Hillary: I’ve “felt the presence of the Holy Spirit”…but not Sure Jesu
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Mon, March 10, 2008
- Viewed 226
- (100) comments so far
Hillary said, “I believe in the father, son, and Holy Spirit, and I have felt the presence of the Holy Spirit on many occasions in my years on this earth.”
Luo then asked, “Can I ask you theologically, do you believe that the resurrection of Jesus actually happened, that it actually historically did happen?”
Clinton replied, “Yes, I do.”
Luo: And, do you believe on the salvation issue – and this is controversial too – that belief in Christ is needed for going to heaven?
Clinton: That one I’m a little more open to. I think that it is, as we understand our relationship to God as Christians, it is how we see our way forward, and it is the way. But, ever since I was a little girl, I’ve asked every Sunday school teacher I’ve ever had, I asked every theologian I’ve ever talked with, whether that meant that there was no salvation, there was no heaven for people who did not accept Christ. And, you’re well aware that there are a lot of answers to that. There are people who are totally rooted in the fact that, no, that’s why there are missionaries, that’s why you have to try to convert. And, then there are a lot of other people who are deeply faithful and deeply Christ-centered who say, that’s how we understand it and who are we to read God’s mind about such a weighty decision as that.
Luo: And your attitude toward the Bible about how literally people should take it. ...
Clinton: I think the whole Bible is real. The whole Bible gives you a glimpse of God and God’s desire for a personal relationship, but we can’t possibly understand every way God is communicating with us. I’ve always felt that people who try to shoehorn in their cultural and social understandings of the time into the Bible might be actually missing the larger point that we’re supposed to take from the Bible.
Hillary on prayer: “I’ve always responded that I was fortunate enough to be raised to understand the power and purpose of prayer...But had I not been, probably one week in the White House would have turned me into one… It’s wonderful to know that the sustaining power of prayer is there for so many of us.”
Clinton said in the November speech one of her favorite passages of the Bible is the book of James’ admonition that “faith without works is dead.”
“But I have concluded that works without faith is just too hard,” she said. “It cannot be sustained over one’s life or the generations. And it’s important for us to recognize how, here in what you are doing, faith and works comes together.”
More here at WorldNetDaily.com...
OK… your thoughts?
Sen. Hillary Clinton has "felt the presence of the Holy Spirit" in her life and believes in the historical resurrection of Jesus Christ, but she is ambivalent about the necessity of belief in Christ for salvation, according to segments of a New York Times interview that either went unused or received little attention at the time of publishing. Christian Broadcasting Network reporter David Brody unearthed the quotes, which came from New York Times reporter Michael Luo's interview with the senator in July....
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Phil DiLernia on Tue, March 18, 2008
Hi Jewish fella:
My mom is/was Jewish (she passed away about 17 years ago.) I would love to talk to you someday about your views of faith and even evangelism.
Leonard:
I’m dissappointed that you’re read of scripture brings you to take the position that you find it pointless to engage non-believers about their theology. How in the world do you juxtapose that against the entirety of scripture?
Jesus addressed the theology of non-believers. Paul addressed the theology of non-believers. Peter addressed the theology of non-believers. And let me add that not only did they engage the gentiles but they also fervently dealt with the theology of the Jewish non-believers.
IN FACT, they were always the harshest, the least gentle, and most direct, with the Jewish non-believers and in that subset they were even harsher on the Jewish religous leaders ... and you think it’s pointless to address wrong theology of the non-believer?
Why can’t you do both ... love them and address them. Or why not try Paul’s command of addressing them (tell them the truth) in love. Or one more, isn’t it a form of love to address people’s wrong thinking concerning Jesus and eternity?
Phil
Phil DiLernia on Tue, March 18, 2008
Actually my comment to Leonard in my last post was actually meant to respond to Peter. Sorry Leonard ... my mistake!!!
Leonard on Tue, March 18, 2008
Ok never mind the scathing (smiley face) and brilliant rebuttal I had planned. It went something like this. huh?
Jacob The Wrestler on Tue, March 18, 2008
“Similarly, imagine a criminal who goes in front of a judge and says, “I may have murdered, but I do lots of good things! I give to the poor, I hold the door open for others, and I always say, ‘Please and thank you.” Would the judge see the man as a good person who made a mistake, or as an evil person trying to make up for their crimes?”
But suppose the criminal said, “It’s OK, judge, none of those crimes matter anyway because I have faith in you and so I’m forgiven. You’ll have to save your wrath for my neighbor who doesn’t have that faith in you.”
That’s one aspect of the universalism discussion that intrigues me.
Perhaps one of worst massacres of American Indians was led by John Chivington, a minister known as the ‘fighting parson’ from his civil war days. At Sand Creek (you can google it) his band brutally murdered about 100 women, children and babies who were trying to surrender.
Now, we can assume per scripture (can’t we?) that this man went to heaven because of his faith and the fact that we’re all sinners. Faith, not works.
On the other hand, these pagan native Americans went to Hell to burn in fire for eternity.
And here’s the interesting part: Rev. Chivington cut them off from any chance of being saved. They couldn’t possibly be converted after they were murdered.
So, on one hand, you’ve got an evil man in heaven, one who even prevented others from getting there, and on the other hand innocent women and children—who, from what we can tell, probably led more virtuous lives than the Rev. —in hell.
Is that the action of a just God? Truly?
That’s why I don’t get the “If God lets anyone into heaven other than Christians, He’d be unjust because that would mean He’s not being consistent with His scripture” idea.
Or the “Christians are inherently better and more moral people” idea. The idea of faith as a get-out-of-jail-free card is directly in conflict with that.
We cannot even grasp the depths of His wisdom. When we seek to limit His glory and grace with our own feeble human understanding and interpretation, we not only do him injustice, we also open ourselves up to not living as Jesus would have us live.
Blessings for the discussion and may all of us, Christian and Jew alike, celebrate the ultimate triumph of Good over evil this Sunday.
CS on Tue, March 18, 2008
Jacob The Wrestler:
I must say that I like your name. Would your finishing move be the F-5 Hip Dislocator? I kid, I kid…
“But suppose the criminal said, “It’s OK, judge, none of those crimes matter anyway because I have faith in you and so I’m forgiven. You’ll have to save your wrath for my neighbor who doesn’t have that faith in you.”
That’s one aspect of the universalism discussion that intrigues me.”
It’s more like this: you’re guilty. There’s nothing you can do, and the judge has you up for a million-dollar fine. You can’t pay, so you’re going to jail. Then, someone walks in out of the blue, says, “Here, judge. Here is the fine. Not only that, but I did the crime, and this man is innocent.”
You would be forever grateful to that man, right? That’s what Jesus did for us. We could not pay the price on our own, nor could we do anything to earn our freedom. Christ died on the cross in our stead.
However, no one is forced to allow this man in the metaphor to pay the fine. Likewise, not everyone will be covered by the sacrifice of Jesus on the day of judgment.
“So, on one hand, you’ve got an evil man in heaven, one who even prevented others from getting there, and on the other hand innocent women and children—who, from what we can tell, probably led more virtuous lives than the Rev. —in hell.
Is that the action of a just God? Truly?”
Were those who were killed sinners? Did they knowingly and willingly violate their consciences where God had already imprinted His moral Law? Remember, the reason why people go to Hell is because they have sinned against God. We have to view things from God’s perspective, and not comparing our morality against our peers on earth. It’s not how you size up to a Hitler or a Bin Laden that matters, but what you have done compared to God’s Law.
As for the man who massacred them, did he repent of his sins? Was he covered by the grace of God? It’s easy for anyone to call themselves a Christian, but the fruit bears witness of this. I see and understand the challenge you have in this particular situation.
—
CS
Katrina on Tue, March 18, 2008
It is sooooo easy to get caught up in believing in “intrinsic good” that we refuse to deal with the truth of God’s Word when it tells us we have nothing good in us unless it is Christ. Wendi…on a human level we all do good and some better than others but even that “good” is a filthy rag in the eyes of a HOLY God. If you examine the best you have ever done you will find a selfish (sinful) motive if you are honest with yourself. Those who do not have Christ are even more selfish in their motives. It is hard to believe but it is the truth of God’s Word. With that, we must tell everyone the truth even when it is not popular and even when they criticize our beliefs. The world wants their ears tickled with a message of an all loving, never judging or condemning god but he doesn’t exist. Our God is Holy, Righteous, Perfect, Pure, Sinless, All Seeing, All Knowing, Just Judge and sits on the throne of mercy. Anything short of that and we become man pleasers instead of God pleasers.
Wendi on Wed, March 19, 2008
Katrina –
The problem with the way you and CS describe the “truth” of man’s depravity is that you seem to be using it as a weapon to somehow force people to their knees in shame. I certainly understand and agree with the “truth” that compared to God, our Goodness is as filthy rags. There are hundreds of truths in scripture, and it is neither appropriate nor effective to bombard every person with all truth at the same time. Read through Jesus’ interactions with sinners (not the Pharisees who didn’t consider themselves sinners). When did he ever speak about them or their good deeds as filthy rags? These were Paul’s words, used to describe himself, written to a Christian audience.
You feel I and others here are “caught up” in the intrinsic goodness of mankind, to the point that we’ve refused to deal with people’s need for Christ. I am concerned that when people give attention only to sin, they become blind to the beautiful image of God that is in all human beings, even those who have not acknowledged Christ.
Sin and fallenness and the human ability to do good are both truths of scripture. These truths are in tension, but are both still true. I don’t believe I become an “ear tickling man pleaser” when I embrace and acknowledge these truths and and live in the tension.
Post #98 Dave. We’re getting close to the prize.
Wendi
Phil DiLernia on Wed, March 19, 2008
Every interaction Jesus ever had was with sinners so I’m not sure what that meant by asking for examples of Jesus’ interaction with sinners.
But let’s look at some non-Pharisical interactions.
See Jesus with the woman at the well. MINUTES into the conversation He tells her the exact truth about her life. I’m not sure He would view it as “bombarding” her.
See Jesus with the Caananite woman; He says “I was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel.” She begs. He says “it’s not right to take the children’s bread and give it to the dogs.” Talke about “bombarding!” http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif She could have said “stop bombarding me” but rather, in humbleness, admits her state and asks for mercy. Jesus rewards her “great faith!”
See Jesus with the rich young man. He seemed to be doing lots of good stuff according to your understanding of good stuff. However, when Jesus asked him to give ALL HIS MONEY to the poor the motivations for his good works came to the surface and he walked away with “his rewards in full” to spend his eternity apart from Jesus in a place the bible calls “Hell” (unless we have repentance at a later date that we’re not told of.)
That’s 3 ... and the list goes on.
Peter Hamm on Wed, March 19, 2008
I’m 100!
I win the prize. I have nothing to add to the conversation, I just want free stuff!
Jacob The Wrestler on Wed, March 19, 2008
The danger with seeing mankind as a totally sinful, depraved creature is that it moves the emphasis of Christianity from loving God and our neighbor to getting forgiveness so we can avoid hell.
I’ve never given 1 minute of thought to getting to heaven or avoiding hell. I walked apart from God, after being wounded at an early age by fundamentalists, until I was 43 years old. I swore I would never enter a church again. (I thought Christians were evil and brainwashed, to be perfectly candid with you. Barna recently released a study that said 85% of youth see Christians as hypocrites, and I was right there with them).
Getting back off my soapbox, when I did find God, it wasn’t to avoid hell or to get to heaven, it was to live a life patterned on the walk of Jesus. To love my God and my neighbor as I do myself. To be charitable and kind. To forgive.
So, to answer Wendi’s original question, yes, I’d live exactly as I do regardless of whether heaven or hell existed.
When we see Jesus as only a get-out-of-Hell-for-free card for us sinners (and no one is arguing that we aren’t all sinners) we run the risk that I’ve alluded to before: that being saved gives us permission to sin even more, since now we can get away with it.
Someone may see accepting Christ as their savior and living a better life, being a light in the darkness to the ‘least of these,’ as one thing. I see them as two different things.
Indeed, if one’s only reason to be a Christian is to escape judgment, is that reason enough, or even a valid reason?
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