How do you measure Sermon Length?
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Mon, January 25, 2010
- Viewed 1744
- (78) comments so far
What do you think of this quote: "Sermon length is not measured in minutes; it is measured in minutes-beyond-interest, in the amount of time the minister continues to preach after he has lost the interest of his hearers."
That's from a book entitled "Why Johnny Can't Preach" (by T. David Gordon). JD Greear shares this quote on his blog recently.
Gordon continues:
Some preaching is so bad that the best we can say about some preachers is that they themselves realize it, and are merciful in the length of their sermons (ouch!). By contrast, I've heard ministers whose sermons I was disappointed to have come to an end. These entire sermons had been so well delivered--so thoughtful, so faithful to the text without being pedantic... so well-organized as to appear seamless, so challenging and nourishing to my soul--that I just didn't want the experience to end."
What do YOU think? How do you measure the length of your sermons?
My 2 cents: Very few preachers have the communication skills to go over 30 minutes. Very few. Unless you're Andy Stanley, is it really necessary to take 50 minutes to bring home your point? (I realize this may open a can of worms, but seriously, most sermons would be 100x better if you wacked them in half. And the thing is... you don't have to cut that much content... just choose it more wisely. Am I wrong?)
Love to hear your comments...
Todd
Comments
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Peter Hamm on Thu, January 28, 2010
El-Hajj,
Thanks so much for your participation here. I appreciate the fairly unique perspective.
However, you state [The only thing that reaches the heart of men/women is the unadulterated Word of Yah.] I’d like to do a “chapter and verse” challenge on that bold statement. I truly believe that it is God, his Holy Spirit, that reaches the hearts of men, and you state that the ONLY thing that can reach them is His “unadulterated” word. I don’t think the Bible supports that strong statement.
El-Hajj Kareem Abdul on Thu, January 28, 2010
Peter,
Yeshua said, �The Spirit of truth proceeds from YHWH and will testify of Me� (Yeshua). Yeshua is the focus of the Ruach haQodesh just as YHWH is the focus of Yeshua ministry when He was on earth. An inanimate force that possesses no intelligence does not have the ability to testify. To testify means the subject has the ability to speak, He is a witness of another. The Ruach haQodesh who explains the things of YHWH to the believer is not pointing to a mere man, but the YHWH/man (Yeshua), He testifies of the truth Yeshua and explains the Word of YHWH to the recipient. It is the Ruach haQodesh that inspired the writers of Scripture to pen down the word for people of all the ages to know Yeshua Khristos. One of the Ruach haQodesh will and purpose for the believer is to lead us in the Word of YHWH.
I’m not a scholar or theologian. I do have a great understanding of the Bible. YHWH’s Word isn’t to be challenged… but believed…
Leonard on Thu, January 28, 2010
Peter and I do not dispute the power of the Word of God. This is not in question. What frustrates me is the need for people to pit fun and entertainment against spiritual input.
I just spoke ate a conference and one of the leaders stood in front of the students and said… It is fun to go play in the snow but we are not here to have fun, we are here to hear from God. His statements is saying unintentionally but clearly… Hearing God is not fun but important.
It makes me cringe… As though hearing from God cannot be fun. I love my daily time in the word… I laugh, I smile, I get spurred to creativity… sometimes I cry, sometimes I am so convicted that I simply sit in silence.
If it is fun, loud, has some lights it must not be from God. If people laugh they certainly cannot think. If people are engaged and entertained, there must be no way it can have value… this is the mentality that comes across from far too many believers.
El-Hajj Kareem Abdul - just the way in which you speak about the word, the words you use, how you present in a different language… Most (think about 99.9%) of the people I work with would not have a clue as to what you are talking about. Forgive me is I am abrupt, but the descriptions you use empower you, not others. I am not suggesting this is in your heart, but it is the effect none the less.
El-Hajj Kareem Abdul on Thu, January 28, 2010
Leonard,
What do you mean by your statement? (The descriptions you use empower you, not others.) Is this how you treat believers/Christians? Because I speak in the language of the Bible you take offense or make fun of me? Wow… I truly thought this was a Christian site…
Leonard on Thu, January 28, 2010
No one is making fun of you, I am saying that no one I know here in my neck of the woods would have any idea what you are saying… The effect of this is that your use of words would give you power over them, not empower them to understand. They set you up as an expert. People here do not speak Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek.
Not taking offense either. Use the words you want, it makes no difference to me. Why are you so defensive?
Rich Schmidt on Thu, January 28, 2010
It might be time for all of us to exercise a little self-control and resist the urge to reply to everything we disagree with. I know that I have to do this from time to time so that others will feel comfortable adding their perspective. My apologies for times I failed at this earlier in these comments.
Todd has given us the chance to chime in here on his blog. Let’s not abuse his hospitality.
Wyeth Duncan on Thu, January 28, 2010
Two questions: Is the sermon central to the worship of a gathering of believers or not? And, does the Holy Spirit have the ability to hold the attention of an audience?
One more question: If the answer to the 2 previous questions is “yes”, should that have any influence upon the length of the sermon?
Leonard on Thu, January 28, 2010
1) is the sermon central… No, it is a piece of the gathering.
2) Yes… But people also have the ability to ignore the Holy Spirit
Peter Hamm on Thu, January 28, 2010
As long as we respect each other, I think this is a great discussion! And I think we’re being respectful.
El Hajj,
It is a Christian site, and I say again that I am really glad to have your unique (very different from mine) perspective here.
My real question was whether the Bible truly said “The only thing that reaches the heart of men/women is the unadulterated Word of Yah.” I don’t believe so, and I don’t really know what you might mean by “the unadulterated Word of Yah” either.
Wyeth Duncan on Thu, January 28, 2010
To my question: �Is the sermon central to the worship of a gathering of believers or not?� Leonard answered, �No, it is a piece of the gathering.�
This is a fundamental difference in our points of view. Although the sermon is but �a piece� of the entire service of worship, I believe it is the central, most significant and important piece. Certainly, preaching is the central activity of the church in the book of Acts (e.g.: 5:42; 6:2, 4; 8:4, 25; 9:28; 10:42, 44; 11:19; 12:24; 13:5; 13:44, 49; 14:7, 25; 15:35; 16:10, 32; 17:11; 18:5, 11; and 19:10, 20). Shouldn�t preaching hold a similarly prominent place in the church today?
To the question: �Does the Holy Spirit have the ability to hold the attention of an audience?� Leonard answered, �Yes� But people also have the ability to ignore the Holy Spirit.�
So, in effect, Leonard, you�re saying the Holy Spirit does not have the ability to hold the attention of an audience, for He can only do so if the audience chooses not to ignore Him. That means He does not have the ability to hold their attention. I have to disagree, because I don�t believe the Scriptures support that assertion. God is all-powerful and sovereign. The Holy Spirit is God. Therefore, it should go without saying that if the Holy Spirit (not us) chooses, He can arrest the attention of even the most disinterested audience member. The Holy Spirit has the power, because He is God; so the key issue is whether or not we trust the power of the Holy Spirit.
I think Leonards answers are representative of many of the commentators here. It appears to me that there are 2 fundamental issues that separate the points of view being expressed: 1) The place of preaching in the life of the church, and 2) Our theology of the Holy Spirit. And, perhaps, there is a third fundamental issue: The sovereignty of God versus the will of man.
Rich Schmidt on Thu, January 28, 2010
By that logic, Wyeth, the Holy Spirit could grab their attention & drive home the gospel message in 15 minutes as easily as he could in an hour or two. Or don’t you believe in the power and sovereignty of God?
That last question was tongue-in-cheek, of course. And here I go, failing to follow my own suggestion from earlier…
Leonard on Thu, January 28, 2010
Wyeth, you are correct that we disagree about the answer to question number 1. Do not assume that I am thinking less of preaching. I think very highly of the word, I just do not hold it as the centerpiece of a service. It is essential,as is worship through song, worship through service (using of gifts) prayer and the fellowship and even the breaking of Bread. Christ is Central. He is the center piece. He is the head of the body.
As for the power of the Holy Spirit. It is not the power of the Holy Spirit that I doubt or question. It is His actions to which I refer. If people did not have the power to ignore the Spirit, wouldn’t we give more, all know our gifts and use them, be more active in feeding the poor, be more proactive in tearing down the strongholds of racism and other forms of bigotry. If we did not have the ability to ignore the Holy Spirit, then how do we explain the fact that Christ followers do not love others well, are in debt up to their eyeballs, fail to invest time in the word and do not share Christ with others.
All of this is simply because we have the ability to ignore the Holy Spirit. The sovereignty of God is not the issue here. Of course God is sovereign. This is why his ultimate plans cannot be thwarted by mine or your ignorance, willful disobedience, dull and hard of hearing… lives.
Is the bible central… no Christ is central.
Does God the Holy Spirit have the ability to hold the attention… Yes, but people still have the ability to ignore Him.
His power and sovereignty are not challenged by these answers, rather they are affirmed. God’s built his church with such dysfunctional people. It is beautiful and dazzling.
Leonard on Thu, January 28, 2010
Rich, you are not breaking any rules. I loved your thought and appreciate your heart.
For the record, I do have a very high view of scripture but there is a slice of the church that has turned scripture into an idol.
It is still my contention that we pit entertainment against sound teaching and… well… that aint right.
Wyeth Duncan on Thu, January 28, 2010
Rich: Yes, the Holy Spirit can drive home His point in 15 or less. I’m not advocating lengthy sermons as much as I am advocating that we not set limits on sermon length. If the preacher has a 15-minute message from the Lord, that’s fine. I also think it’s quite acceptable if the preacher has a 50-minute message from the Lord. I just say we shouldn’t limit the message.
Leonard: I am troubled by the dichotomy you make between Christ and the Bible. If Scripture is the “word of God”, and does not merely contain the words of God, then there is no way possible to make Christ central without also making the word of God central.
In other words, if God has given us a written revelation of His will, then that revelation carries His authority. Christ Jesus is not physically present in the church, of course, but we have His word (for Christ is God). His word—Scripture—carries His authority. Therefore, it deserves the central place in the church’s worship.
Now, assuming the preacher is God-called man, as affirmed by the local church, and that he is “rightly handling the word of truth” (2 Tim 2:15) when he preaches—when he stands to preach the word of God, the preacher speaks for God. He has a message from the Lord (because it is from God’s word), and it deserves our attention.
I hope you can understand why I would be of the opinion that the preaching of the word of God ought to be central in the life of the church. I hope you can also see why my view should not be confused with making an idol out of the Bible. I’m not talking about worshipping a book—we worship God—but I am talking about the central place that God’s word should occupy in the church.
Wyeth Duncan on Thu, January 28, 2010
One more thing: As far as our ability to ignore the Holy Spirit…sure, we have the ability to ignore the Holy Spirit, like we have the ability to sin. But, I’m not talking about our ignoring the Holy Spirit, I’m talking about the Spirit’s ability to make you listen to Him. This is not about the preacher and His ability to communicate, inspire, entertain, enthrall, or whatever. I’m talking about the Spirit’s ability, through the word preached, to gain a hearing for Himself, to “convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment” (John 16:8). Examples abound in the history of the church of the Holy Spirit’s power to gain a hearing and hold the attention of an audience for His message, delivered through a God-called, Holy Spirit-anointed preacher (I recommend reading the biographies of great preachers of the past).
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