Being Slain in the Spirit Can Be Dangerous and Financially Rewarding

Posted on April 14, 2010
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A woman in Michigan has won a sizable monetary judgement against her church.. Here's the deal. Mount Hope Church held a service in which Judith Dadd got a little too much of the Spirt and fell, injuring herself...

Sounds like a Benny Hinn push gone bad.

But anyway... in her lawsuit, Ms. Dadd claimed her pastor defamed her when he accused her of insurance fraud, faking her injuries, and renouncing her faith. A previous jury had awarded Dadd $317 in damages for her injuries as well as slander, libel, and false light.

The most recent court decision affirmed Dadd's negligence claim (worth $40k), but reversed the damages for libel, slander, and false light.

You can read the article here.

Hmm... lots of questions here.

1. Would God allow you to hurt yourself while worshipping him? I'm not sure that I've ever heard of this kind of worship-related injury before.

2. What responsibility does a church have in this kind of instance?

3. Can we agree that it probably would have been good for the pastor not to accuse of insurance fraud and faking injuries?

4. But what if she really was faking injuries and committing insurance fraud? Should the pastor have been justified in calling her out if that's what she was doing?

5. Maybe we should change the terminology from 'slain in the spirit' to 'impaired in the spirit'. If she would have actually been 'slain', there would have been a lot more damages.

Ok. Time to turn off my mind. It's getting me nowhere.

What do YOU think?

Todd

Comments

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A. Amos Love on Sun, April 25, 2010

Curious

Yes, Heb 13 was a challenge when I first left �The Religious System.�
Abusive �leaders� use the �Obey your leaders� over and over again.
It is really drummed into you, along with…
Don�t touch the head of God�s anointed, and;
Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.
Left �The Religious System� with lot�s of guilt, shame and fear.
Lot�s of Benefits - found out Jesus really loves me.

�Pastors?� teach a lot about �obey your Leaders� and �church authority�
but, NOT much teaching or �examples to the flock� of
submitting one to another, and esteeming others better then themselves.
Eph 5:21, Php 2:3.

Heb 13:7 KJV
Remember them which have �the rule over you,�
who have spoken unto you the word of God:
whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Heb 13:17 KJV
Obey them that have �the rule over you,�
and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls…

Heb 13:24 KJV
Salute all them that have �the rule over you,�
and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.

The Greek word �hegeomai� is 28 times in the NT.
Only 3 times as, �have the rule over� all in Heb 13.
Modern translations often use �leader� here.

It is Strongs #2233 hegeomai. In the KJV it is translated,
KJV - count 10, think 4, esteem 3, have rule over 3, be governor 2,

It does have the understanding, to lead.
It also means, to guide, to go before.
So here �leader� hegeomai, can mean � A guide who goes before?
I think of the cowboy �leading� the wagon train west.
He�s been there before, knows the way, I�d be wise to listen.

Or, How abusive �leaders� see it - I�m the leader/boss?
Don�t question my authority, or be rebellious. Guilt, shame and fear.
No - Your just my brother and you have been wrong before. Yes?

Seems the qualification to who we submit to is in…
Heb 13:7 �who have spoken unto you the word of God.�
Heb 13:17, �they watch for your souls.�
Not a �Title� pastor or a �position� overseer or elder.
NO �Title� or �position� is mentioned in Heb 13. Hmmm?
BUT, someone who knows you, cares for you and watches for your soul.

This hegeomai, �guide who goes before,� is being attentive to �me.�
Speaking the word of God to �me� and watching for �my� soul.
Not demanding that I submit to him.

How many �pastor/leaders� of mega churches can do that.

What�s the number, of any cogregation today, where the
�pastor/leader� knows �me� personally?

If they aren�t �watching for your soul� do you submit?
Not anymore. Thank you Jesus.

The Greek word for �Obey� in Heb 13:17
is the root word for faith.

Strongs #3982 peitho - pi’-tho

KJV - persuade 22, trust 8, obey 7,
have confidence 6, believe 3, be confident 2,

Hmmm? persuade, trust, have confidence, believe.
Maybe that word �obey� then, is different
from how we understand �obey� today. Yes?

The very next verse, Heb 13:18, uses #3982 peitho also.
Only this time it is NOT obey. The word is TRUST.

Heb 13:18
Pray for us: for we *TRUST* we have a good conscience,
in all things willing to live honestly.

Paul uses #3982 peitho, here in, Gal 5:10.
I have *confidence* in you through the Lord.

Maybe we need to go to God and ask Him what
�He� really means here by �obey� in Heb 13:17.

Deuteronomy 4:36
Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice,
that he might instruct thee.

Outside of Heb 13 in your version is �leader� ever used? Where?
Are�Elders� ever mentioned as �leader� in your Bible?

It�s interesting that �hegeomai� is also �esteem� 3 times.

Php 2:3
Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory;
but in lowliness of mind let each *esteem* other
better than themselves.

1Th 5:13
And to *esteem* them very highly
in love for their work�s sake…

The same word �hegeomai,� which many refer to as leader/boss, a high place,
is used when encouraging those who need to be in �lowliness of mind�
and to �esteem� others better than themselves. A low place.

The way I see it now; If someone insists that they are �my�leader,
And they �have the rule over me,� I can check them out with these quidelines.
They need to be in �lowliness of mind�
and �esteeming� others better than themselves. Yes?

That � hegeomai� is different then today�s pastor/leader. Yes?
Don�t find many �leaders/pastors/elders� esteeming others
better then themselves today. Or submitting one to another.
They seem to want the TOP spot. The honor, the glory.

You can tell which �hegeomai� is present when
confronted with opposition or a different opinion.
What kind of fruit do we see when today�s �overseer/elder� is challenged;
**Accusation*** Argument***Ridicule***Name Calling**
or �lowliness of mind?� �Love, joy and peace?� �Submitting, one to another?�

Here�s Heb 13:17 in the �NKJAV.�

That�s the �New King James Amos Version.�

Heb 13:17
Be persuaded by, trust, and obey, those you have confidence in
and those you esteem, as they guide you, and think to submit yourselves:
for they watch, pray and are paying attention to your soul…

IMO - Pastor/leader = exercise authority = lord it over = abuse = always

Be blessed in your search for truth… Jesus.
A. Amos Love on Sun, April 25, 2010

Curious

Sorry for the delay in answering. Busy with stuff.

Check out these sites…
Pastor/leaders, and their families, pay a horrible price.

http://www.pastorcare.org/PastorCare/Healing___Health.html

� 77% say they do �not� have a good marriage.
� 71% have felt burned out or depressed.
� 70% do not have someone they consider a close friend.
� 38% are divorced or seriously considering divorce.
� Over 1600 pastors in the U.S. are forced out of their positions each month.

1600 a month; That�s a lot of pain, tears, and Spiritual abuse. Yes?

pastoralcareinc.com/WhyPastoralCare/Statistics.php

# 80% believe pastoral ministry has negatively affected their families.
..............Many pastor’s children do not attend church now
...............because of what the church has done to their parents.
# 50% of the ministers starting out will not last 5 years.
# 33% state that being in the ministry is an outright hazard to their family.
#1 reason pastors leave the ministry � Church people are not willing to go
the same direction and goal of the pastor.

Video interview about the book �Leaders Who Last.�
The author says �Only 30% of Leaders Last.� That�s 70% FAIL. Oy Vey! :-(

thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2010/02/28/leaders-who-last/

Think we might have a problem with this �Pastor/Leader� thing?
CS on Sun, April 25, 2010

A Amos:

You’ve had bad experiences. And it seems that there are websites that tally how many pastors struggle with things. It sucks on both accounts. That still doesn’t discount you from needing to be under the guidance of one in a biblical relationship. To willfully do so really gets close to that line of sinning.

And to try to put to rest the matter of pastor/elders ruling over a local body of believers, I give you 1 Timothy 5:17:

“Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.”

—
CS
Casey Sabella on Mon, April 26, 2010

I was “slain” in the Spirit some 37 years ago. No one pushed. I was neither emotionally caught up nor interested in becoming horizontal during a church service. That day, God imparted me the gift of teaching which I have dispensed publicly not less than 6000 times over 37 years of ministry as a pastor. I don’t much care if you validate that experience of not, but I will take this occasion to warn you. The only person who can be completely flip about such experiences are those who believe they fully know God’s mind and heart. Good luck with that.

I have pretty much seen it all. I have witnessed both faith healers and fake healers; servants of God and scheisters who abuse the flock. I have been prayed for by ministers who attempted to push me to the ground with little success and prayed for by people in the Spirit whose prayers brought nearly instantaneous relief/change. I have witnessed nearly every disease known to man healed through the power of God (and Dr. certified) as well as frauds who have attempted to blame the sick for not becoming well due to “lack of faith.” I could go on, but hopefully you get the point.

No one on this blog nor anyone else fully knows the mind of God. He can do what He wants through whom He wants whenever He wants without checking with anyone to see if it fits their doctrinal point of view. I suppose that is one of the great things about being God.

I am certain Jonathan Edwards was quite surprised by what happened in Enfield, CT back in 1740 during the Great Awakening when men and women screamed out in anguish as they responded to his monotone preaching. Thank God he didn’t reject the experience because it did not fit his doctrinal paradigm, but judged each occurrence on the fruit (or lack thereof) that the individual experience produced.

I have never been “slain” again and never looked for it. Is a lot of what happens today more a circus act than an act of God? Perhaps. But I will not sit on the sidelines and make sweeping judgments on any experience lest I find myself judging God. If you feel comfortable doing so, may God bless you as much as He can.
David Andrus on Mon, April 26, 2010

Slain in the spirit???? The Holy Spirit wouldn’t have anything to do with such stupidity…stupid, stupid, stupid.
A. Amos Love on Mon, April 26, 2010

CS

you write…
“That still doesn�t discount you from needing to be under the guidance of one in a biblical relationship.”

Much agreement, there are quite a few who I esteem, submit to,
and run things by. Lot’s of �one an others� in the Bible.
We are “ONE” body. Even those young in the Lord have great insight.

Get together often, where two or three are, and Jesus shows up.
Some I’ve just met and some I’ve known for 25 years.
and a larger group, 10 - 15, weekly for five years.

I have confidence in these folks and their walk with the Lord.
They have been proved, again and again, through many challenges.
Most are mature saints. And a few young one�s who love the truth.
Some have given up their �Titles� and �Postion� to follow Jesus.

When we get together time disappears. We call it “EternaTime.”
We get caught up in Jesus. And the things He is showing us.
Everyone can and is expected to participate.
To share what God is teaching them now. Present truth. 2 Pet 2:12.

1 Cor 14:26
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together,
every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue,
hath a revelation, hath an interpretation.
Let all things be done unto edifying.

We meet in homes, restaurants, book stores, shopping malls, wherever.
Sometimes planned. Sometimes spur of the moment.

The �Spiritual Abuse� suffered had many benefits.
Asked differnt questions. Received differnt answers.

The freedom, the liberty to be led by the Spirit is wonderful.

Blessings.
A. Amos Love on Mon, April 26, 2010

CS

You write…
�I give you 1 Timothy 5:17:

“Let the elders that �rule well� be counted worthy of double honour,
especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.”

�Ruling Well� seems to be a precarious, complex, issue. Yes?

Jesus taught �His Disciples� NOT to be called �Master/Leader.�
Jesus taught �His Disciples� NOT to �exercise authority.�

Does Peter tell �All� in 1 Peter 5:1-5, What �Ruling Well� means?

1- Feed the flock of God… not for filthy lucre…
2- Neither as being lords over God�s heritage…
3- Being ensamples to the flock.
4- Younger, submit yourselves unto the elder…
5- All of you be subject one to another…
6- Be clothed with humility.

Ever try showing and revealing to a �Pastor/Reverend�
he is dealing with some character and qualification defects…

1 - He has taken a �Title� NOT in the Bible? Reverend.
2 - He is �exercising authority� like the gentiles?
3 - He is being a Lord over God�s heritage?
4 - He is NOT an exsample to the flock of submitting one to another?
5 - He is NOT clothed with humility?
6 - He does NOT meet the qualifications in 1 Tim 3, and Titus.
For a bishop �must be� blameless. Hmmm?

How many of these qualifications for elder/bishop can we ignore?
Before we admit - This �Elder� is NOT �Ruling Well?�

Do you have to submit to an elder who is NOT �Ruling Well?�
Not any more. Thank you Jesus.
CS on Mon, April 26, 2010

A Amos:

“Do you have to submit to an elder who is NOT �Ruling Well?�
Not any more. Thank you Jesus.”

Fine, then find one who is ruling well and submit to him. Problem solved.

—
CS
A. Amos Love on Mon, April 26, 2010

CS

Why did Paul give qualifications if not important?
Ever meet anyone who fulfills the qualifications for �elder/bishop?

An overseer, elder, �Must be�...

That �must be� is the same Greek word as
...You �must be� born again. John 3:17
Seems to be a small word but very important.

It�s Strongs #1163, die. - It is necessary (as binding).
Computer - necessity established by the counsel
and decree of God.

Bishops �must be.� Hmmm? Very important or…?

Blameless… How important is this word?

Webster�s - Without fault; innocent; guiltless;
not meriting censure.

Synonyms - faultless, guiltless, innocent,
irreproachable, spotless, unblemished.

Computer - that cannot be reprehended,
(cannot be, rebukable, reprovable, cannot find fault)
not open to censure, irreproachable.

Strongs #423 - anepileptos
inculpable, blameless, unrebukeable.

How many, who honestly examine themselves,
seriously considering these qualifications,
can see themselves as blameless, without fault
and thus qualify to be an overseer, elder?

And if you can see yourself as blameless;
Is that pride? And no longer without fault?

The Bible talks about bishops, and elders.
And qualifications for bishops and elders.
Can you have one without the other?

This is only one of many qualifications.

**blameless—- unrebukeable, without fault.
husband of one wife—- married, male.
rules well his own house—- have a family, children.
not greedy of filthy lucre—- Not greedy for money.
vigilant—- no excessive wine, calm in spirit.
sober—- of a sound mind, self controlled.
of good behavior—- modest, unassuming, reserved.
no striker—- not quarrelsome, contentious.
not a brawler—- abstaining from fighting.
not self willed—- not self pleasing, not arrogant.
not soon angry—not prone to anger.
temperate—- having power over, restraining.
**holy—- undefiled by sin, free from wickedness.
**just—- righteous, virtuous, innocent, faultless.

Not only do elders have to qualify but also their children.

�having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly�

faithful—- believing, one who trusts in God’s promises.
not accused of riot—- Strongs - asotia—- unsavedness.
...an abandoned dissolute life, lost to principle.
unruly—- disobedient.

if someone thinks they qualify?
Is that pride and thus NOT without fault?

The Bible talks about elders and qualifications for elders.
Can you have one with out the other?

I love and promote these qualifications
especially when someone thinks they have
the �postion� and �Title� of �elder/leader.�

I just can�t find �one� person who can live up to the qualifications.
�Blameless�- �Holy� - �Just.� And their children.

Can you?

Do you have to submit to an elder who does NOT meet the qualifications?
Do you have to submit to an elder who is NOT �Ruling Well?�
Not any more. Thank you Jesus.
Peter Hamm on Mon, April 26, 2010

Does every believer have the right to and task of deciding if their overseers are ruling well? Can you say “chaos”?

Amos, I can understand if you found yourself in a bad situation, but imho, you are using it as an excuse to live outside the bounds of accountability that are very obviously put in place in Scripture for good reasons.

CS writes [Fine, then find one who is ruling well and submit to him. Problem solved.] THIS!
A. Amos Love on Mon, April 26, 2010

Peter

Yes. I was also taught - Without �leaders� there would be choas.

Well, look around you, at todays version of Christanity.
We have �Elder/Leaders� all over the place.

And we have choas, lot�s of chaos. = a state lacking order or predictability.

We have the �Evangelical Lutheran Church in America�
How are they doing as a witness for Christ? Who are they ordaining? :-(
Seems they are splitting again. Some aren�t happy with the elder/leaders.

We have the �Episcopal Church of America�
How are they doing as a witness for Christ? Who are they ordaining? :-(
Seems they are splitting again. Some aren�t happy with the elder/leaders.

We have the �Catholic Church of Rome�
How are they doing as a witness for Christ? Who are they ordaining? :-(
Some aren�t happy with the elder/leaders, popes and priests.

Jimmy Baker, Jimmy Swagert, John Piper, Francis Chan,
Want more. Just getting started…

Let�s see…. We have

The Traditional Church,
The Institutional Church,
The Religious System Church,
The Steeple $ Corporation Church,
The 501c3, non profit, tax deductible,
Religious $ Corporation Church,
The Brick and Mortar Church,
The Pastor Led Church,
The Multiple Elder Led Church,
The Congregational Led Church,
The Pope Led Church,
The Bishop Led Church,
The Chief Executive Apostle Led Church,
There really is a Chief Executive Apostle
No Kidding. Saw it with my own eyes.
The Fluid Church,
The Solid Church,
The House Church,
The Simple Church,
The Organic Church,
The Small Group Church,
The Institutional Church,
Oh, i said that one already.
The Denominational Church,
The Non-Denominational Church,
The Inter - Denominational Church,
The Intra - Denominational Church,
The Underground Church,
The Full Gospel Church,
The Mega Church,
The Baptist Church,
The Lutheran Church,
The Evangelical Church,
The Charis maniacle ism Church,
The Pente it�s going to cost you a Lot ism Church,

Wikapedia says there are 38,000 denominations. Oy Vey!!!
Even if they overstated by 90%, that�s still 3,800 denominations.

All started by elder/leaders who were not happy with the elder/leaders.
How does that sound to you; as a witness for Christ? 3,800. Wow! :-(
That gives the world a lot of confidence in what �Elders� are doing.

3,800 - All with elder/leaders. �Chaos� anyone?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations

Doesn�t Jesus want to be our leader? Why isn�t Jesus enough?
CS on Mon, April 26, 2010

A Amos:

So by your logic, all of the writings that God did through Paul where He laid out the foundation for the position, duty, and title of elder were with the intent that someone would never be able to fulfill those requirements. In other words, 1 Timothy and Titus were written not to show who an elder should be, but to set the bar so high for the position that no one can practically achieve them. This must have been God’s way of pointing out how that position is wrong.

And by that same logic, Peter must have been a liar when he said he was an elder, because we know he was clearly not blameless—he was even called Satan by Jesus Himself. And no one else who has ever had the title legitimately possessed it, too. So, might as well use it as a barometer for false teaching, right?

I’m with Peter Hamm on this one. I see now that you’re using your experiences to excuse your responsibility to find a local body of believers and submit to church leadership.

—
CS
A. Amos Love on Mon, April 26, 2010

Peter

You write…
�Does every believer have the right to and task of deciding if their overseers are ruling well?�

Yes - Absolutely - Definitely - Without a doubt. Our God given right.

They better �know� those who claim to be special, above the rest.
They better �know� those who are asking for $ money and to submit.

The Bible warns about 1-False apostles. 2- Many false prophets.
3- False teachers.4- False brethren. 5- False Christ�s (false anointed ones).
6- Deceitful workers.7- Evil workers. 8- Dogs and Swine.

Mark 13:22
For **false Christ�s** (false anointed ones) and **false prophets** shall rise…

Galatians 2:4
And that because of **false brethren** unawares brought in…

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe NOT every spirit,
but **try the spirits** whether they are of God:
because �MANY� ** false prophets** are gone out into the world.

Matthew 24:11
And �MANY� **false prophets** shall rise, and shall deceive many.

2 Corinthians 11:13
For such are **false apostles,** ** deceitful workers, **
transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

Jeremiah 14:14
Then the LORD said unto me, **The prophets prophesy lies** in my name…

2 Peter 2:1
But there were **false prophets** also among the people,
even as there shall be **false teachers** among you…

Philippians 3:2
Beware of dogs, Beware of evil workers, Beware of the concision.

Matthew 7:15
Beware of **false prophets,** which come to you in sheep’s clothing.

Jeremiah 17:5
Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man,
and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

Isaiah 30:1
Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me;
and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit.

Checking out elders �Ruling Well� is simple. Qualifications are right there.

Are they submitting one to another, considering others better then themselves,
clothed with humility, NOT wanting the preeminence, family in order,
You know the rest.

Jesus loves me and forgives me all my sin
Zad on Mon, April 26, 2010

How about Rev. 1:17? Pretty clear that John was “in the spirit” on that day, had a revelation of Jesus and fell at his feet… as though he was dead.”

Admitedly there is not mention of a “catcher.”

I have had several experiences. The first was when a young kid preacher about 10 years old pushed on my forehead, to be fair, I don’t know if God was in it because I saw others going over and I said to myself over and over, NO WAY I’m going down! And I didn’t.

Another time, older man same deal.

Then one day in service I was feeling particularly in touch with Jesus. The pastor prayed for me. I just let myself relax in God’s presence. I wasn’t “knocked down” like Paul or the guards. But I did lay on the floor as worship music played without a care in the world. I felt WONDERFUL.

(and I was glad there were people to help me to the ground.)

People going prostrate have ALWAYS been a part of worship. Good golly guys we even sing, “LET ANGELS PROSTRATE FALL!)

Are people faking it? Probably some. Personally, faking or not faking wasn’t in my mind. Just total relaxation in the presence of Christ and I pretty much didn’t care if anyone else was in the room. cept maybe the catchers…

I don’t know what the case is with Benny H. and others. Frankly its not my business to know. The experience doesn’t take away from Jesus does it? How can I or you evaluate if its of God or not? Kind of like CS asked earlier… how do you know she was in the spirit?”

Those of you who fight it, and make fun of it. Don’t know what you are missing.

By the way, hasn’t happened since. But I’d love to enjoy that again. Frankly, I don’t think Jesus will let you experience something like this if you don’t believe in it. (the guards and Saul excluded.)
A. Amos Love on Mon, April 26, 2010

CS

Not my logic - Paul and Peter gave us the qualifications.
I just believe they are important. Don�t you?
I�ve struggled with this stuff. Want to know the truth. Don�t you?

Which one�s can we overlook? Which one�s are not important?
The church, as most see it, is a mess. And there are lot�s of elders.
Does anyone care at all about the qualifications? Doesn�t look like it.
People taking �Titles� NOT in the Bible?

There might have been some meeting the qualifications two thousand years ago.
But, I haven�t found one �bishop/overseer,� today, who is does. Have you?
Does anyone you know qualify as �elder?� Do you qualify as �elder?�

But some would question; Don�t you need leaders/elders in the church?
Depends on which church?
Church of God? or Church of man? Hmmm?

Didn�t Paul also leave us a way out �if� we can�t find someone who qualifies?

In Titus 1:5, Paul tells Titus, to ordain elders in every city.

BUT, in Titus 1:6, Paul leaves a way out (?) saying, �If� any �be blameless.�

This is a very large, little, word: �IF.� This �IF� is found many times in scripture.

In Titus 1:7, he explains why he leaves a way out.

For a bishop �must be blameless.�

Paul didn�t say �they� can grow into the qualifications.
To be ordained bishop �they� must �be� blameless.

Titus 1:6 If any be blameless…
Titus 1:7 For a bishop �must be� blameless…

Who do you know who is �blameless,�without fault?

Only God, and sometimes me, know the hidden motives of my heart.

Only God, and sometimes me, know �the idols� of my heart. Ezek 14:3-7

In my experience…

�Titles� become idols.

Pastor/Elder/Bishop/Leader - All become �idols of the heart.�

Doesn�t God then talk to us, and direct us,
according to those �idols� of the heart? Ezek 14:3-7

Does anyone you know qualify as �blameless?� Do you qualify as �blameless?�

Jesus… He get�s the preeminence in all things…