Monday Morning Insights

Photo of Todd

    Wanted:  An Old Fashioned Church

    I don’t want to have my eardrums bashed in by the three kids in the “worship band” who can’t be bothered to bathe, shave, dress or comb their hair on Sunday morning. If it’s really all about the God that Scripture describes as ineffably holy, shouldn’t that be reflected in attitude and dress for those who serve in church music?

    I don’t want a vampy “praise and worship” leader who is flaunting her wares at every male within view as she does her worship moves on “stage”. If we are to worship God in spirit and in truth, as Scripture tell us, than what’s all the flesh about? Can we no longer discern the difference?

    I don’t want to see people in beach attire with their backsides peeping out of their shorts because they think that God isn’t worth their best efforts at dressing. “God doesn’t care about clothes, only man”, they say. But the real reason is that it’s just plain easier to cruise into church in jeans or whatever is still lying on the floor from the night before. Dressing up for worship of the Lord would cost them something, however little, and they don’t want to pay it.

    I also don’t want to see all the variations on lovers’ back rubs where Chuck and Sue take turns massaging each other’s neck and shoulders during the sermon so everyone behind them is completely distracted. Behavior affects other people. Are Christians so self-absorbed that they never think about the people behind them trying to hear the message?

    You can

    I’m looking for a good Christian church. I don’t want to sing songs off a wall, the same five notes, over and over and over and over again while I am lightheaded from standing so long. There’s a record of the hymns of God’s people that spans 2000 years. Why are we so arrogant as to think we don’t need those wonderful songs any longer? Have we gone through more suffering, more affliction, more pain for Jesus than those who wrote these enduring hymns? Does a semi-secular song writer in Nashville with a multi-million dollar music contract have more to say to us about God and the Christian life than the 17th-century hymn writer who lost four children and his wife during the 30 years War?


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    1. Lee on Sun, March 16, 2008

      The church is so full of heathen these days there is no room for a saint to sit down, so the saints just left the visible church and turned it over to the heathen, who have already overrun the pulpits and the pews.

      But to the saints I say, look up,  that is the way the Bible said it would be, just before Christ returns.

    2. Adam on Sun, March 16, 2008

      I sure am sorry for the early church before the KJV and hymnals…they must all have been heathen not singing from hymnals or reading from the KJV in their black suits and short-sleeved white button-ups.

      I’m getting so tired of anything different being tagged “sinful” or “heathen”.  You know, Jesus didn’t have a pianist leading “Just As I Am” when He preached.  Why aren’t those things considered just as much change as projectors and drums…neither were in the Bible so what makes a piano and hymnal more godly than projectors and drums?

    3. Lee on Sun, March 16, 2008


      You might as well go ahead and play your drums, have your Superbowl party or whatever else the imagination of your heart can come up with, the saints are leaving anyway.

    4. Adam on Mon, March 17, 2008

      Actually, you’re wrong.  Our church has baptized more people in the last three years than in the previous decade…and guess what, the majority of our church family is 50+ and been “the saints” most of their lives.  Furthermore, we are also experiencing growth from those 50+ coming from other churches.  They are not our “target”, we are not interested in “swapping sheep”, but they are coming to our church because they are tired of worshipping traditions and are more interested in actually seeing people saved and a church that believes in evangelism.

      Lee, I don’t know you personally, but I can tell you that if the “traditional” pastors in my hometown were as interested in sharing the Gospel as they are in preaching against drums and projectors they might actually see someone get saved.  Salvation and discipleship have nothing to do with drums and everything to do with the Blood of Jesus.

      People aren’t “the saints” because they read the KJV and sing from a hymnal, they’re “the saints” because they’ve been saved from the debt of sin by the Blood of Jesus, or maybe your post reflects a difference of theology more than a difference of worship?

    5. Lee on Mon, March 17, 2008


      You didn’t hear me arguing that your church wouldn’t be full, the argument is what is the gospel you are preaching?

      Does it resemble this?

      Or how much of this do you hear there?

      Or this?

      Or maybe this?

      There is a reason Christ had nothing good to say about the church of this time.

    6. Adam on Mon, March 17, 2008


      I believe you are skirting the issue.  The issue isn’t growth, but the Gospel.  You can accuse others who have differing views of methodology of “making a show of godliness” but you’re entire point is made on the tradition of men.  You have yet, in any reply on this matter, to even once present one biblical point.

      I believe there will many who stand before Jesus saying, “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name” who have held high the banner of tradition and will hear from Jesus, Himself, “depart from me, ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you”.  My salvation and the salvation I preach is by grace through faith in the crucified and risen savior…all I see you writing about is the tradition of men. 

      I am still waiting for you to prove that the KJV and hymns and “traditions” of the church are any less at risk of being a “show of godliness” than “contemporary” worship.  I grew up in the traditional church, and believe it or not, I currently pastor a traditional church.  On Sunday morning we will have a choir singing mostly hymns out of the hymnal accompanied by a single piano.  But we also utilize a projector and occasionaly have praise teams come in.  While we may be a “traditional” church most of the time,  I (unlike others) cannot in truth and honesty say that anyone not singing from the hymnal is faking their salvation because I have seen too many “traditional” Christians and churches not bearing fruits demonstrating the command in Eph 5:18 to filled with the Holy Spirit, not living godly lives, and are too busy building larger are fancier facilities to be bothered with evangelism.

      Perhaps you should read your own links and see if they couldn’t apply to any church, regardless of style and including tradional, that is not pointing others to the Gospel for salvation?

    7. Lee on Mon, March 17, 2008


      Now that you have admitted to your pastor status. Here is what Christ has to say about the church of this time. I am sure you know it well, but will not admit that it applies to you and your church.

      Rev 3:14-17

      And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;  I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

      And a few others.

      Jer 6:13-14 For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.  They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace , peace ; when there is no peace .

      Jer 10:21 For the pastors are become brutish, and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper, and all their flocks shall be scattered.

      Ezek 22:26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane , neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.

      2 Peter 2:1-3 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

      The travesty is that you may have started off wanting to rescue men, but having been educated in seminaries by unbelievers, your only thought is to make them comfortable and give them what they want, instead of what they need.

      You must learn the difference between the holy and the profane.

    8. Brian L. on Mon, March 17, 2008


      Now that you have admitted your prophet status…

      You go a long way to state you know the heart of Adam and the rest of us.

      You show absolutely no evidence that any of us are lukewarm - except to say you disagree with us.

      You have shown no BIBLICAL evidence that anything we’ve discussed is sinful or anti-Scriptural in any way.  You quote Scripture but fail to show how it applies - other than that you disagree with us.

      I am a pastor - but was not seminary trained.  Am I to be lumped into the “making my professors comfortable” crowd?  If so, knowing that your accusations have no basis in actually knowing our hearts, I will gladly be counted among these brothers and sisters on this forum.

      And are you really a perceiver of hearts to be able to make such accusations against those you’ve never met?

      You are quick to call us out as sinners.  Are you willing to admit the possibility that it is YOU who may be wrong?

      Are you willing to recognize the fact that you are also a man - capable of misunderstanding Scripture just as you claim we are?

      Are you willing to recognize the possibility that people can love God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength and still disagree with you about this and not be in sin because we disagree with you?

      Or are you simply willing to condemn us out of hand - because we disagree with you, although as I’ve mentioned in this post, you have shown no BIBLICAL evidence that we are wrong?

      I hope that you can recognize how dishonest this is!

      Brian L.

    9. Lee on Mon, March 17, 2008


      If you don’t believe Christ, who was speaking to the visible church of this particular time, you won’t believe me, but as you pointed out my words don’t really matter anyway. I tend not to waste much time with ‘pastors’, all the evidence you need will be presented to you after you die.

      Matt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

    10. Peter on Mon, March 17, 2008

      Please don’t feed the troll(s).  I think Slice may have sent some of their faithful following this way.

    11. Lee on Mon, March 17, 2008


      Actually I didn’t know ‘MMI’ or ‘Slice’ until now, but after stumbling across that good article on the Old-Fashioned church, I wasn’t about to stand by and watch the enemies of Christ mock the things of God. After reading a bit more about this site I realized that it was meant for pulpiteers, so I will happily flee from your turf, leaving you to be wise amongst yourselves.

      At least we can probably agree that we are both glad there are two destinations for eternity, that way we can go our separate ways.

    12. Jeff M. Miller on Mon, March 17, 2008

      Did he just tell everyone here to “go to Hell?”

      That’s why I left anything that smacks of “fundamental,” or “old-fashioned,” or “traditional.” I got tired of not seeing the love of Christ and the Fruit of the Spirit exhibited. If that’s how the “saints” act, I want no part of them.

      I’m sorry we don’t measure up to your standards, sir. Thankfully, I only have to measure up to the Scripture’s and the Lord’s standards, which we all fall short of.

      Even more thankfully, Christ will actually forgive, whereas it seems you will not.

    13. Peter Hamm on Tue, March 18, 2008


      I’m trying to figure this out. Do you think if I use music in my church that is contemporary that I am departing from sound doctrine?

      You write “ I tend not to waste much time with ‘pastors’, all the evidence you need will be presented to you after you die.” Wow. Pastors are among God’s gifts to the church to equip us and you don’t want to waste time with them?

      Lee, your horse is very high indeed.

    14. betnich on Thu, March 27, 2008

      Quote:“I don’t want to sing songs off a wall, the same five notes, over and over and over and over again while I am lightheaded from standing so long.”

      Well, then - there goes the pentatonic scale (5notes).

      Guess we’ll have to rid ourselves of that silly “Amazing Grace” NEW BRITAIN tune as well…

    15. AFJ on Tue, May 12, 2009

      I read this post and I was shocked at some of the comments.  First of all I want to say that, I grew up in the generation where Contemporary Christian Music was being brought into the church.  I was a teenager.  I didn’t like it.  It didn’t make me want to stay in the church.  The love I had for Jesus is what kept me in it and the teaching that I received about the Bible that taught me I needed to be in it.  When I look around, my generation is the one that you don’t see in the church anymore.  If this is what kept all the ones that just adored the music in the church then where are they??!!

      I am still here.  I love the hymns!  I even love a few choruses, but not the ones that stray from the sound of a good gospel song.  I am so sick of hearing that this is what it took to keep anyone in the church.  Jesus is the only thing that keeps us in the church.  The bible says “the Zeal of the Lord of Hosts will perform this”.  Who are we to think that a style of music is going to be what does it???

      We need to seek God and stop trying to make the gap bigger between generations and learn to close it.  I too was a youth director for quite a number of years.  I never encouraged that music and the young people never even requested that we do it.  I tried to close this gap instead of making it bigger with musical differences.  It just sickens me.  I am sure it makes the Lord sicker than it does me.  I know Him well enough to know He doesn’t want division.  Sometimes I wonder if people are telling the young people what they want instead of asking them.  Maybe we are just fine using what has been used for generations.

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