Monday Morning Insights

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    “Women’s Tops Shall Not Reveal More Than Three Finger Widths from the Chin on Down&#8221

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    They share a faith and a calling, but some Battle Creek-area Baptist pastors have a hard time processing a Hillsdale County minister’s recent controversial actions at the pulpit.

    Jason Burrick, pastor of Allen Baptist Church, remains at the center of a storm, which has included the arrests of 71-year-old Karolyn Caskey for trespassing June 17 and July 15 and what critics see as his chauvinistic view of women.

    Hillsdale County Prosecutor Neal Brady twice dismissed the charges against Caskey, who chose to attend Sunday services after Burrick revoked her church membership. Brady said Caskey was not being disruptive.

    The ensuing stir has highlighted vast differences within the Baptist faith, which has at least 20 umbrella organizations, about what a woman’s role should be.

    Several area Baptist church bar women from leadership roles.

    “There are all kinds of shades of Baptists,” said Marvin Savola, pastor of one such church, North Athens Baptist Church, 2020 M Drive S. in Athens.

    Local Baptist ministers said they don’t know Burrick or Allen Baptist, which is an independent church, but they have read published reports.

    Since Burrick arrived almost two years ago, women in the tiny Allen Township church have been removed from office positions and forbidden to assist with communion, former members told the Enquirer.

    Additionally, women were no longer allowed to wear slacks or pant suits, and tops were not to reveal more than three-finger widths from the chin on down. Women have to remain quiet during services unless called upon, former members said.

    Burrick has declined to comment on Caskey’s arrests or his church’s policies toward women.

    The Rev. William Wyne, pastor of Second Missionary Baptist Church, 485 N. Washington Ave. in Battle Creek, called reports about the church “disturbing.”

    “When the person that God has placed in the church begins to act ungodly, that embarrasses God,” Wyne said.

    Such edicts deviate from the spirit of Jesus, who was a nonconformist and associated with prostitutes and lepers, another pastor said.

    “I think it’s a dangerous thing when you say, ‘You have to dress like this,’” said the Rev. Morris Anderson of 220-member Lakeview Baptist Church, 7 20th St. “People usually have good taste when they come to church. When you say women have to wear dresses and men can’t wear earrings, I think it’s missing what the gospel is about. I think it’s gone off the deep end down there.”

    More of the article from The Battle Creek Enquirer here.

    Just a show of hands… how many of you reading here at MMI have were brought up in a legalistic church?  My guess is a good percentage.  What caused you to break away?

    Legalism is still alive and well in the church today. Take this follow-up report from a story we told you earlier about. The church is only about 30 minutes from me just across the Michigan state line. But they are making major waves...

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    1. Leonard on Sun, July 29, 2007

      Go figure.  I heard he was going to write a best selling book called, “Rules Driven”  for those whose purposes need guidelines.  I just marvel at the never ending amount of rules we put on people.  No wonder the world thinks Jesus does not matter. 


      I experienced everything from hair not touching your collar, no jeans, collared shirts only, no music that was not found in a hymnal…  I can only think of a handful of people who still walk with Jesus after all these years.  It is sad that so many people rejected Jesus based upon this form of faith.

    2. Todd Rhoades on Sun, July 29, 2007

      Leonard,


      My experience exactly.  While we always saw people ‘come to Christ’ the drop off rate was about 90%.  I still have a couple of friends who are still scared 25 years later from the claws of legalism.


      We too had the ‘don’t dance, or chew, or run with girls who do’ thing going.  Hair over the ears.  Kids needed to go to the church’s Christian school.  Bob Jones and Hyles Anderson were the approved colleges.  No cards.  No movies.  Boys and girls sit on opposite sides of the bus, etc.


      Great people… but suckered into a list of rules that they eventually could not keep.


      Todd

    3. Lisa on Sun, July 29, 2007

      I grew up in non-denominational churches, but self-identify as Baptist. Both churches had what could be loosely labeled as dress codes; I used to get into minor fights with my mother because she wouldn’t let me wear pants to the Sunday evening services until high school. I’m still not sure whether the church relaxed a bit or whether Mom did.


      In high school, my family switched churches for a variety of reasons and wound up at a slightly more conservative church. This one specifically did have a dress code for performers—skirts had to be knee-length or lower—no pants—and blouses had to be modest. Oh, and interestingly, men up front had to wear ties.


      The irritating thing for me was that, by this point, I had developed a deep-seated hatred of skirts and a love of active participation—meaning I was a member of our church’s “orchestra,” and therefore was up front every week. My mother, meanwhile, had to have knee surgery, and rather than dealing with panty hose, wore pants to church for about two months (including up on the platform—she was in the choir). She actually got a couple of compliments in that time stating that she looked better in pants than many of the women in the church looked in skirts.


      My parents still attend that church, but I’ve since moved out and started attending a much more casual one. It’s amazing that t-shirts and jeans do not preclude sound theology.

    4. Peter Hamm on Mon, July 30, 2007

      Straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel seems to apply here.

    5. Brad Raby on Mon, July 30, 2007

      “I raise my hand, bow my…” sorry a little Brooks and Dunn. 


      I can probably top most of you in this catagory.  Lets just say my church added a tag line on the kids song: “The B-I-B-L-E”.  at the conclusion - all of the kids would hold out the refrain: “King James!!” just as many of the old hmns ended with the refrain: “Amen”.


      My brother-in-law went to a christian school in Michigan that required shirt and tie, but only dress shirts with one left pocket - two pockets violated dress code.  Also, pants were limited to single stitiching on the side seems - no double stitiched kakis.


      I could fill about 20 % of your Bandwith with stories from the past.


      My story of freedom is in an older post. Thank God I’m free!

    6. Bruce Rodgers on Mon, July 30, 2007

      Todd - Having been converted to Christ in a hootch in Vietnam in 1967, I came home and was involved with a local Baptist church affliated with the Rice/Hyles mentality (I admit that I grew significantly as a believer during this time and was given the opportunity to teach and preach often). The college I graduated from after that (and taught in the music department for over 5 years) hosted John W. Peterson as a guest composer and clinician in 1975. As was the style during that time, his hair was over his ears and he was “instructed” by the administration to either get it trimmed or at least off his ears. For such an honorable man of character, humility, and giftedness to be treated thusly was noted by many of the student body as insulting. Although the school gave numerous young people the opportunity to study as minimal cost with fine Bible teachers, the mindset that was ingrained into its graduates did much harm. Following the lives of some of my alma mater’s products, there were many “tragedies” that ensued, from “biblical dictatorship” to rejection of faith (so called). I feel blest to have struggled free from the bondage of “touch not, taste not, handle not.” The people under our present church leadership (a non-demoninational work) have shepherds and pastors who nuture and care for the flock of God, as Peter instructs us to do. No rulebook, just teaching the Scriptures and letting God’s Spirit “apply when and where necessary.” Thanks for allowing me to respond. I read your columns every week (even while on vacation!). Yours in Christ, Pastor Bruce

    7. Derek on Mon, July 30, 2007

      I came to Christ in a Baptist church that was fairly grace-oriented. This was in the late 80s early 90s when youth pastors railed against the dangers of secular music. (Maybe they still do?) So as teenagers coming to Christ we were encouraged to throw was deemed secular (meaning that it wasn’t produced by a Christian label). I had a dresser drawer full of cassette tape. I poured them out on the garage floor and smashed them with a four iron.


      It was a moderately legalistic move, but it certainly set my thinking in terms of rules and regulations. I did break free after reading through Galatians in my devotional time.


      As a pastor, I prefer to teach people to use Spirit-enabled discernment and filter out poor etertainment choices. I hate that I got rid of all of that music. Most of it was crap, but I had some good Billy Joel that I wish I never smashed!


      Derek

    8. steve on Mon, July 30, 2007

      This post is over the “top,” if you’ll pardon the pun.  Where IS the balance on this issue?  We’ve spoken to young ladies in our church youth group about dressing modestly, not in order to follow the “rules,” but as a way to honor God and others by not showing off their bodies with skin-tight or skimpy clothes…..but young Christian girls continue to show up at church in clothes that they would not be allowed to wear to public school because they violate the dress code….and good, Christian parents allow them to dress this way.  My daughter is 12 and I already realize the battle isn’t for her dress code, but for her heart….but how is a father, or a youth leader, or any leader in the church to teach in this area without taking a legalistic stand or ignoring the issue, and it IS an issue!

    9. Pastor Rusty on Mon, July 30, 2007

      Written without prejudice:


      If it is not too late to say so, i think perhaps the “rules” at the church under this man’s leadership are more a reflection of his own fears, pains or perhaps his own temptations. However, the truth remains that women should be beautifully modest and men should keep their eyes on Christ and their pants up! (Except in the cases where God has given us total freedom with the way he made us.)


      I pray every day that my wife will remain the most beautiful attractive woman in the world to me. He has answered yes! because that is the way He wants it too!!! But for those more afraid, less free…i pray that we will not sit in judgement on them, because surely there are people out there who need to be protected and sheltered from temptation within the body of Christ and in the outside world.


      So, while people wear what they want to the church i pastor, i keep a careful eye on the hugging to make sure we do it appropriately! None of us should be so free as to think we are beyond the possibility of failure. And we should remember that our freedom came at a tremendous price…paid by Jesus. There are some areas in all our lives where we need to be reminded that we are slaves to Christ and if we love him we obey His commands. Obedience built on the foundational fruit of the Holy Spirit has no rules that can stand against it.

    10. Bob Barnes on Mon, July 30, 2007

      My experience with the Lord began with freedom.   My wife was a member of a popular Pentecostal denomination (not UPC).


      The church of which she was a member was a bit less legalistic than others in that denomination (particularly in rural West Tennessee).   Eventually I felt called to the ministry and accepted a call to a rural church.


      Legalism reared its ugly head and I faced opposition that was hardly believeable.   Ultimately I left the area for five years.   When I moved back to the area, the changes were dramatic.   Many of my previous detractors had permitted the Lord to open their eyes about legalism.   Prior remarks of, “Well, Brother Barnes, if you don’t keep a tight rein on them, there is no telling what they will do”  changed.  My protests that if the Holy Spirit couldn’t keep them “straight”  neither could I, now had mellowed to the point that they realized that they couldn’t either.   I’ll close by saying that I AM NOT a libertine, just free.

    11. Brian on Mon, July 30, 2007

      Let me give some food for thought. Legalism is when we take a specific social preference and spiritualize it, going as far as trying to draw the social preference from a Biblical text.


      While that is wrong, why is that churches are not “allowed” by many modern church leaders to have social preferences? Why is that schools, workplaces, golf clubs, some restaurants, etc… can have dress codes, but we can’t at church…?


      I’m in my 30’s, not a legalist by any standard, I’ve ministered in shorts, jeans and a suit. I just wear whatever fits the culture… but I often wonder why it is not acceptable to “dress up” for church - whatever that looks like in any given culture… Is a “dress code” (whether formal or informal) really a barier for people?


      Curious…

    12. Leonard on Mon, July 30, 2007

      Only 88 more posts till we reach 100.  I sure hope there is a prize this time.  Maybe a MMI Neck tie.  Brian, the simple answer for me about the dress code is that I want a place that anyone can come.  I bought some clothes for a young girl in our church recently (had one of our ladies actually) because she literally had nothing else to wear.  A dress code would have kept this family out of our church. 


      As for daughters, we decided that modesty was taught at ages 1-4 not 10-12.  If you dress your baby in a bikini and tell here she is cute, then at 4 you buy her a bikini and tell her she is cute, why wouldn’t she think at 14 the same is true. 


      My 14 year old daughter dresses so impressively in this age she lives within that I never have to worry because she learned modisty

    13. Peter Hamm on Mon, July 30, 2007

      [Is a “dress code” (whether formal or informal) really a barier for people?]


      YES! here’s one way.


      The church I came from was a dressy casual atmosphere, the one I came to was a VERY casual atmosphere. I was dressing in dress shoes, nice dress slacks and a polo shirt or dressy casual shirt. I put people off. So… Now I wear jeans and t-shirts. I had to be the one to change this time…


      The prize for 100 should be free Simpson’s Movie Tickets!

    14. Steve on Mon, July 30, 2007

      So the question remains: how to teach and encourage modesty in children and youth without legalism?  I agree with teaching modesty from an early age, and be thankful when it “takes”  with your kids.   But what are some suggestions on the correct stance and a practical position to take when dress at church becomes less than modest?  BTW, not sure MMI neck-tie would fit my church’s “dress code.”  http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif

    15. Eric Joppa on Mon, July 30, 2007

      I find it interesting that there is a question at all about why a “dress code” is wrong for a church. I came to Christ as a 19 year old man and had no sense of what “church etiquette” was. I am lucky that I was in a church that loved anyone that walked through the doors instead of someone that dressed right.


      My question then is where did Jesus ever make a distinction about what someone wore? Didn’t He have a “a woman caught in the act of adultery” thrown in front of Him? She had to be wearing very little or nothing at all. His words were loving not judging.


      Isn’t that what the church should strive for? If you start making rules that will exclude someone from that kind of love, based on something as trivial as dress is, in my opinion, contrary to what Jesus taught us to do.

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