And I Wanted to Be There: “Ingrid, Rick… RIck, Ingrid”. Ain’t Ha
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Mon, May 12, 2008
- Viewed 139
- (100) comments so far
Here’s a link to the original post at Slice. The invitation letter, and Ingrid’s response. Be sure to go back and watch the Tim Keller piece as well. I’d love to hear your comments on this.
Hi Ingrid,
On behalf of Pastor Rick Warren, I would like to personally invite you to attend this years Purpose Driven Church Gathering (May 20-22) at our wonderful campus in Lake Forest, California. Pastor Rick would not only like to invite you, but pay for you to come out and spend three days with this group of national and global leaders. We are anticipating close to 2,000 leaders will gather to learn from our guest speakers. The only request we have is that you please wait to share your thoughts until the conference has completed. This will give you the best chance to listen and learn before responding. Lastly, I would like to include you in an open discussion time with Pastor Rick and a few other leaders on Thursday, May 22nd.
I truly hope you will accept this wonderful offer to come and learn. Please let me know by Monday, May 12th if we can count on you joining us. If you can, I will have our travel agent connect with you to take care of your travel needs. To learn more about this great gathering please click here PDC Gathering.
Sincerely,
Erik Rees
Saddleback Church
1 Saddleback Parkway
Lake Forest, CA 92630
Dear Erik,
I am in receipt of your invitation offering an all-expenses paid trip to Saddleback’s worship conference. I cannot accept your invitation. In the world of live church webcasts, book publishers, websites and so on, it is no longer necessary to travel to see a church to understand what it is all about. Your pastor’s copious writings, speeches and sermons are online and available for everyone to see and analyze in the light of God’s Word.
No amount of time spent with Rick Warren or the worship conference leaders at Saddleback can change basic facts. One of your speakers, Pastor Mark Batterson, recently referred readers on his website to the writings of New Age teacher, Eckhart Tolle, featured by Oprah Winfrey. He said that Tolle’s book, Practicing the Power of Now, was instrumental in the way he thought about life. I could not sit and listen to someone with that lack of discernment. Also featured at your worship conference is Pastor Jentezen Franklin, of the Free Chapel in Gainesville, Georgia. This is the pastor who featured a Michael Jackson Thriller dance on his church platform at a Halloween-themed service, complete with a haunted house set-up on stage. Again, how could I sit under that kind of pastor to learn about worship of the Most High God? Additionally, you have Pastor Mark Driscoll as a speaker. Mark’s filthy language and vulgarity is not fit for any woman’s ears, and I’m not about to subject myself to his disobedient use of coarse jesting in the name of ministry. It does not comport with the Scripture’s requirements for conduct in the office of the ministry. Pastor Mark Beeson of Granger Community Church will also be there to speak on the subject of worship. I cannot listen to a “pastor” who claims personal responsibility for the sex-sermon-campaigns by churches across the nation. These campaigns have brought complaints even from the unregenerate who are sick of their children getting hit with lewd materials in public places. Any pastor who is responsible for this kind of filth has nothing to share on the subject of worshiping our holy God.
Pastor Rick Warren has had vast financial resources to share with the world his solution to mankind’s problems. He, unfortunately, has chosen to introduce an entirely new generation to a social gospel, rather than the exclusive message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is telling that none of the E’s in his P.E.A.C.E. plan stand for “evangelism”. This is wrong.
I cannot agree to Rick Warren’s invitation. He has been biblically confronted repeatedly by those far more able than I regarding his numerous unbiblical teachings and the damage they have done to churches nationwide. We are to worship the Lord both in spirit and in truth. The mixture of truth and error is a dangerous combination spiritually, and that is why I will not be coming to Saddleback.
Sincerely,
Ingrid Schlueter
VCY America Radio Network
Looks like there will be no talking between Ingrid and Rick Warren, at least this side of heaven. Many of you know that we've followed the follies over at SliceofLaodicea.com over the years; the start-ups, the shut-downs; the put-downs and the put-upons. Well, it seems that in an effort for peace and reconciliation (or at the very least to open up lines of communication), Rick Warren has extended his hand to Ingrid and a place on his stage at Saddleback. Ingrid responded over the weekend with an open letter over at Slice. If you haven't already done so, please watch the video I posted today with Tim Keller talking about how religion can easily turn into oppression. I'm wondering... is this a little of what has happened with Ingrid and Rick? here's the letter...
Comments
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DanielR on Wed, May 21, 2008
CS:
You ask how I know my relationship with God is right without correct doctrine. I believe if my relationship with God is right, He will guide me to correct doctrine.
Who would you recommend I get “correct doctrine” from? How do I know your doctrine is correct? How do I know Ingrid’s or John MacArthur’s doctrine is right? How do I know John Shelby Spong is wrong?
I study and I pray. I try to follow where I am led and I pray that it is the Holy Spirit leading me.
Peter Hamm on Wed, May 21, 2008
If correct doctrine is any significant mark of eternal security whatsoever, since we seem to all disagree on at least small points and sometimes large ones… we are all hopelessly lost, indeed…
I wonder if that’s why Jesus said “follow me” instead of “study me”…
Peter Hamm on Wed, May 21, 2008
Also… what’s the prize for 100th comment this time…
CS on Wed, May 21, 2008
DanielR:
“You ask how I know my relationship with God is right without correct doctrine. I believe if my relationship with God is right, He will guide me to correct doctrine.”
What if the doctrine you come to shows that the way you have been engaging with God is wrong? Do you also see the circular pattern that emerges here with this line of thinking? “I believe that my relationship is right, therefore I find doctrine that confirms it, therefore my relationship is right.” Which leads to the next points…
“Who would you recommend I get “correct doctrine” from?”
More like “where” instead of “who.” And the answer is the Bible. You take whatever you are facing, whatever you are doing, go and look in the Bible for instruction, demonstration, and wisdom, and then apply that to your life. If what you are doing does not match up with the precepts, you change.
“How do I know your doctrine is correct? How do I know Ingrid’s or John MacArthur’s doctrine is right? How do I know John Shelby Spong is wrong? “
I believe if you look at their teaching in light of Scripture, you will see who is right and who is wrong. For example, Spong is clearly incorrect when he declares, “The view of the cross as the sacrifice for the sins of the world is a barbarian idea based on primitive concepts of God and must be dismissed.”
Peter:
“I wonder if that’s why Jesus said “follow me” instead of “study me”…”
And yet Paul tells Timothy to study, and we are commended through the Bible to gain wisdom and knowledge in Biblical things.
“Also… what’s the prize for 100th comment this time…”
An all-expense paid invitation to go and chat with Ingrid? Does that work for you? =)
—
CS
Wendi on Wed, May 21, 2008
CS –
To answer DanielR’s question about who has correct doctrine, you reply:
[More like “where” instead of “who.” And the answer is the Bible. You take whatever you are facing, whatever you are doing, go and look in the Bible for instruction, demonstration, and wisdom, and then apply that to your life. If what you are doing does not match up with the precepts, you change.]
But Daniel already said:
[I study and I pray. I try to follow where I am led and I pray that it is the Holy Spirit leading me.]
Are you saying you don’t believe him, and others of us who disagree with you doctrinally? You are implying that everyone who lands in a different doctrinal position on something doesn’t read their bibles. Many people wiser and more biblically knowledgeable than both of us disagree, sometimes strongly. Since they all carefully study the bible, how do any of us decide who’s right?
I believe Daniel’s method of allowing the HS to lead us is the correct (and ultimately the only) answer. Centuries ago, as the scriptures were being canonized, our faith fathers helped us discern the essentials. Beyond these things, though doctrine matters, it is not essential because it does not affect salvation.
Wendi
CS on Wed, May 21, 2008
Wendi:
Connecting two of your thoughts:
“Since they all carefully study the bible, how do any of us decide who’s right?”
And…
“I believe Daniel’s method of allowing the HS to lead us is the correct (and ultimately the only) answer. Centuries ago, as the scriptures were being canonized, our faith fathers helped us discern the essentials. Beyond these things, though doctrine matters, it is not essential because it does not affect salvation.”
I know this may sound snide, and believe me, that is not my intent. If no one can know who is right about things through studying the Bible, and if the Holy Spirit is the only answer, then why should doctrine even be established? Or why bother cross-referencing things through the Bible, when the Holy Spirit is the only answer?
—
CS
Peter Hamm on Wed, May 21, 2008
CS writes
[ If no one can know who is right about things through studying the Bible, and if the Holy Spirit is the only answer, then why should doctrine even be established? ]
I think the better question is, if no one can know 100% what is right and wrong about everything, isn’t it GREAT that we are saved by the blood of Jesus and not by mentally assenting to the correct list of doctrinal distinctives?
Once again, I reject the notion that there are correct things that must be believed to be saved, only the correct person to trust with my salvation… and that’s Jesus, and he is so big and powerful and he is so… well… GOD… that He gives us the Holy Spirit to lead us (eventually… not in one fell swoop or in one reading of Calvin’s Institutes) along our life-journey to truth.
Amen?
Wendi on Wed, May 21, 2008
CS – your comment doesn’t sound snide, but it does sound naïve. If in the 2,000+ years since Jesus walked the earth, about 1,000 of which the bible has been fairly available to the common man, His followers haven’t been able to agree on every doctrine, how is it that you think the day can (or even should) come when we all agree.
Plus, it shows (IMO) a very narrow view of God and the work of the HS. I believe that the HS did indeed lead Nazarene and Baptist and Pentecostal and dispensational and reformed and Arminian and Calvinist theologians, through their careful study of scripture. They were led to THE correct understanding of essentials and WHAT THEY BELIEVE is a correct understanding of non-essentials.
Peter said:
[I think the better question is, if no one can know 100% what is right and wrong about everything, isn’t it GREAT that we are saved by the blood of Jesus and not by mentally assenting to the correct list of doctrinal distinctives?]
Yes indeed, I say AMEN to that!!
Wendi (#99)
Leonard Lee on Wed, May 21, 2008
CS. you argue against RW from silence. If you were to sit down face to face with him and ask. Do you believe in repentance? what do you honestly believe he would say?
100 for Leonard
CS on Thu, May 22, 2008
Leonard Lee:
“CS. you argue against RW from silence. If you were to sit down face to face with him and ask. Do you believe in repentance? what do you honestly believe he would say?”
I know that he would say he believes in repentance. The question I would be asking him instead is, “Why does it seem you never mention repentance when you preach and share the Gospel with the lost? Jesus, Peter, and John the Baptist all did it; why don’t you?”
I know that many people here dislike alittleleaven.com, but go look at their video clips on YouTube where Warren has copious chances to share the Gospel including repentance on programs like Fox News, and see what messages he delivers, and how it doesn’t match the Bible.
—
CS
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