Willow Shift: Our New Strategy to Reach Seekers if to Focus on Mature Believers
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Thu, April 17, 2008
- Viewed 142
- (37) comments so far
Also changing… beginning in June, Willow will end their mid-week worship service that had been geared toward believers. Midweek will now offer discipleship classes aimed at different levels of growth for believers. And on weekends, the ‘anonymity factor” will be gone. According to Hawkins, “Anonymity is not the driving value for seeker services anymore. We’ve taken anonymity and shot it in the head. It’s dead. Gone.” Willow’s weekend ‘seeker’ services will now be packed with worship music, scripture, and more challenging Bible teaching, led by Bill Hybels the majority of the weeks.
In summary, Hawkins said, “They want the Bible, they want to be close to Christ, they want to be challenged. Yes, I will give them what they want!”
More here at Christianity Today...
Any thoughts?
Willow announced some major changes in the way they are going to be doing church at the recent Shift Conference held on their campus last week. Chief among the many changes they are implementing (as a result of their recent REVEAL study) is pretty much the death of the seeker sensitive service format they pioneered years ago. According to Greg Hawkins, Willow's Executive Pastor, "Our strategy to reach seekers is now about focusing on the mature believers. This is a huge shift for Willow.”
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CS on Thu, April 17, 2008
Leonard:
“CS, if you are going to use Romans 3 like you do then you also have to say we all shed blood, we all are poisonous and so on and so on. I simply think you miss the point of romans 3.”
How would you exegete the latter half of Romans 3 where it says, specifically, “There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God?”
“As for the primary ideology being wrong, people do seek to fill the void create by the absence of God.”
What verse says that?
—
CS
Peter Hamm on Thu, April 17, 2008
CS writes
[Okay, it produced _some_ mature Christians.] What? How much exposure have you had to leaders and people at WC? I’ve had quite a bit. They are pretty awesome mature Christians. (I guess we have to define “mature Christian”, too. For me, theological knowledge is further down on the list and loving Christ-like behavior is high up, but that is not the way it seems to everyone.)
Derek on Thu, April 17, 2008
On the issue of unbelievers in public worship, I think we can see both biblical and historical records where the church was aware of unbelievers in connection to the worship service.
N.R. Needham in 2000 Years of Christ’s Power describes a time when unbelievers were welcomed to attend worship gatherings, but then asked to leave during the time of communion.
Only the baptized where allowed to receive communion and Needham indicates that there was a time when they were allowed to attend the prayers and reading of the Scriptures.
(http://www.amazon.com/000-Years-Christs-Power-Fathers/dp/0946462496)
Also Paul deals with unbelievers in public worship in 1 Corinthians 14. He tells them that if everyone is speaking in tongues and an unbeliever comes in “will they not say that you are out of your mind?”
This does not necessarily give us biblical or historical precedence for creating a worship service for unbelievers, but it at least tells us that Christians have been aware (sensitive?) of unbelievers in Christian worship.
Finally, conducting surveys has been practiced by missionaries for decades in the third world. Missionaries call it “soil testing.” Why not do it in US churches? His Holiness Rick Warren did it when he started Saddleback.
Derek
Leonard on Thu, April 17, 2008
You are kidding right? Where is the verse for that? You mean to tell me that you have never met anyone who seeks to fill a void in their life because the possess no relationship with Christ? Do you live in a bubble? You mean I need a verse that says people without God are missing something? You mean I need a verse that says when someone is outside of a relationship with Christ that they year for significance. That they long to matter and have meaning in their life. I need a verse that says when someone is outside of Christ there is a longing for forgiveness and healthy relationships? CS you have to be kidding, you can’t be that naive in how you relate to people.
Have you never met someone who spent their whole life searching for something and when they gave their heart to Christ said… I finally found what I was looking for. You have never met anyone who was looking for love and after a string of relational shipwrecks finally gave their heart to Christ an in doing so commented they have finally found what the love they were looking for? I talk to people literally everyday who describe their life like this. I have led thousands of people to Christ who describe their lives like this.
Romans 3 should be studied and understood in context with Romans 1-3, not parsed out into sound bites. Do you honestly believe that people cannot hunger for something in their life? See the reality is CS that I came to Christ because in my life something was missing. When I heard the Gospel I discovered what it was or better yet who it was.
Here is a question: Do you honestly believe Hybles and his team to be so outside of a relationship with Christ that they could not possibly have been prompted and led by the Holy Spirit to ask questions of people? Is your ministry so vast and deep that you can make that call?
What frustrates me CS is how quickly you toss guys like Hybles under a bus. How easily you make statements about “how” the church should be from your understanding of the scriptures but cannot support it from the scriptures in any way other than generalities.
Wendi on Thu, April 17, 2008
CS –
Why do you participate in this blog? You have made it clear that you find only fault with the type of churches Todd shares about here. You are continually in an argument with us because the people many of us admire you have problems with. We don’t always agree with one another or the people in the story, but you can’t just disagree, you have to question whether they are even Christian, call them unbiblical or heretical.
Can you point us to even one MMI thread in the past few months that helped you, that you found informative and valuable? Can you list some people whose ministry Todd has commented on that you admire?
Your arguments about what is “unbiblical” about Willow are ridiculous, as are your efforts to make some kind of biblical case that human beings cannot seek after God as the answer to their unanswered questions.
And they will seek my face;
in their misery they will earnestly seek me.” Hos 5:15
6 Seek the LORD while he may be found;
call on him while he is near. Is 55:6
17 I love those who love me,
and those who seek me find me. Pro 8:17
At the end of the day, why on earth does it matter to our work whether God has drawn someone or they sought Him? Our job is to go after the lost. When the Lord sees fit to intersect my life with the life of someone with a tender heart, I don’t give one thought to whether the person was drawn or was seeking. It doesn’t matter. Willow has been relentless about finding ways to intersect the lives of people whose hearts are ready to consider faith in Jesus. Why does it matter to you if they call these people seekers? Why would you find fault with this passion? Would that more of our churches would find such a passion.
Wendi
CS on Fri, April 18, 2008
Leonard:
“You are kidding right? Where is the verse for that? You mean to tell me that you have never met anyone who seeks to fill a void in their life because the possess no relationship with Christ? ...”
You’ve sidestepped the question. Please provide a verse that demonstrates the, “God-shaped hole in the heart,” to which you allude. Otherwise, I have to go with what else the Bible says about the nature of man, which leads to…
“Romans 3 should be studied and understood in context with Romans 1-3, not parsed out into sound bites. Do you honestly believe that people cannot hunger for something in their life?”
Romans 1 shows that although people should know that there is a God through creation, people willingly sin. Romans 2 continues this idea, talking about the natural law that is in the conscience. Romans 3 then takes these two ideas, and merges them by describing everyone who is under sin, Jew and Gentile alike, and then bringing Jesus as a propitiation into the fold.
And that description of the sinner is quite damning overall. It shows that no one does good, that they do not fear God, and yes, that they do not seek after God. In exegeting this verse, within its context, we find that sinners do not hunger for being close with God at all, and instead lead lives of rebellion towards Him.
“Here is a question: Do you honestly believe Hybles and his team to be so outside of a relationship with Christ that they could not possibly have been prompted and led by the Holy Spirit to ask questions of people? Is your ministry so vast and deep that you can make that call?”
There seems to be this defense in using the name of the Holy Spirit for any action taken. As long as something is done in His name, it seems to be approved. Now, I cannot judge how the Holy Spirit works (John 3), or what He may or may not be doing (again, we both have to avoid an argument from silence), but I would say that if the Holy Spirit was leading them to do something, wouldn’t it match with what the Bible has said? And wouldn’t that include the assumption that sinners do not naturally seek after God?
—
Wendi:
“Why do you participate in this blog?”
I participate so that I can grow in knowledge, wisdom, and matters pertaining to the Christian church.
“Can you point us to even one MMI thread in the past few months that helped you, that you found informative and valuable?”
Most of the threads have been informative and valuable, and I typically comment on those that I find of particular importance. Some are valuable because they show the state of the church, such as the one recently on tithing. Some are valuable, in showing a what-not-to-do picture.
“Can you list some people whose ministry Todd has commented on that you admire?”
Sure. John MacArthur, Kirk Cameron (Way of The Master/Living Waters), and John Piper come to mind offhand. If I wanted to really get the ire of some people on the forum, I could also mention Ingrid Schuleter, too. =)
Going to your verses, those all show a connection that God had with people, which caused them to seek. They are echoed in John 6:44, which shows that the _only_ people who seek after God are the ones whom He draws to them. And how do we know if God is drawing them to Him, as opposed to general “seekers”? They react to the preaching of the Gospel with repentance and conviction.
Remember, we are told in 1 Corinthians 1 that people look for things like signs and wisdom (and in the case of modern America, amusement and distraction), but the preaching of Christ is either something on which to stumble or plain foolishness to them.
“At the end of the day, why on earth does it matter to our work whether God has drawn someone or they sought Him?”
Because one of those concepts is in alignment with Scripture, and the other one is wrong.
“Why does it matter to you if they call these people seekers? Why would you find fault with this passion?”
They can call them whatever they want, but Romans 3 still stands firm. It also doesn’t matter how much passion one has if it doesn’t go in harmony with the truth in God’s Word.
—
CS
Leonard on Fri, April 18, 2008
CS, I did not mention the phrase “God Shaped Hole” I actually said people are drawn by the Holy Spirit. Don’t pick an argument I am not making and fight it as though I were. I did say that the void in my life and in the lives of others cause by the absence of Christ. The bible tells me that I was made by god for God. The purpose of creation, is to glorify God. It was made for that reason and “groans” under the weight of sin. Again you assume that Willow uses the term Seeker outside of the drawing of the Holy Spirit. Why do you assume this?
I am not arguing against the depravity of man here. Willow does not argue against the depravity of man either. Rather I am recognizing the depravity of man, recognizing the drawing of the Holy Spirit and recognizing that I must present the Good News with the hope of partnership with the Spirit of God. I have shared Christ with people who had no interest at all, they were not being drawn by the Holy Spirit. I have shared Christ with people who were very interested and received the Grace of God because the Holy Spirit had drawn them. I also know people who heard several times, each time taking a step closer to a faith relationship with Christ because they were drawn.
My problem again here CS is you are making an argument that assumes Willow does not believe in the depravity of men and does not work in partnership with the Holy Spirit.
My neighbor drinks himself comfortably drunk each night. He does so because he is a sinner and that sin has separated him from God. The alcohol numbs the pain of sin, the loss of family, the hurt of life and fills the missing pieces of his heart with a substitute for forgiveness and a relationship with the God he was made by and for. Is he at home seeking God? It does not seem so but as I show him kindness, as I take him food now and then, as I speak with him about the hope I have found, he catches a scent of God’s Grace. The Holy Spirit draws him and it is my hope that he will seek God because he is being drawn by God’s Sprit. When he does I plan to be there and tell him more and more.
CS, The very fact I was not made to be separated from God and am because of sin leaves a void within me. In my life this void did not cause me to seek God because my heart is corrupted. It did however still cause me to seek to fill the void. When the Holy Spirit began to draw me and I did begin to seek after God, that void was filled by Christ.
To be a seeker of God and to seek to fill the void caused by sin are not synonyms in Willow’s or my terminology. But you assume they are and argue from that argument you make accusations.
Romans 1-3 makes an amazing case for the reality of a void and for people seeking to fill that void. Paul is making a case for grace and making a case for everyone’s need for grace. He is getting ready to say at the end of Romans 3 that our condition required radical action by God and that faith is the only response God recognizes. Paul’s description of mankind here is to show the greatness of God and the far reaching power of His grace. But you seem to want to use it to pin humanities ears to the wall and announce they suck.
This passage was not intended for my self loathing but rather for my God honoring. It was written to show the gap or void that exists because of sin. It was written to show that I try to stuff knowledge into this gap, I try to stuff works into this gap, I try to stuff heritage into this gap, I try to stuff religion into this gap. Why? Because I do not seek God. It was written to show when I was powerless to do anything about my condition, God did something. It was written to show the size and power of God’s love and grace. Then when the Holy Spirit draws me, by faith I come to him and receive his Grace.
Leonard on Fri, April 18, 2008
BTW, I am not sidestepping the issue as you say, I am however not being drawn into an argument you assume that I am making.
CS on Fri, April 18, 2008
Leonard:
“Again you assume that Willow uses the term Seeker outside of the drawing of the Holy Spirit. Why do you assume this?”
Time Magazine and other sources reported that Willow Creek went door-to-door and asked people what they wanted by survey, and delivered that to them. From the evidence provided, they did not go door-to-door, preaching the Gospel, causing God to convict people of their sins, (which you agree is the way people get saved,) which then made them want to go to church in the end. Instead, they went out, got ideas, changed the church to what the unsaved wanted, in an effort to bring them in. That’s not Godly seeking. That’s also not the purpose of church.
“My problem again here CS is you are making an argument that assumes Willow does not believe in the depravity of men and does not work in partnership with the Holy Spirit.”
My argument is that people do not seek after God outside of the Holy Spirit. And if they were drawn of the Holy Spirit, we wouldn’t have to change any format to be “seeker-sensitive,” would we?
“Romans 1-3 makes an amazing case for the reality of a void and for people seeking to fill that void. “
This is an eisegetical interpretation. Here, the presumption is made that there is a void (“God-shaped-hole” in most modern preaching) about which Paul is writing, and how man is trying to satiate that feeling. In reading it without this preconceived view of this void, the text speaks of the depravity of man, standing against God.
I agree with you where you say, “He is getting ready to say at the end of Romans 3 that our condition required radical action by God and that faith is the only response God recognizes.” That is right on. But I see no other Scripture that says, explicitly, “You have a yearning for God, an absence in your soul for Him.” To the contrary, I see that we stand as enemies of God, willfully disobedient, who follow evil, and remain in darkness.
—
CS
Leonard on Fri, April 18, 2008
Never mind, you still are arguing something I am not. I wish you well but the it is a waste of my time to banter semantics with you since you seem to not really read what I said. Have a great day!
Peter Hamm on Fri, April 18, 2008
CS,
We all know the purpose of the church. We are supposed to Love God the most, Love our Neighbor as ourself, and make disciples as we go.
Willow found, by survey AND by prayer and study (just because Time didn’t mention that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen) the best way to do it in their community.
Period.
All of the things that you and others have said about Willow “doing church unbiblically” and being theologically incomplete is total hogwash. Sorry, but the only stronger words I can think of I really don’t want to type, let alone use.
I am more than weary of you ignoring certain answers to your arguments while you try to infer new and different arguments into the statements of those you disagree with. I mean, come on, quoting a secular publication to make your point about them merely conducting a survey to decide how to do church? That is beyond ridiculous!
Willow has done a GREAT job. God has blessed them and guided them. They have found that to continue they have to make great changes. Kinda like when the church decided, “Hey, these Gentiles are okay after all! Let’s take the gospel to them!”
More power to them! (Again, I am speaking from an informed perspective, as someone who has interacted with volunteers and staff at Willow and have found them to be among the most dedicated Christian workers I have ever encountered in my life.)
One final thought. Your discussions always come back to exegeting portions of scripture or expounding on correct theology. Please consider that for most people in the “pews”, these arguments don’t even make sense to them. They need to hear and understand the Gospel in a way THEY UNDERSTAND! Using words like propitiation ain’t gonna cut it, but more to the point… following Jesus is just that… following after Jesus. It is NOT an intellectual exercise in sound doctrine and correct theology, as much as you want to make it so. (I didn’t say doctrine and theology aren’t important, so please don’t take me there…)
Jesus said “follow me”
He didn’t said “study me”
I implore you… “Willow-bash” some other place…
Wendi on Fri, April 18, 2008
CS: [Time Magazine and other sources reported that Willow Creek went door-to-door and asked people what they wanted by survey, and delivered that to them. From the evidence provided, they did not go door-to-door, preaching the Gospel, causing God to convict people of their sins, (which you agree is the way people get saved,) which then made them want to go to church in the end. Instead, they went out, got ideas, changed the church to what the unsaved wanted, in an effort to bring them in. That’s not Godly seeking. That’s also not the purpose of church.]
So what? You have no way to make a case that this method is outside the biblical purpose of the church? There is no passage where we can find the definitive and normative method(s) for reaching people and making disciples. never outlined the “right” method. What this Willow method assumes is that in going door-to-door they will stumble upon people who are struggling with some wrong way of filling the void Leonard wrote about. Instead of pounding the stranger with a 4 point gospel presentation while standing in a stranger’s doorway, they invite them to church where they can begin a relationship AND communicate the message – that IS the purpose of any church I want to be a part of. Patrick evangelized thousands in the 3rd and 4th century in Ireland using this exact method, he invited seeking pagans into the community where they came to belong AND THEN came to believe.
You make my point by citing McArthur and Cameron and Ingrid as the people you learn from on MMI. You are here for the purpose of arguing against the innovative people Todd brings us, defending the people you cite above. Sometimes you are polite, often, like your mean-spirited comments about Willow here, your comments are disrespectful and uncalled for. Generally, you shut down lively and positive discussion with your hyper-Calvinistic attempts to make this theological a debate. Haven’t you noticed that whenever you jump in and begin crying heretic, pointing out how “unbiblical” is the person featured in Todd’s post, or even questioning whether the person is a Christian . . . most of the posters simply check out? Only a few of us are gluttons for punishment.
I implore you to be respectful CS. You don’t find MMI posters over at Slice or other watchdog cites relentlessly trying to change the minds of those who go there because they resonate with Ingrid’s views. Please show us the same respect.
Like Leonard, I’m checking out of this ridiculous and very unproductive argument.
Wendi
deaubry on Fri, April 18, 2008
cs i invited a couple to church, i told them we would treat them so many different ways they would have to like one of them, they thought that was funny, but they came and heard the word and got saved, that might no be the way peter and paul would have done it but it worked for me, god used my silliness to bring those people to church. hey i,m not sorry i did it , i might try it again sometimes, i think god can use us the way we are, i have ask people that has been to church and them quit going , why they quit, quote….i just did not like those stuff shirt pretenders that come to your house all sweet , and after i got saved if i made one mistake or sin they were down my throat like a roter rooter, i know it is the gospel preached with the conviction of the holy spirit that gets people saved, but i do not think that you can treat every one the same to get them in church, we have to be wise as serphants and harmless as doves, and the dove is the most beautiful loving cooing bird, and if we gonna be like a bird lets be doves instead of vultures, i,m not calling anyone a vulture so no one jump on that wagon. i believe in being faithful to the word, but i still think different people has to be approached in different ways, but the bottom line is the gospel and no one has denied that, so come on down where the rubber meets the road and find out what a person is all about , them you can tell them what jesus is all about, listen i would never be disrespectful to a minister, so if anyone thinks i have please forgive me.
Brian L. on Fri, April 18, 2008
CS - you continually bring up the idea that no one seeks God. In one post you actually broadened that a bit by including that no one seeks God outside of the Holy Spirit helping them.
I think I’ve pointed out on this forum before that it is true no one seeks God - on their own accord. But when the Holy Spirit begins to work, they become seekers.
I think one of the problems here is that you seem to think that once the Holy Spirit begins that work, that they automatically understand everything regarding salvation.
However, that is simply not the case. I grew up Catholic, and God started wooing me to Himself while I was in high school. It wasn’t until I was in college that I understood enough to respond to God’s message.
I was a seeker for those intervening years. And because others were able to communicate to me in a way I understood, the Holy Spirit brought me to Christ. I didn’t understand my need until the Holy Spirit used godly men who cared more for me than they did for correct terminology (I don’t think I even heard the terms “born-again,” “saved,” or “redeemed” during that period).
This may not fit your model. But I think it fits Scripture, particularly as the Holy Spirit works in the way Wendi (?) mentioned with the Scripture passages she mentioned.
One a related note, I have to join the chorus here in mentioning the overwhelming negativity of your posts. As soon as I saw this article posted yesterday, my first thought was literally, “I’ll bet CS will have something to say about this…”
Your presence on this forum is characterized by negativity. If a person were to describe you solely by the posts on this forum, few positives would come up. I will say that there is no question that you love Christ and are passionate about following Him. However, it seems that unless someone follows your prescription about everything, then they are wrong, and their salvation is suspect.
My heart breaks for you. I mean that sincerely.
Brian L.
Randy Ehle on Fri, April 18, 2008
This is a bit of a tangent, but perhaps worth the time to write and to read: I haven’t been as regular a contributor to MMI as a couple years ago, but I peruse the site regularly and I’ve noticed a number of shifts. Significant among them is the more one-sided comments; not that we all agree, and not that there have been no major arguments, but it seems that a couple years ago there was a larger number of “detractors” who made their presence known regularly.
If I’m right about that, perhaps the rest of us have gotten out of practice responding to - or ignoring - those comments. That seems to be the case with CS on this thread: he has drawn a number of people into an argument that (imo) is of little use to anyone. It is nothing more than “wrangling about words”, which Paul warned against in 2 Timothy 2:14. (And yes, CS, I am very familiar with v 15, too.)
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