includes Matt 18 on dealing with offenses (are we safe in extrapolating that to include how to approach a leader who has possibly made a doctrinal error?), and other passages that talk about how to handling disputes.

       

      For the record, I don’t think Ingrid, VCY, and other self-proclaimed “watchdogs” tend to do follow these clear biblical principles very well.  My lingering question is, how (if at all) do we handle them?  Thanks for the conversations, everyone!  And thanks, Todd, for the venue to have these conversations - disagreements and all!

       

    13. layne on Fri, September 14, 2007

      Uglier than a publicized parking lot beat-down?

    14. Eric Joppa on Fri, September 14, 2007

      Randy,


      No, maybe you can’t call your board a brood of vipers…but wouldn’t it be funny if you did? JK


      I think there are cues we can take from Jesus and how he handled the pharisees. I see them as the believers of the day. Basically we are in the same position. When someone is out of line with what Jesus taught and is a believer (i.e. like Ingrid and those at slice) than we must say something.


      I don’t think it can be tolerated, nor do I believe we should always be gentle when dealing with people who just want people to see things their way.


      Remember, these are people who push an agenda behind the facade of standing for what is right. Remember Titus 3:9-11…


      But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.


      When this is so clearly the case, I do not believe they need be defended by anyone as much as admonished by brothers and sisters. and when they refuse to be rebuked, we should do just what this passage says and have nothing to do with them.


      I must say that I agree with Leonard. These people are dangerous and harmful to the body, and to the aroma of Christ the church is to have. They chase far more people away from God than they usher toward him.


      Romans 2:24


      As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

    15. DanielR (a different Daniel) on Fri, September 14, 2007

      Randy, I am glad you didn’t use one of my previous comments as example, although I’m sure I have posted comments that would have served well.  I understand what you’re saying about lack of grace in tone, and I suspect that is related to the amount of aggravation they cause those who disagree with their interpretations and tactics.  For me personally it’s their tactics that are aggravating, I think their interpretations are wrong, but I can live with that and I pray that they will be guided by the Holy Spirit to a better understanding.  (I think they’re wrong, just as I’m sure they would think I’m wrong.)


      I’ve never had to defend Christianity to someone who had read something from Slice, because I don’t think they have that wide a following, but I remember when Pat Robertson said;


      “You say you’re supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense. I don’t have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist.”—Pat Robertson, The 700 Club, January 14, 1991


       


      And


      “The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians.”—Pat Robertson, fundraising letter, 1992


      I can’t remember how many times I had to try to convince someone that Robertson does not speak for all Christians and definitely does not speak for me.  They (PR, Ingrid, VCY, etc.) make it more of an uphill battle, they give satan that much more ammunition to use to keep people away from church and away from salvation.


      We may respond to unbelievers with more grace because we understand their lack of understanding.  I think we often don’t respond to VCY, Slice, et al. but rather we react to them and the lack of grace in our reaction may be in proportion to our perception of their lack of grace in what they write and the degree to which we let them aggravate us.

    16. Page 1 of 2 pages  1 2 >

      Post a Comment

    17. (will not be published)

      Remember my personal information

      Notify me of follow-up comments?

    Sponsors

    • Generosity
    • The Show
    • ChurchPlanters
    • churchunique