Being Slain in the Spirit Can Be Dangerous and Financially Rewarding
- Posted on April 14, 2010
- Viewed 2813 timess
- (101) comments
A woman in Michigan has won a sizable monetary judgement against her church.. Here's the deal. Mount Hope Church held a service in which Judith Dadd got a little too much of the Spirt and fell, injuring herself...
Sounds like a Benny Hinn push gone bad.
But anyway... in her lawsuit, Ms. Dadd claimed her pastor defamed her when he accused her of insurance fraud, faking her injuries, and renouncing her faith. A previous jury had awarded Dadd $317 in damages for her injuries as well as slander, libel, and false light.
The most recent court decision affirmed Dadd's negligence claim (worth $40k), but reversed the damages for libel, slander, and false light.
You can read the article here.
Hmm... lots of questions here.
1. Would God allow you to hurt yourself while worshipping him? I'm not sure that I've ever heard of this kind of worship-related injury before.
2. What responsibility does a church have in this kind of instance?
3. Can we agree that it probably would have been good for the pastor not to accuse of insurance fraud and faking injuries?
4. But what if she really was faking injuries and committing insurance fraud? Should the pastor have been justified in calling her out if that's what she was doing?
5. Maybe we should change the terminology from 'slain in the spirit' to 'impaired in the spirit'. If she would have actually been 'slain', there would have been a lot more damages.
Ok. Time to turn off my mind. It's getting me nowhere.
What do YOU think?
Todd
Comments
if you want a Globally Recognized Avatar (the images next to your profile) get them here. Once you sign up, your picture will displayed on any website that supports gravitars.
Leonard on Thu, April 15, 2010
I believe in tongues as a gift today but not the gibberish I see on TV and I am not a secessionist.
Who are you to discuss this with me? I don’t know… who are you?
What’s with all the snarky diva attitude. Did you come here to pick a fight?
JOB on Thu, April 15, 2010
Leonard,
You asked me a question. If you don’t want an answer don’t ask.
We talked on the phone for two hours and you still don’t know who I am?
Drop me a line, we’ll talk again.
Leonard on Thu, April 15, 2010
So is that the answer to why so snarky diva attitude or who are you. I am not sure which. Either way, are you using John 18 and Saul’s conversion as biblical examples of being slain? That is my question.
CS on Thu, April 15, 2010
JOB:
“What I’m saying is that people can fall when encountered by the presence of God.”
Let’s take this to be the definition of, “slain in the spirit.” Yes, I can agree with you that there is biblical evidence of people, who when they encountered God, fell back like the Roman soldiers and Paul. But here’s the question: is this descriptive, or prescriptive?
My own personal take on it is that someone involuntarily falling down due to God happened so infrequently in the Bible that it would not be a normative thing to happen in churches today.
There are tons of charismatic churches where people line up in droves and all fall down, usually at the guidance of someone touching them or listening to music, which I see as manipulative or a form of social programming rather than the action of the Holy Spirit. And, given the absence of verses in the Bible that describes how a person should feel or what circumstances should take place should the Holy Spirit come upon someone and lay them out, I cannot exegete personal experience or what I see today to say it is biblical.
Is it possible that some people who fall in churches today are legitimately affected by the Holy Spirit? Possibly; I wouldn’t discount that. But I would discount it being a prescriptive or regularly-occurring part of the Christian faith.
Also, did you notice that I did not once drop the H-bomb on this posting? That’s because I believe people who fall down involuntarily, Holy Spirit or not, may indeed be brothers and sisters in Christ. I just disagree with their reasoning and would likely not go to the same church as them when we worship. Gotta have local unity in how we worship here.
—
CS
JOB on Thu, April 15, 2010
Leonard,
Whatever, I’m not going to formulate a doctrine on something, where there is none, only for you and Peter to tear it apart. Come to the plate with a definition for “slain in the Spirit” like I suggested and we can talk. I’m not doiing all the work. For the record there are so many other practices that happen in the church that have no clear doctrine that are widely accepted. I also find it quite strange that every one in this conversation is open to the gifts of the Spirit but no one can believe what I experienced.
As for my perceived “diva snarky” attitude. The diva part is good by the way. You mentioned so many times how much you really like me I think. With so much love flowing between us is there a reason I need to check my attitude at the door?
CS,
” I just disagree with their reasoning and would likely not go to the same church as them when we worship.”
I really don’t get this point. If we can’t worship together then how can we be called brothers? I don’t understand the Bible that way.
Leonard on Thu, April 15, 2010
Jesus said to them, �I am He.� And Judas, who betrayed Him, also stood with them. Then when He said to them. �I am He,� � they drew back and fell to the ground.�
And as he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, �Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?�
This is the argument you brought in a previous post. I cut and pasted it from your post. So is this your biblical understanding of this phenomena in the church. Pretty straight forward question. I am not asking you to do all the work, I am asking if the scriptures YOU used are your biblical texts you use to understand being slain. You seem to be avoiding that question.
As for liking you, or not liking you… this too is your argument not mine. It seems when you get called on an thought or attitude you attack… or get defensive.
For the record… You have come into MMI and blasted church leaders and churches. I remember our 2 hour conversation as well about this very issue. Look into the archives of MMI where you have posted.
You used the scripture references… now you wont stand by them? You put words in CS mouth, and made sweeping accusations about our belief in the power of God to do something. (BTW, our belief in the power of God is simply a misdirection and totally not the point of this)
I have not mentioned so many times how much I like you… I simply said I do not dislike you in any way.
With so much love is there any reason to check the attitude at the door. Sure there is. It is called respect.
You have come across here as someone who is trying to provoke a fight. I am not going to play that game with you.
If you will not stand by the scriptures you mentioned then can I assume you also see not biblical precedence for being slain in the Spirit?
JOB on Thu, April 15, 2010
“If you will not stand by the scriptures you mentioned then can I assume you also see not biblical precedence for being slain in the Spirit?”
Assume anything you want Leonard. In the long run, does it really make a difference, BTW your church phone line is disconnected.
Leonard on Thu, April 15, 2010
It is changed… 916-835-6360
Fred on Thu, April 15, 2010
And don’t forget the person who has to throw a blanket over the ladies when the spirit makes them fall in such a way that their dress flies up over their head (why does he do that?).
Remember what your mother said about clean underwear and don’t wear a thong or go au naturel to church.
If God wants them to fall out would catchers be Antichrist?
wholenikeaaa on Fri, April 16, 2010
http://www.brandshoesvip.com As its name indicates, brandshoesvip.com provides you a variety of shoes with all the different brands available. If boys, you still don��t know a good place to shop shoes, I think you really should come to the web to have a good look at it.
Here, you can find all the sports shoes of different brands. Just click to see what it offers to you, you will find all the shoes here are fashionable and are of good qualify. What’s more, the price of the shoes I think can surely be accepted by you, because it is just reasonable and much cheaper than you buy in real shops. I recommend you to have a good look at all the shoes before you decide to buy. If you like a specific brand, such as Jordan, you can click into and choose from the many different styles and colors of each pair of shoes. Expect for the brand of Jordan, you can also find such brands as Nike, Supra, Reebok, Adidas and so on. You can choose them as you wish. I think this is a really good place for you to buy shoes. Boys usually like shoes with a good brand. Here in the web can just make all the boys satisfied.
Except for so many choices for shoes here, brandshoesvip.com also sells clothes in different sports brand. Take the brand ��Gucci�� for example, after you click into, you��ll find there are T-shirts, Jackets, Jeans, Shorts, Sweaters and other accessories that boys welcome. So it��s really good for you.
People like sports very much, so you are really in need of good shoes. Clothes and accessories are less important for them compared to a good pair of shoes. When you are playing basketball, a good pair of shoes usually can make the players play much better. Don��t you think so? So when your team is competing with another team, please make sure all your team members are wearing good shoes.
I think this web must be welcomed by you. So it��s really quick for you to buy something, especially shoes, which are so important in their daily life. At last, I want to say just enjoy the convenience of shopping your desired shoes right on brandshoesvip.com.
wholenikeaaa on Fri, April 16, 2010
http://www.brandshoesvip.com As its name indicates, brandshoesvip.com provides you a variety of shoes with all the different brands available. If boys, you still don��t know a good place to shop shoes, I think you really should come to the web to have a good look at it.
Here, you can find all the sports shoes of different brands. Just click to see what it offers to you, you will find all the shoes here are fashionable and are of good qualify. What’s more, the price of the shoes I think can surely be accepted by you, because it is just reasonable and much cheaper than you buy in real shops. I recommend you to have a good look at all the shoes before you decide to buy. If you like a specific brand, such as Jordan, you can click into and choose from the many different styles and colors of each pair of shoes. Expect for the brand of Jordan, you can also find such brands as Nike, Supra, Reebok, Adidas and so on. You can choose them as you wish. I think this is a really good place for you to buy shoes. Boys usually like shoes with a good brand. Here in the web can just make all the boys satisfied.
Except for so many choices for shoes here, brandshoesvip.com also sells clothes in different sports brand. Take the brand ��Gucci�� for example, after you click into, you��ll find there are T-shirts, Jackets, Jeans, Shorts, Sweaters and other accessories that boys welcome. So it��s really good for you.
CindyK on Fri, April 16, 2010
Pardon me for interrupting the shoe commercial, but I wanted to add that while I have never experienced being ‘slain in the spirit’ I do not doubt that the presence of God can bring someone to their knees, or their backside as the case may be.
And while I have never found myself on the floor in Church other than on my knees, I have been shoved by a Preacher and I would have fallen down had I not stepped backwards. It annoyed me. He had his hand on my forehead while praying a very nice prayer, btw - and the shove was surprising. But I think he was just as surprised when I was bull headed enough to push back with my head.
That shove did make me think less of that Pastor - who was a visitor to my regular church.
If I am ever to experience this ‘slaying in the spirit’ I want it to be honest. I am skeptical enough to think that most of the time it is not.
Leonard and CS - I’m still laughing both at CS’s unexpected but hilarious post, and at the link Leonard provided: Let the bodies hit the floor. Both are classics.
Michael C on Fri, April 16, 2010
Dr. Sam Chand (who is a Pentecostal minister) said, ‘I have a theory about people falling out.. i think if there were no catchers, a whole lot less folk would be falling out’
Ed Gillies on Sat, April 17, 2010
Todd,
The most recent ruling was by the Michigan Supreme Court The Court reinstated the original judgment and damages awarded by the jury trial. This opinion overturned the ruling of the Appeals Court that had reversed the damages for libel, slander and false light made by the lower Court. The Appeals Court had decided that as head of an organization, the pastor had qualified privilege to make any statements he wanted to, whether true or false, to members of his organization. The Supreme Court overturned that ruling.
The negligence part of the ruling was never challenged although that has been what has brought the most attention to this case. Ms Dadd never wanted this to go to trial. After the accident happened, she made repeated attempts to meet with the pastor but from day one, he stated she was faking her injuries and refused to talk to her.
Should this have gone to court? No, but the scriptural way of handling this issue was never considered. Originally, Ms Dadd simply needed some financial assistance to pay for the mounting medical bills that were accumulating due to the specialists that she was seeing with her head injury. She went to the church that she had been a member of for over 10 years. She had volunteered there for several hours each week. Her relationships and basically her whole life revolved around the church.
However, overnight after an accident that was seen before many witnesses, she was branded as a fraud and shunned from her church. Additionally, her small business suffered not only from the impact of the head injury but the “word” from the pastor that she was dishonest.
Looking past the elements of whether or not one can be “slain in the Spirit” or if one will be hurt from a fall if there is no one there to catch them, the biggest question in this case - one that has an impact on anyone who has ever suffered from spiritual abuse from a trusted leader is that of qualified privilege. Does the pastor have a right to say anything he wants to about a person? In this case, his words were not spoken in a boardroom or staff meeting but before over 400 people. Additionally it was recorded and made available for purchase in the church’s bookstore. As if that were not enough, a letter was mailed to over 100 people with more accusations stating that Ms Dadd had denied her faith. This letter included special scripture verses that referred to the demise of various enemies of God that the recipients were instructed to pray against this woman.
This is certainly not the first time this pastor has used these tactics against someone that he perceived to be an enemy. His use of the bully pulpit has been extensive over several decades. This was just the first time someone decided to try to not let it continue.
Ms Dadd has paid a heavy price personally for making this stand. Thankfully, she has not lost her faith in God and He has blessed her in the midst of this. But many people who she thought were her friends abandoned her. The saddest part of this ordeal was that she lost her church family.
So what about it? Here is the question that affects every member of the Body of Christ: Does a pastor have qualified privilege?
A. Amos Love on Sat, April 17, 2010
Ed
Hmmm? Does a pastor have qualified privilege?
Had to look that up.
The defense of “qualified privilege” permits persons in positions of authority or trust to make statements or relay or report statements that would be considered slander and libel if made by anyone else.
Interesting, never heard that one before.
You write…
“Here is the question that affects every member of the Body of Christ: Does a pastor have qualified privilege?
Isn’t this just another case of “Spiritual Abuse” by so called pastors?
Seen it over and over again.
In my experience…
“Titles” become idols… Ezek 14:1-7
“Pastors” become masters… Mat 23:8-10
Pastors = exercise authority = lord it over = abuse = always.
After finally leaving �the religious system,�
(Much pain, tears and spiritual abuse.)
And struggling with these things about elders/leaders/pastors/bishops, etc.
I find many questions most do not want to address or consider.
How about these questions…
Hmmm? Today’s �Pastor/leader,�
is this a �Title� or “position” in the scriptures?
In the Bible, How many people… have the title pastor?
In the Bible, How many people are… referred to as pastor?
In the Bible, How many people are… ordained as a pastor?
In the Bible, How many congregations are… led by a pastor?
Here is the question that affects every member of the Body of Christ:
Today’s �Pastor/leader,� is this a �Title� or “position” in the scriptures?
If this �Title� and �position� is NOT in the scriptures;
Now what do you do?
Do you continue to “perpetrate the myth?”
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice;
and there shall be �ONE� fold, and �ONE� shepherd.
John 10:16
One Fold - One Shepherd - One Voice.
If Not Now, When?
Be blessed in your search for truth… Jesus
Page 3 of 7 pages < 1 2 3 4 5 > Last »
Post a Comment