Two Discernment Websites Cease Publication on the Web
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Sun, July 27, 2008
- Viewed 513
- (100) comments so far
My read on this one?
Well… I think that Abanes should have probably tried to work with Ken to get the post taken down. I have no doubt that Ken would NOT have taken it down, but it would have been the right first step, rather than going directly to Ken’s web host. And once Ken got the notice from his web host, I think he should have tried to make the compromise happen.
But instead, it’s a big mess… one that’s causing more than a bit of insanity. Ken is crying ‘martyr’ and some of the watchdoggie sites are saying that this ‘first amendment issue’ will cause us all to eventually lose our right to criticize anyone online.
Bottom line: Ken’s article had been on his site since 2005. I really doubt that it was going to do Richard any harm. Plus, Ken’s readers aren’t going to buy Richard’s books, regardless (sorry, Richard!)
You can catch more on this at Richard Abane’s website; or an update over at Lighthouse Trails or Slice of Laodicea. I won’t link to them here, but you can find them easy enough if you’re that interested.
This SO MUCH takes away from everyone who is involved’s effectiveness. I hate that.
Your thoughts?
As many of you know, I've picked a few fights every now and then when I feel that some of the 'discerning ministry' have crossed the line. Well, it seems that two of my favorite watchdoggie websites are down, at least for now.
The first one is rather sad... and I would ask you to pray for Jim Bulbitz. Jim publishes OldTruth.com, and is having some serious health issues. In fact, he needs to have a liver transplant. He shares the news at OldTruth. His health issues will cause him to stop new posts, at least for then next few months. You know, I have disagreed with many of the things (probably most) that Jim has written over the years; and we've gone head to head on more than one occasion. But I can always say this: Jim was always open to dialouge, and always has treated me as a brother rather than a heretic. I appreciate that; and pray for you, Jim, that God will heal you completely.
The second website to go down happened this weekend. This was Ken Silva's "Apprising Ministries" website. Ken, on the other hand, is one of the more hard-nosed, confrontive bloggers I've run across on the net. Here's the short version of this one: Ken wrote a scathing piece on author Richard Abane in 2005 that Abane thought was slanderous. So, Richard contacted Ken's ISP and asked them to remove it from their servers. Ken's ISP looked at the article, and told Ken he'd have to remove that one post, or else they would take his site down complete. Ken, ever the martyr, decided to leave it up; and thus, lost his whole site (although I'm sure they're working frantically to get it back up on another host)...
Comments
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CS on Tue, July 29, 2008
Richard:
Thank you for the response.
For the record, I like Ken Silva, Ingrid Schuleter, and many other ODMs that are online. I stand vehemently opposed to the purpose-driven programs and ideology that you support. I know that you and I are perhaps diametrically opposed on many things in evangelicalism.
But you know what? You were right for what you did.
I took your challenge of finding anything resembling an argument of your doctrinal and theological positions in that article, and could not find anything substantive. And, the more time I took in reading it and looking for evidence, the more I found myself agreeing with you that the article bordered on being slanderous.
The points that you listed for why you chose to contact the ISP and requested the article be removed made sense to me. The hiatus from doing things online, the fact that you are getting more widespread publicity and things like this could defame you, and the fact that he did not tackle any theology or doctrine head-on are all reasonable, rational explanations for your actions (I heard you on the Gino Gerasi show in Denver the other day, BTW.)
With this good explanation of things and my examination of the article, I agree that you were in the right. Even though I believe you are wrong on things like supporting Rick Warren, and perhaps a large number of other areas, I have to say that you did a good job, sir.
God Bless.
—
CS
Richard Abanes on Tue, July 29, 2008
Peter,
Greetings. BTW, this is a whole new community for me and I am eager to get to know all of you.
I agree with you. It was a can of worms, to be sure. But I felt like it was a can of worms that needed to be opened because it has grown and infected the whole Body of Christ.
Apologetics and discernment is about testing for truth (1 Thess. 5:19-22), defending the true faith delivered unto us (2 Corinthians 11:4; Jude 3), being patient and careful when making accusations (2 Timothy 4:2), showing love/respect/gentleness when making corrections (1 Cor. 13; 1 Peter 3:15; 2 Tim. 2:24-26).
Such concepts have been wildly perverted by the so-called Online Discernment Ministries (ODMs). And I think that because the ministry area of apologetics and discernment is so near to my heart, it is grievous to see how these individuals have tarnished the whole concept of apologetics, and in so doing, have:
1) caused division in the church; and
2) misled others into thinking that what they are doing is actually the ministry of discernment/apologetics—when in reality, what they are doing is nothing more than witch hunting.
My work over the last several months has included a personal effort to help others see and understand what is really going on with these so-called “watchmen on the wall” as they like to be called. And I think that they are showing their true colors more and more as the days go by. This Ken Silva controversy has shown plenty, IMHO.
R. Abanes
Richard Abanes on Tue, July 29, 2008
CS,
THANK YOU!!!!
You said: “I took your challenge of finding anything resembling an argument of your doctrinal and theological positions in that article, and could not find anything substantive.”
That’s all I wanted. I want truth to be told. I want us ALL to be committed to standing for truth, the gospel, defending the faith, honesty, integrity, sound reasoning, biblical discernment.
You can even disagree with me on all kinds of Rick Warren things. KEWL!!! Guess what, I don’t even agree with everything Rick Warren says or does. And if I were a pastor, I’m sure lots of people would disagree with me, too. Fine!!!
As Christians, our unity is wrapped around a shared love for Jesus Christ, God the Son, who came and died for our sins on the cross, so that by grace through faith him, which includes his work on our behalf, we could receive eternal life with our Creator as a free gift!
“In Essentials, Unity; in Non-essentials, Liberty; in All Things, Charity.”
And for the record, brother, I am SURE that i am wrong on all kinds of things. ROFL. Ask my wife.
Richard Abanes
P.S. GINO = AWESOME
Peter Hamm on Tue, July 29, 2008
Richard,
Thanks for taking the time to fight this battle. I did try and engage with some of these folks online some while back and found it fruitless (shortly after Ingrid removed comments from her site as she is, as she indicated to me personally in an email, not really about creating dialogue, but more about reporting what she sees as the news affecting the church - along with commentary). Also, as a working pastor I cannot afford to take too much time on such endeavors, but I appreciate you taking the time. Hopefully we will all benefit.
It seems to me that Ken (and others like him) enjoy reporting news in such a fashion as to make something appear true that isn’t. Case in point, on his brand new (today) site, at http://apprising.org/ he reports under this headline. “RICHARD ABANES TO SUE APPRISING MINISTRIES OVER DEFAMATION-LIBEL?” Adding the question mark is no doubt a device to take the “edge off” of this statement, as you have at this point threatened no legal action whatsoever, as far as I know (although he reports that you wrote “Before turning this situation over to my attorneys, I respectfully request that IPOWERWEB.NET / IPOWERWEB.COM remove this particular article from it’s servers, and notify Ken Silva to cease and desist the posting similar articles. I have no wish to name IPOWERWEB.NET / IPOWERWEB.COM in a legal suit, and hope to resolve this issue as quickly and easily as possible.” which certainly implies that you will consider such action).
in any case, it seems like a bit of sensationalist headline-making that is more at home on the cover of the National Enquirer than on the home page of a Christian Discernment Ministry (whatever the heck that really is) web site.
Peter Hamm on Tue, July 29, 2008
Yeah, Richard, if CS had his own discernment site, it wouldn’t get much traffic. It would be relatively balanced, polite and boring because he doesn’t call names and even sees both sides of issues (shocking!).
(that was a compliment, CS!)
CS on Tue, July 29, 2008
Peter:
“Yeah, Richard, if CS had his own discernment site, it wouldn’t get much traffic. It would be relatively balanced, polite and boring because he doesn’t call names and even sees both sides of issues (shocking!).
(that was a compliment, CS!) “
Say what?!
Maybe today is just a very weird day. I’m supporting a PD supporter, Peter is complementing me, Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together… mass hysteria!
(Bonus points if you get the movie reference.)
Seriously, I do have a couple of blogs where I post some of my own observations about modern-day Christianity, but keep everything strictly above-the-belt.
—
CS
Richard Abanes on Tue, July 29, 2008
PETER: It seems to me that Ken (and others like him) enjoy reporting news in such a fashion as to make something appear true that isn’t.
ABANES: Today, I will be putting up a brand new RUMORS REPORT page at my website that includes a listing of many of the false statements that have flooded the internet from these people, who are using it as a perfect opportunity to spread more lies. We’re really seeing what they are all about.
My list won’t be in-depth, just a quick - that’s wrong, that’s untrue, here’s a lie, etc etc etc. It’ll be very easy to read. I’ll post a link when it is done. Again, what we are seeing again and again is a frighteningly DEFIANT stand these people are taking against: truth, accountability, responsibility, and biblical guidelines for…well…just about everything!
My opinion is the church needs to wake up and expose these people for who and what they are—i.e., very troubled individuals (spiritually, morally, and psychologically) who are damaging the Body of Christ. I’ll name no names. I’ll let you fill in the blanks as you read what is being disseminated now throughout cyberspace in response to this incident.
RAbanes
Sam on Tue, July 29, 2008
Richard,
Please stop being disingenious. There was an implied threat in your letter to I-Power. Though the form letter that you say you used say that you have no wish to name I-Power in a lawsuit, the implication is clear.
Now, Ken did make his own decision to bring down his site and now it appears to be operaing at a new website. I agree.
But please stop playing innocent and say that you never threatened a lawsuit to I-Power.
I have to laugh, however, as you are now the self-appointed watchdogs of the watchdogs. I feel safer already. Maybe you should have taken more time away from the internet.
I have no wish to call you a deluded idiot, but I would request that you stop being disingenous and playing innocent in your role in this conflict. You have continued to stoke the fires along with Ken when the two of you should be seeking reconciliation. But instead you seem to scour the internet looking for wesbites that report on this matter and then post your “side”. CRN info is just as bad as Ken in this matter.
Peter Hamm on Tue, July 29, 2008
“But please stop playing innocent and say that you never threatened a lawsuit to I-Power.” Even if you agree that he might have implied a lawsuit (I agree, he did imply such) to say he was threatening I-Power seems a stretch.
From Ken’s new web site, quoting Richard (I can’t assume this is accurate, as much from Ken has been, in my experience, very INaccurate, but nevertheless) “I have no wish to name IPOWERWEB.NET / IPOWERWEB.COM in a legal suit, and hope to resolve this issue as quickly and easily as possible.”
What a mess.
Richard Abanes on Tue, July 29, 2008
SAM: Though the form letter that you say you used say that you have no wish to name I-Power in a lawsuit, the implication is clear. . . . But please stop playing innocent and say that you never threatened a lawsuit to I-Power.
RA: I am not being disingenuous. What do the words say: “I - have - no - wish - to” ..... etc. etc. etc. And I didn’t. It was not even directed at Ken Silva, btw. WAS IT? IT was sent to IPOWER!!! Did you miss that? It was addressed to IPOWER.
Soooooo, if you want to say that I threatened IPOWER with a lawsuit, PUH-Leeeze tell me where 1 Corinthians 6 says we as Christians cannot sue heathen, godless, worldly institutions when a wrong has been committed. I eagerly await your exegesis.
Moreover, just fyi, the email I sent to IPOWER was a basic template that covers ALL manner of complaints that can be sent to an ISP (e.g., illegal pornography, unlicensed photograph use, libel, anything that is covered in a TOS agreement). I am not going to go around re-writing templates when I can simply throw it up to use.
The bottom line message to IPOWER was to kindly review a single article on Ken Silva’s website that I found to be not only objectionable, but also a violation of their TOS agreement—according to my understanding of it. Their response and their course of action was up to their guidelines for how to handle such a basic complaint.
There is not a HINT of anything wrong having been done on my part against a “brother in Christ” by a simple notification an ISP. I think it’s really stretching things to say otherwise—almost to the point of bearing false witness (hmm, not very surprising there).
What has happened as a result of that template lies at the feet of Ken Silva who has turned this into an evangelical/apologetic circus. The spin being put on this by Silva and the ODMs is INCREDIBLE!!! I have to give them credit for that.
______________
SAM: I have no wish to call you a deluded idiot
RA: Clever way of doing it without doing it. Kudos.
______________
SAM: But instead you seem to scour the internet looking for wesbites that report on this matter and then post your “side”.
RA: Ooooooh, I see. So you don’t want me to post my side of the story in opposition to what is being posted at literal HUNDREDS of websites??? Hmmm, talk about censorship. Your fair-mindedness and sense of balance is staggering, and I mean that. It really is staggering to me.
“The first to plead his case seems right, Until another comes and examines him” (Prov. 18:17).
R. Abanes
R. Abanes
Sam on Tue, July 29, 2008
That is funny. It WAS an implied threat. Why else was legal action mentioned in the letter to I-Power? Even if it was a form letter, that part could have been edited out. That kind of language is used to convey the message that if I-Power did not comply with Richard’s request then he would seek a legal remedy. Whether or not Richard would have done so is another matter. Richard is an author and he knows the power of words and knows as he stated elsewhere, how to cleverly word something.
Peter, be honest, if you owned a company and someone sent you a letter with the same verbage would you look at it as an implied threat to have the matter litigated? Sure you would.
This matter has snowballed out of control because BOTH of the sides keep escalating it and seem to be reveling in the attention they are getting from it. Which, makes people really question the both sides motives. Sad.
Again, Richard and Ken, for the sake of the Body of Christ, please attempt reconciliation instead of escalation.
Peter Hamm on Tue, July 29, 2008
Sam,
You’re reaching.
First of all, I would never have posted an article such as the one in question. I would probably be happy to remove something from my site that was offensive in a possibly slanderous manner, EVEN if I thought I was right. I am very careful with my words wherever they are posted for all to see, and it appears to me that Ken is not.
I think that the purpose of the paragraph in the template Richard used was indeed to let the company know that legal action was NOT yet being contemplated, and I don’t think it is such a “threat” at all. However, IPower needs to be reminded that there is a legal side to material that might be slanderous hosted on their servers, and that was effectively done.
I’ve read the article that is in question now, too, and I concur with CS’s comments above.
Richard Abanes on Tue, July 29, 2008
First, so now you are a mind reader? You can tell me what I was thinking in my own ind and heart? Interesting, I thought only God could do that. So, you are saying you are a mind reader, or you are saying that I am now deliberately lying to you (which is actually something you can’t prove anyway, so why go that direction).
Second, did you miss my request in the last post? Let me post it again using slightly different language:
You say I threatened a lawsuit? Well, for the sake of discussion — Cool! Let’s say I did. Who was that email addressed to???? Answer: IPOWER.
So if anyone was threatened with a lawsuit, it was IPOWER!!! It was not Ken Silva because that email was not to him!
Pleeeze tell me, therefore, where 1 Corinthians 6 says that we, as Christians, cannot sue heathen, godless, worldly institutions when a wrong has been committed. I eagerly await your exegesis.
R. Abanes
Sam on Tue, July 29, 2008
Richard,
I am not going to argue with you because you refuse to take any accountability for your part in all this while claiming to be innocent party.
I will end my comment on this matter with this, Richard you should have attempted to resolve this with a call to Ken before the letter was sent to I-Power regardless of what you THOUGHT his response would have been. He is accountable for his response as you are for your actions and you should have sought peace with your Christian brother before the letter was sent.
Seek reconcilation with Ken, Richard. How can you even attempt to try to hold the ODMs accountable while you deny your own role in this? Very ironic.
Romans 12:18.
Richard Abanes on Tue, July 29, 2008
SAM,
BTW, you want to see how a Christian handles actually being threatened with a lawsuit directly, and publicly online???
Because that is what happened to me within the last 48 hours by a supporter of Ken Silva and a Rick Warren critic—i.e., Chris Rosebrough.
I suggest that you read my blog post ABANES OFFICIAL RESPONSE TO CHRIS ROSEBROUGH LAWSUIT THREAT
R. Abanes
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