John MacArthur on Vulgarity and “Grunge Christianity”
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Thu, March 01, 2007
- Viewed 381
- (94) comments so far
Johnny Mac talks mostly about Mark Driscoll in his article (that you can read in its fullness here)…
I love it when he says “Some of the things Driscoll talks freely and frequently about involve words and subject matter I would prefer not even to mention in public, so I am not going to quote or describe the objectionable parts.”
He then goes on to link to two people who DO quote Driscoll’s, “vulgar flippancy”.
Maybe the title of this post shoulda been “John MacArthur Endorses People Who Link to Vulgar Preachers”.
I’m not saying that John doesn’t make some good points. And I’m not sticking up for ‘cussing preachers’… but…
MacArthur continues: “When Paul spoke to that culture, he didn’t adopt Greek scatology to show off how hip he could be. He simply declared the truth of God’s Word to them in plain language. And not all of his pagan listeners were happy with that (v. 18). That’s to be expected. Jesus said, “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you” (John 15:18-19).”
So, which is it? Did Paul speak the words of the Greek culture (without swearing, of course) or did he use language that didn’t fit the culture and play it safe?
Just a question… I’m assuming here that ‘grunge’ people need Jesus. (I hope I’m correct). Who will better reach them? Mark Driscoll or John MacArthur?
Let’s take it a step further… who IS currently reaching them? Driscoll or MacArthur?
And about the “world hating you” part… I wonder if John has put himself in Mark’s shoes? Driscoll’s had a lot of ‘hate’ showered his way lately by both the Christian and non-Christian community in Seattle.
All I’m saying is… John, man… don’t make me choose. Why does it have to be an either/or? You work at the work God has given you; and let Mark reach the people God hasn’t gifted you in reaching. And if a word slips out here or there, and yet a few more people make it into the Kingdom, I can accept that.
After all, those [expletive deleted] people need Jesus too!
Just my 2 cents…
Todd
I'm nothing if not an instigator. Here's a quote from John MacArthur for you to chew on... "I frankly wonder how any Christian who takes the Bible at face value could ever think that in order to be “culturally relevant” Christians should participate in society’s growing infatuation with vulgarity. Didn’t vulgarity and culture used to be considered polar opposites?"...
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Stewart on Fri, March 02, 2007
I’d like to comment on Mac’s thoughts but it would require profanity. http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif Mark has a way with words that is sometimes insensitive. But I’ve never heard him utter something unutterable. His sharpe tongue is usually not about the words he uses at all, but rather about what he has to say. John’s way off base. And worse, it’s attitudes like that which have turned entire generations (mine (X) included) away from church.
I like what Rob Bell has to say on this…
if a guy comes into your office, he’s shacking up with his girlfriend; he’s cheating on her with her best friend’s brother; he’s just robbed a bank; he’s considering suicide; and he lights up a cigarette… only and idiot says, ‘we’ve got to get you to stop smoking’.
Shane Vander Hart on Fri, March 02, 2007
It is dissapointing when Christian leaders, such as John MacArthur, spend so much time attacking a fellow brother in Christ.
Dan Moore on Fri, March 02, 2007
I believe the Apostle Paul can shed some light on this: “Some, to be sure, preach Christ out of envy and strive, but others out of good will. These do so out of love, knowing that i am appointed for the defense of the gospel; the others proclaim Christ out of rivalry, not sincerely, seeking to cause me trouble in my imprisonment. What does it matter? Just that in every way, whether out of false motives or true, Christ is proclaimed. And int this I rejoice” (Phil 1:15-18, HCSB). I have read items from both. I don’t agree fully with either. I just chew the meat and spit out the bones. They are both human, both called, both in unique ministries, and both struggle in the Gospel ministry. John MacArthur does make some points that we should heed in that as Christians and leaders we should live exemplary lives. We do not need to use vulgarity to reach people nor should we become so sinful that we are no different from the world. Mark D. reveals the struggle we have to engage a culture. And we should engage the culture, without compromising our message and our manner, in a way that shows God’s love and reaches out.
mlouie on Fri, March 02, 2007
There’s so much to say!!! I’m a new believer. By God’s grace, His word showed how I am a sinner and have nothing to offer Him. I was saved through faith in Christ’s work on the cross. He died for my sins, the perfect Son of God the Father!!! I LOVE GOD BECAUSE HE LOVED ME FIRST!
CAN WE TAKE THIS back to scripture please??!!! GOD has left us HIS WORD for all situations! ALL!!! I first have to admit that I am somewhat ghetto, but I will try not to be bias. by God’s grace, MY LOVE FOR HIM bids me to obey in what HE SAYS… Do you have that love FOR GOD and FROM GOD??? IF you do, you will find that you are a temple of the Holy Spirit, who teaches you God’s word. His word says to LET NOT any unclean thing proceed from our mouths. I AM guilty of that. In my pride, I was motivated in saying things in a shocking manner, for the sake of shocking people as I deliver the gospel to them. It was in my ignorance of the Word of God, for TITUS 2:7-8 says: in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, DIGNIFIED, sound in speech which is beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us.
You know this issue is bigger than this one article. It is bigger than a few controversial sermons. If you want to know more, find the video called “Does the Truth matter anymore” on http://www.crosstv.com (I think it’s here). It talks about how Great Britain’s evangelical churches already went through what we are going through right now in our age, here in America. The Godly servant preacher Charles Haddon Spurgeon preached against worldly thinking polluting faithful biblical preaching. So Man-Centered Ideas polluted God-Centered Biblical preaching in Spurgeon’s time. It was Satan’s attack on the church then… through the ages, it obliterated Britain’s churches. Now, Britain has dumped any true preaching of the Pure Word of God… entertaining church goers is the new trend, to a point that Scripture teaching is twisted so that it fits our culture, imagine it to fit the culture of Soddom and Gommorah!!!! (for our case, it is dangerously subtle!!!!) Biblical Truths are left out because they are hard for worldly ears to hear. Now most of the churches in Britain are DEAD, EMPTY, for ENTERTAINMENT was their goal, so Worldly-Entertaining-Preaching GOT OLD!!!! and people ABANDONED going to church… BE WARNED, GOD’S WORD IS ETERNAL, IT NEVER GETS OLD!!!!! BE WARNED true children of God! Pray for the worldly pastors to turn away from that so that they preach it according to Titus 2:7-8… ALSO according to 2Timothy4:1-3 “I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom; preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction;For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
I pray Lord that to those who read these verses for the first time will turn their hearts towards you, in a search for knowing YOU as most important above squabbles in defense of worldly polluted preaching. Father I pray that YOUR TRUE CHILDREN will be convicted by Your Word through the work of the Holy Spirit! Let THOSE who have Hardened Hearts towards Your FAITHFUL preachers, be turned away from that hardness… Lord I pray that you make them hunger for your Word, to teach them discernment so that they are able to think clearly above emotional feelings that can cloud their vision. I pray this Father in the name of your Son, the great Christ, my Lord and Savior Jesus! Amen!
This rebuke is in love for the true church… is in love for God’s Will… is in living for God’s Glory. Father show my heart any unfaithfulness of thought in my writing above. I also pray that in your strength alone and in the wisdom of your Word alone - my heart… my mind… your church, your true children who read this receive the blessing of discernment from you through the work of the Holy Spirit. I pray this in the name of my great Savior Jesus Christ. Amen!
Let us do all things in Christ, Let us praise His name above all things, Let us live for the Glory of God!
mlouie
unworthily redeemed sinner in Christ, by grace through faith alone in the Son!
Randy Ehle on Fri, March 02, 2007
I particularly appreciate mlouie’s gracious and loving words of rebuke - words that come from and point us to scripture as our guide. The timing of this is interesting for me, because my Greek class has recently translated a passage in Matthew 15, where Jesus confronts the Pharisees, who were concerned because Jesus’ disciples weren’t washing their hands before they ate. Jesus turns that around and says that it’s what comes out of the mouth that makes one unclean. What grabs me about that - and is relevant to this discussion - is that the word Jesus used in Matt 15:17 comes closest to meaning toilet or latrine…yet most English translations have cleaned that up (“Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body?”). Simiilarly, Paul says in Philippians 3 that he considers everything else as “nothing” or “a loss”; here, the KJV probably comes closest to the idea of the original, translating it as “dung.”
My point in these is that “street language” seems to have been used by Jesus, Paul, and probably others in the 1st century - without violating principles of decency, dignity, etc. What is hard to know is how Jesus would speak today if he were in Seattle or Los Angeles or Denver or Midland or Providence. (I wonder if he’d sound more like John MacArthur or Douglas MacArthur?!? Mark Driscoll or Marky Mark?)
Scripture is clear that our words must appropriately represent a holy God. Scripture is also clear that we have freedom to be led by our conscience (which, I trust, is guided by the Holy Spirit).
Jan on Sat, March 03, 2007
MaCarther just wearies me.
I’m not a great fan of Driscoll , but I wish Mc would just get on with the business of ministry and let others be. Why does he think we need a great refuter to take on these supposed issues?
Dan Moore on Sat, March 03, 2007
I took the time to read MacArthur’s article. He is right on. I suspect that if he did not mention Driscoll he would be raked over the coals for not being specific. Ministers do have a responsibility for whom they represent. Was the Apostle Paul meddling when he told Timothy to “have nothing to do with irreverent and silly myths, rather train yourself in godliness” (1 Tim. 4:6, HCSB)? When I was younger, I considered that being culturally relevant might open doors to the Gospel but now that I am older I have found that when I act and talk like a preacher should - people are very open no matter where they are in life. I don’t have to speak the “language of the street” to show that I care. I don’t believe Jesus Christ ever needed to stoop down to vulgarity. He probably just looked the person in the eye, held their hands, and said, “I love you” in word and deed.
fishon on Sat, March 03, 2007
Let me simplify what I have been reading from most of you.
That nasty, old John McAuthur, he is such a basher of dear old Mark D.
Just who does he think he is? Who made him part of the Christian police?
That “self-rightous” thug. He is attacking one of our own. Where does he get the right?
YOU KNOW WHERE HE GOT THE RIGHT? From the same place some of you got
your right to bash him with words like:
#1. JM…has prostituded the platform God has given him.”
#2. JM is making “...personal attacks….”
#3. McAuthur…incites divisive behavior….”
“OH, BUT MY BASHING IS DIFFERENT, FISHON. YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND. WE ARE JUST PROTECTING MARK AND POINTING OUT JM’S SIN. YOU SEE, FISHON, JM HAS A PUBLIC FORUM IN WHICH HE ATTACKS, GOOD OLD MARK. WE ARE JUST COMING TO THE AID OF MARK.”
WRONG! You are doing the same as you claim JM to be doing. Seems like I read once about “taking the log our of your own eye.”
McAuthur bashes Mark, you bash McAuthur. Yep, sounds a lot like Jesus.
fishon
Jan on Sat, March 03, 2007
I don’t know, if you put yourself out there in the public, in print and on tape over and over and over, then you put yourself in the place of being critiqued.
I’ve heard him in tapes and on print criticize Christian leaders right and left.
So, to then turn on those who disagree with him, is a little bit over the top.
Wendi on Sat, March 03, 2007
Fishon and Dan – I think you are missing some significant differences between Mac and Mark, and between their actions about which we are commenting and our actions in commenting about them.
First Dan – I don’t think your comparison with Paul’s admonishment to Timothy works. First, Paul didn’t say “don’t be like so-and-so who is irreverent and full of silly myths.” He cautioned Timothy and then trusted him to evaluate people and their influence in his life and ministry. In fact, I can’t think of a place in the NT where the writer blasts a particular Christ follower.
You see Dan, our problem (at least mine) isn’t with Mac’s admonishment to be careful how we talk, it is with his insistence in picking out a brother to use as an example of how “not” to be. I can see no reason, nor any biblical justification for using his influence in this manner.
And Fishon – I’m certainly not coming to the aid of poor Mark Driscoll. I have my beefs with him too, and have expressed it here (where BTW, we’ve been invited to express our opinions about the things Todd posts). We are not even close to doing the same thing here as Mac has done in this article and in hundreds of other things he’s written and spoken publicly.
Mac’s primary audience is made up of every-day Christians who read his books and articles and listen to him on his radio show. Through this platform, instead of helping them learn how to make decisions about influencers, he tells them who they should and should not read and listen to. Then, he LITERALLY asks . . . no implores them to examine their own pastor.
• Does he ever quote someone like RW, BH, Schuller, or any of the many people he’s decided are bad (and you are in big trouble if your pastor has anything to do with PDL),
• Does he ever use the word “seeker”
• Does he “disrespect” the pulpit (and the Lord) by dressing casual while preaching (like wearing a Hawaiian shirt)
• Does he ever . . . .
And with every thing he warns people about, he names people out there who are doing their ministry is this heinous manner. He warns, “watch out that your pastor doesn’t turn into one of THEM.”
Fishion, in regard to the division he creates in local churches, I know about what I speak. In a previous church, after our pastor’s departure (moral failure) created a leadership void, a very zealous group of MacArthurites used this window of opportunity to save the church from those on staff who were taking us down the slippery seeker slope. MacArthur quotes were more prevalent on the e-mails flying around the church than were bible quotes. CD’s of MacArthur messages were everywhere. Every statement we “seeker staff members” said was twisted, taken out of context while being sent around for public consumption and evaluation. “Did you notice pastor so-and-so quoted what’s-his-name, and here is what John MacArthur says about that guy.” I was afraid to say or write anything.
And sadly they succeed (though it was a bit more complicated, but not much more). Four of us lost our jobs. I was the newest, but one was a 23 year veteran who had, in their opinion, turned into a “seeker pastor.”
Mac is causing terrible trouble in local churches. It is right for us to warn people about his divisive behavior, for the sake of our churches. Driscoll’s behavior, no matter how vulgar and inappropriate it might be, does not have the power to divide local congregations and turn people against their own leaders. Mac’s behavior and use of his influence does. Which is why I stand by my statement that it is a prostitution of his God-given platform.
Wendi
fishon on Sat, March 03, 2007
Wendi,
Very nice thought out post. You will have to forgive my inability to write as articulately as you, but I will try and answer you, anyway.
So wrote: “Driscoll’s behavior, no matter how vulgar and inappropriate it might be, does not have the power to divide local congregations and turn people against their own leaders.”
Wendi, I disagree, and I disagree as a pastor who is in the beginning stages of having to battle, in the church I pastor, against the teachings of Driscoll, McClaren, Bell and others of the Emerging church movement. What these men are writing in books, teaching in seminars, and in magizine articles is reaching into little rural churches like the one I pastor out in the middle of wheat fields. Driscoll has a far enough reaching audience to influence John and have him try and convince others to get me to change. Driscoll and he like do have the power to “divide local congregations and turn people agains their own leaders. You may not see that or admit it, but I am living it. You can deny it, but that do not make it any less true.
Your also wrote: “Mac is causing terrible trouble in local churches. It is right for us to warn people about his divisive behavior, for the sake of our churches. “
Listen, Wendi, I don’t know much about MacAuthur, but I know that I agree with his stance for the same reasons as your above statement. I believe that the likes of Driscoll are, maybe not as directly as JM, cause trouble for local churches as their influence grows.
Just me 3 cents worth.
fishon
Wendi on Sat, March 03, 2007
Fishon –
I wouldn’t argue with you about conflict which might come about in your church as people read and listen to various Christian writers and speakers. However, you are speaking about teachings, and the guys you name (Driscoll, McLaren, Bell) are on very different theological pages. Driscoll is indeed very intentional about relevance, but couldn’t be more theologically conservative – with quite different views from the other two.
But there remains a big difference between these guys and MacArthur (and the other evangelical watchdogs). The guys you mention and others who might fit the “seeker” or “emergent” label simply teach and write what they believe. They don’t go after anyone personally. On the other hand, MacArthur, his “groupies” and other watch dogs publicly disparage people by name. I cannot imagine how a mature Christ follower could justify such behavior biblically.
Isn’t it interesting that the NT isn’t full of warnings about not following this person or that person? False teaching and incorrect understanding certainly abounded. Doctrine was passed from Jesus to the disciples to the church, mostly orally, across thousands of miles, probably taking months and years to communicate. And the written communications that eventually became the scripture was passed among the churches with great difficulty. If the church and orthodoxy could survive the 400 or so years before the bible was canonized without lists of who is right and who is wrong, surely we can do the same today.
Years ago I used to listen to Chuck Colson’s radio show, as it came on during my regular drive time. One day on air he berated another nationally known Christian leader for a decision he’d made (BTW – it was something I agreed with Colson about). I was soooo disappointed, and lost much respect for Colson. Made a mental note not to listen to him anymore, but the next day the show came on before I could turn the channel. Colson’s first words of the day were to beg forgiveness from his listeners, having already called to beg forgiveness from the person he’d berated the day before. That was the right thing to do, and he regained my respect. I might regain respect for Mac if he did the same . . . but I’m not going to hold my breath.
Wendi
fishon on Sat, March 03, 2007
Wendi,
I will agree, the watchdog[s] can go to far. However, if i remember the writings of ‘Eusebius Pamphilus,’ in his Ecclesiastical History, he and others of the early saints were not shy in pointing out, by name, those they saw as hurting the cause of Christ.
I will admit, I am not in tune with what is going on to say too much. I do believe in naming names at times, but I probably involved myself to quickly in this debate. Sorry.
fishon
Wendi on Sat, March 03, 2007
Fusion –
I appreciate your consideration of another perspective. Of course there are times when naming names is appropriate and necessary. But my opinion is that Mac and many other American Christian watchdogs have crossed WAAAAAY over the line here, and it’s damaging the church.
Plus, as I stated (or eluded to) earlier, every ounce of energy one spends worrying about whether another Christian leader is doing things the right way, is an ounce that isn’t spent helping lost people find their way into the kingdom. I think the latter is much more important.
Blessings on your church and ministry Fusion - Wendi
mlouie on Sat, March 03, 2007
You are kind Randy, thank you also for your reference to scripture. It is enlightening when scripture is used for explanations. Using scripture also makes for better discussions and gives trained ‘theologians’ (and newbies like me) a chance to either confirm the verse(s) or to refute the usage if the verse was used incorrectly.
I recently heard a sermon titled “a warning to this church”. In my opinion, it was solidly done through faithful exposition of the seven letters to admonish/rebuke the 7 churches in asia minor (revelation first few chapters). We should focus on these verses because God has left us with the perfect examples of why Jesus Himself rebukes His churches in revelation. Each church has particular problems that God reveals to us - to stand in eternity as an example for us to NOT do! In addition to those chapters in revelation are Paul’s epistles regarding the specific troubles that those churches were going through. Scripture rebukes people by name, so J.Mac follows that faithfully. Paul preaches AGAINST ignoring sin within the body of believers, so J.Mac follows that faithfully. Why do we refrain from ‘cussing’ all day long - because we are convicted if or when we do ‘cuss’. M.Driscoll could well be causing those in his flock to stumble. Remember the 2 previously quoted verses (titus2:7-8 and 2tim4:1-3). I want to add that J.Mac is accountable to his elders at his church - and after his service of about 40 years, the original founding elders are still there, no one left, no torn relationships. This is a testament to the Godly leadership there at the church. J.Mac lives by the example set by the apostle Paul. Scripture and Godliness is what guides J.Mac’s actions and methods. He is faithful to God and His word… for wolves will go after the flock from within the church, not from the outside (that only causes persecution which purifies the church)… so being a watchdog is what is commanded by Scripture. The Lord has blessed His ministry, the ethnicity of the flock God provided J.Mac is culturally diverse. If you guys are faithful to Scripture, you will see J.Mac’s faithfulness. The saints at J.Mac’s church are well fed, by God’s grace they stand behind J.Mac because they live, eat and breathe the meat of Scripture by the Holy Spirit. They do not let frustrated emotions guide their arguments. Yes no church is perfect, but by God’s grace, J.Mac’s congregation understands his stance - J.Mac loves the Holy Triune God, and his love in the truth is what guides his actions, by the grace of God. I highly recommend “does the truth matter anymore” by crosstv (i checked: its available at http://www.crosstv.com). Many of you may or may not know this, but the beloved C.H. Spurgeon fought the deadly attack on his church from WITHIN. As pastors accepted human philosophical poison married to biblical truth - they eventually turned on Spurgeon and took the churches of Britain into the deadness that it is in now. Spurgeon was removed from the very congregation he preached to… only to die an outcast, though with much reward from our Heavenly Father for the faithfulness he exhibited. I recommend ordering “a warning to this church” (cheaper than the cross tv video i mentioned above called “does the truth matter anymore”-w/spurgeon story) from the “grace to you website”… by God’s grace it will teach you about why this is a watchdog issue. Let us not go by ‘discussing by the world’s standards’… let us do it by example set by Scripture! To God be the glory!
mlouie
by His grace, striving to be a faithful servant
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