MondayMorningInsight - Leadership & Encouragement for Church Leaders

Lawsuit: Please stop Praying the God would Plunder My Fields and Kill Me

Posted by: Todd
Posted on: Tue, October 06, 2009
Viewed 187
(15) comments so far

Lawsuit: Please stop Praying the God would Plunder My Fields and Kill Me

A former military lawyer who served in the Reagan White House and worked for Ross Perot is suing a Dallas-based religious organization in a case that could test the limits of free speech and prayer. Mikey Weinstein, founder of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, said he wants Gordon Klingenschmitt, a former U.S. Navy chaplain, to “stop asking Jesus to plunder my fields … seize my assets, kill me and my family then wipe away our descendants for 10 generations.”

Weinstein, 54, said his family has received death threats, had a swastika emblazoned on their home in New Mexico, animal carcasses left on their doorstep and feces thrown at the house.

Weinstein, who is Jewish, said the harassment started several years ago when he began protesting Christian proselytizing at his alma mater, the Air Force Academy. Weinstein started his foundation shortly after that to battle the influence of extremist evangelical Christians in the armed forces.

Klingenschmitt, 41, said in a phone interview that he has “never incited anybody” to hurt Weinstein.

(Except God, that is).

Comments

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Peter Hamm on Tue, October 06, 2009

Such prayers as he has seemingly prayed have no business being spoken by the one who said not only to love one another, but to love your enemies.
Andy on Tue, October 06, 2009

Seems like the prayers are the least of his worries . . .

I’d be asking the courts for a little help figuring out who was leaving animal carcasses and throwing feces. You know . . . Just a thought.
rbud on Tue, October 06, 2009

Many strange things happen in the name Christianity. While you’re thinking about Klingenschmitt, consider the uneducated pastor in Arizona who regularly prayers for Obama’s death and encourages his members to bring firearms to worship. Consider Pat Robertson who said that the CIA should take out Chavez, and that the Florida wildfires were God’s punishment for California-based Disney World allowing gays into the park. Or, Jerry Falwell who said that the US should take on a massive campaign to wipe out Muslim enemies. The list goes on.

Then consider the Islamic Jihadists who are waging war against all non-Muslim people, with a special bent toward Christians and Jews.

I’m finding it difficult to detect any differences among them. Evil is evil, wrap it in whatever sheep’s clothing that floats your boat.
CS on Tue, October 06, 2009

There’s a bigger question behind this: at what point should our prayers and petitions to God start getting imprecatory? At what point should we be like David and say, “Lord, please help lead the wicked to repentance and faith, and if they won’t, please take them out of the way to stop doing harm?”

—
CS
Peter Hamm on Tue, October 06, 2009

CS,

Good one.

Imho, never. Jesus prayed for those who were crucifying him, for goodness sake!
Brandon on Tue, October 06, 2009

What a strange prayer. If your descendants are wiped out for one generation doesn’t that take care of all of them? I imagine people are being incited to throw carcasses and feces because they don’t know how to plunder a field? Either way, I hope it stops.
Rick Williams on Tue, October 06, 2009

“Bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you…” Luke 6:28
rbud on Thu, October 08, 2009

CS, “imprecatory”? This is a blog, not a doctoral thesis. Let’s keep in the verncular.

BTW, I don’t know that we should be like David. That was old covenant stuff. In Christ we have a new covenant.

Peter, thanks for that reminder.
CS on Fri, October 09, 2009

rbud:

*Slight tirade warning*

Three things. First, the word, “imprecatory,” is much easier to type than, “praying to God that He would enact destruction and/or vengeance on someone.” Second, since this is a forum where pastors and other people of faith come, so they should have reasonable understanding of Christian theological and doctrinal vocabulary. And third, I grow weary of the current bent towards throwing away any, “religious,” word that is present in Christendom. For example, words like, “repentance,” “propitiation,” and, “born again,” are getting discarded left and right in churches nowadays. Those words have meaning and were used in the Bible for a purpose, and even our meta-language like, “imprecatory,” “justification,” and, “Trinity,” is good to use.

*Tirade concluded*

There. Now we can get back to evaluating whether or not praying against someone or something is a bad thing.

—
CS
Peter Hamm on Sat, October 10, 2009

CS,

You write [ First, the word, �imprecatory,� is much easier to type than, �praying to God that He would enact destruction and/or vengeance on someone.� Second, since this is a forum where pastors and other people of faith come, so they should have reasonable understanding of Christian theological and doctrinal vocabulary. ] Yeah, I agree with these two points.

But I do think that some of the theological terms that get thrown around in textbooks and seminary classes (I’m thinking of propitiation here) are totally unnecessary in the teaching/preaching environment.

Also, I’ve noticed a trend back to “Christian” from “Christ-follower” as a lot of people (even some “emergent” leaders) seem to be more interested in redeeming that excellent term than substituting the new one…
Brian L. on Sat, October 10, 2009

CS,

Just another note:

First, once again I appreciate your zeal in wanting people to conform to Scripture and Scriptural principles above all else. We disagree on the application of that sometimes, but that’s okay.

Second, the words you cite aren’t biblical words - they’re ENGLISH words, contained in an ENGLISH Bible.

The CONCEPTS are, indeed, biblical. Therefore, understanding the concept is much more important than knowing the English term for it.

Wouldn’t you agree that it is much better to be sanctified (set apart in holiness for God) than to be able to vocalize a theological definition for sanctification?

I know many feel that to not use these terms means we’re “dumbing down” the church. I disagree wholeheartely. If using different terms helps them better understand the concept and apply it to their lives, and therefore bringing them closer to Christlikeness, then I’m all for it.

Thanks for making me think, CS. I really do appreciate you.
Brian L. on Sat, October 10, 2009

And I would agree that it’s better to pray FOR your enemies rather than against them.
rbud on Mon, October 12, 2009

CS, lighten up a little. No need to be so touchy, or verbose.

(BTW, I don’t find imprecatory anywhere in my translations. Please don’t hide an egg in my name.)
CS on Mon, October 12, 2009

Peter, Brian, rbud, et al.:

Thank you as always for your kind words and candor. I appreciate the interactions I have with you on this board.

Peter:

“But I do think that some of the theological terms that get thrown around in textbooks and seminary classes (I’m thinking of propitiation here) are totally unnecessary in the teaching/preaching environment.”

The specific words may be unnecessary, but the concepts are key. Much like Brian said…

Brian:

“Wouldn’t you agree that it is much better to be sanctified (set apart in holiness for God) than to be able to vocalize a theological definition for sanctification?”

Absolutely. But we can get into a chicken-egg situation with talking about the use of words. After all, how would we let people know what sanctification is to see if they match it unless we describe it theologically?

And, yes, I agree that we can describe it without, “dumbing down,” anything, but in those instances where I’ve seen big words eschewed on purpose, many times it’s done in mockery or because the very concepts are being twisted at the same time.

rbud:

“CS, lighten up a little. No need to be so touchy, or verbose.

(BTW, I don’t find imprecatory anywhere in my translations. Please don’t hide an egg in my name.)”

Sorry, sometimes it’s hard to tell the tone of the postings around here.

And you’re right, “imprecatory,” is not in the Bible (nor did I say it was). It is part of the lexicon of Christian theology and doctrine, and I would lump it in with words like, “sanctification,” or, “hypostatic union.”

—
CS
Peter Hamm on Mon, October 12, 2009

CS,

DON’T lighten up… I like you the way you are!

And your original first point that we shouldn’t be afraid to use a word like “imprecatory” on this forum is still spot on…

Thanks again, you always make me think about stuff!