Organ replaced with Guitars… Oh My!!!
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Tue, November 29, 2005
- Viewed 136
- (77) comments so far
If we can't agree on everything; then we agree on nothing.
Everything was very judgmental and legalistic toward the end of the church I grew up in (yes, they were killed off by legalism while I was off in college). The issues: hair length; card playing; sending kids to public school... you name it; they had a problem with it. If you didn't keep the list; you were 'in sin' and don't even think about hangin' with anybody who broke the rules.
It seems there aren't as many separatists today as there once were (although I think most of them blog!)... but the movement is still alive and well. Here is a great example...
You can find the link to the following here... (David W. Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061, , http://www.wayoflife.org, 866-295-4143):
The October 29 issue of the Chattanooga Times Free Press (Chattanooga, Tennessee) featured a picture of Tennessee Temple University students worshipping to contemporary rock music during a Wednesday evening service. The accompanying article said:
"Beneath the 90-year-old stained glass at St. Andrews Center, rock music blares as worshippers in jeans and T-shirts fill the sanctuary. The weekly Wednesday night church service has all the markings of traditional worship--music, preaching and praying. But the choir and organ have been replaced with drums and an electric guitar. 'Each generation has different styles of music, and what churches have to realize is that we've got to meet those younger generations' needs,' said Dr. Danny Lovett, who preaches at the service and is president of Tennessee Temple University."
Where does the Bible say God's people should use the world's style of music? To the contrary, we are instructed to have spiritual music (Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16), which means music that is set apart unto God from this wicked world. See 1 Jn. 2:15-17; Jam. 4:4; Tit. 2:11-14; Rom. 12:2. While it is a sad thing for older graduates of this school to observe, it is not surprising to see Tennessee Temple and Highland Park Baptist Church take such a dramatic turn to a worldly philosophy. Lovett recently came to Temple from Jerry Falwell's Liberty Baptist University, and it is New Evangelical to the core. Billy Graham, the Prince of New Evangelicalism, has spoken at Liberty and has been praised by Falwell for his 'faithful ministry.' Liberty students are not warned about the heresy of Graham's ecumenical evangelism or of his unscriptural emphasize the positive, judge not philosophy. Liberty has hosted conferences for the radically ecumenical Promise Keepers as well as for Rick Warren. Biblical separation is rapidly fading from the agenda of a large body of former fundamentalist Baptists who are moving in the popular contemporary direction.
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My goodness... take out the organ and put in a guitar (by the way, there were many stringed instruments in the Bible); and suddenly we crossed the line from spiritual to unspiritual; from Godly to ungodly.
But here's the problem... someone is determining what music is spiritual and which music is unspiritual... which music is godly and which is ungodly.
The songs song 20 years ago at Tennessee Temple University (when the school was 'godly') were not written in Bible times. They were new at one time (just like the songs they sing now).
The electronic and/or pipe organ is not a biblical new testament instrument. If anything, guitars are closer to the 'original'. But many churches viewed the organ as 'ungodly' when it was introduced. There are churches still today who don't use any musical instruments. Again, someone has made the choice.
But since The Beatles and other 'rock' musicians use guitars; guitars are worldy. Who made that decision?
I don't hear anyone saying that we shouldn't use pianos in worship because Liberace was gay.
Or that we shouldn't wear ties to church because the worldy business community also wear ties to conduct their secular drugery.
But here's the main thing I noticed when I was a part of a separatist church... the church tended to concentrate on the negative... and once it started on one thing, it lead to a list of other evils (all of which the church had something against). That's what intrigued me about the above quote. All that it took for him to go off was that the organ was replaced by a guitar. This lead to all of the following...
--this all happened because the leader came from Liberty
--Libery is NeoEvangelical
--Billy Graham has spoken at Liberty
--Billy Graham is a heretic (and the Prince of New Evangelicalism, btw)
--Liberty students 'haven't been warned'
--They've worked with Promise Keepers and Rick Warren (it ALWAYS comes back to him, doesn't it?)
--Few are left but us... even the fundamentalists are moving in the 'popular contemporary direction'
How'd he get all that from one newspaper article?
I guess you'd have to have grown up a separatist to understand that one. (And I think I do).
It's sad... but I think I do.
Any thoughts? Any separatists among us? Welcome, from a former separatist! 
Todd
I grew up as a conservative, separatist Baptist. (Yes, I survived.) We didn’t fellowship with any other church in town. Actually, there was only one other church that we acknowledged that existed (and we really didn’t care for them very much). We didn’t even play basketball with other churches. We didn’t ‘smoke, chew, or run with girls who do’. So I feel that I kind of understand the separatist mindset. It goes a little something like this…
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Evangelist Jeff on Wed, November 30, 2005
I have long hair that touches my shoulders, and a beard. I love riding motorcycles, and 4 wheelers. I like wearing blue jeans, pocket tee-shirts, and leather coats. Does this make me a rebel?
pdl on Wed, November 30, 2005
Wait a minute, Todd…what was your answer to #2?
You are saying: ‘Yes RR’s roots are(objectively/historically/currently) in satanism/immorality/rebellion specifically directed against Jesus Christ…but that’s ok because generations past did the same thing—so let’s bring it on into the church?’
ok…
pdl
pdl on Wed, November 30, 2005
Matt—sorry to gore a sacred cow!
My experience with RR in the church world is real and personally observed over twenty years of ministry. RR is from the pit of hell and is used by the Devil to anesthetisize the unsaved against the Message of the Gospel and to suggest to the church that the concept of Biblical separation is nothing but “legalism”.
pdl
Matt on Wed, November 30, 2005
That’s cool if you feel that way pdl. While I’m not sure if there was an attempt at belittling me because of my age and experience in there somewhere, I’ll just choose not to see it. We can just disagree.
pdl on Wed, November 30, 2005
Oh yeah…Matt…one other thing on the style/substance arguement I was trying to make:
Do you seriously believe that style has no communicative function in regard to substance? The advertising world pays trillions of dollars for just the right “style” to let the customer know what is special about their product and what it is all about in the sea of other products. Style/the package/the form and feature has a tremendous bearing on how the public views the product. The RR package wrapped around worship of God lies about what He is really about—false advertising, if you will…
pdl
pdl on Wed, November 30, 2005
Matt…no attempt to belittle…honest…just letting you know that I have “been there and done that” (I even have the t-shirt to prove it!)...these are things to think and pray about…
pdl
Matt on Wed, November 30, 2005
Well, didn’t Jesus associate himself with even the dregs of society just to reach them? I can see some parallels between the arguement you’re making about rock music and Jesus with the woman at the well. Rock is where the people are…so why shouldn’t we pounce on it?
And I specifically said that Stlye is how we communicate substance. Of course we need to let people know how awesome God is…so yeah, we do need to spend money on various forms of advertising. How is it lying about what God is about? People are so jaded now by various stimuli. To sell something, you have to make it “shiny” even if it is shiny by nature…like God is. Seekers need to be shown just how shiny he is.
How does this concept conflict with your ideas of what God is about?
Matt on Wed, November 30, 2005
can anyone tell that pdl and I must be having a slow day at the office? heh.
Evangelist Jeff on Wed, November 30, 2005
pdl, Yo dude, chill brother. Matt wasn’t getting all up in your grill bro… Go to the crib G and relax…
pdl on Wed, November 30, 2005
Jeff said:
[I have long hair that touches my shoulders, and a beard. I love riding motorcycles, and 4 wheelers. I like wearing blue jeans, pocket tee-shirts, and leather coats. Does this make me a rebel?]
Depends what kind of bike you ride…I’m from Milwaukee and if you ride anything but a Harley in these parts YOU ARE not only a rebel, but a heretic…
About the hair and such…anything can be an idol or worn/done to communicate a message that is not in keeping with the message/person/character of Christ. Our standards for such things should be derived directly from the Holy Spirit. In other words, have you taken time to ask Him if it is ok with Him for you to have long hair…ie does it communicate to the world and the family of God the message/person/character of Christ. If the Holy Spirit affirms that it is consistant with Christ and not a stumbling block to others you have liberty to do as He directs.
pdl
pdl on Wed, November 30, 2005
Matt…it is a slow day! I do think that we should “pounce on it”...but not participate IN it! For, example…a few years back (right after Columbine) Marylin Manson came to town…we went down to the auditorium to preach, hand out tracts and witness to the kids waiting in line. Besides havig to duck various food and beverage items/containers we had a productive for the Kingdom of God. Manson actually received one of the tracts that we had written up…after he read it he cancelled his tour (it was reported to us by an inside source that the tract had a big impact on his decision)...I also have gone to RR concert parking lots to share the Gospel with youth and adults drinking and gettiing high before the concert (BTW—you can’t believe how many we professing Christians going to local youth groups etc…) At one event Axle Rose of Guns and Roses ahd been recently interviewd about his views on life…his message was that he had experienced it all and was more empty than ever…you talk about “pounce on it”...we created a tract with his picture and statements on it…we went car to car in the pre-concert party lot…what a great time of witness! My point is—we must not participate in the rebellion, but go into the rebellion with a clear message of Salvation…pounce but don’t participate!
pdl
Todd on Wed, November 30, 2005
pdl,
I believe I answered no to the first four questions you inquired of me.
You see… here’s the problem we have when man draws the line.
You draw the line saying RR is of the devil.
I obviously disagree and draw the line in a different place.
To others, the issue of long hair (brought up by Jeff) is a place to draw the line. After all, all the RRers donned long hair. Long hair, to some, is a sign of disobedience (as are beards and riding motorcycles).
About the hair, you said:
“About the hair and such…anything can be an idol or worn/done to communicate a message that is not in keeping with the message/person/character of Christ.”
See, you don’t draw the line on the hair but you do about the music. My thinking on music is like yours on hair:
“About the music and such…anything can be an idol or played/performed to communicate a message that is not in keeping with the message/person/character of Christ.”
Again, it’s where YOU have drawn the line. My feeling is… that’s fine for you… please live out your beliefs. But don’t try and draw the line for me on non-biblical issues.
Whether it is hair length or music styles; respect other people’s tastes/preferences, even when you don’t necessarily agree.
http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
Todd
Matt on Wed, November 30, 2005
That’s cool man. I thought of that distinction a few minutes after I posted it. But what would you say about Jesus associating himself with lowlifes? Is it not along the same lines as associating ourselves with the music loved by the people we are trying to reach…(and ourselves…?) Just a thought…I really don’t even know if it holds up…just something off the top of my head.
Todd on Wed, November 30, 2005
one more, pdl…
I applaud your efforts… but have you ever been to a sporting event? people act the same there (drinking, swearing, lewdness)… you aren’t saying that sports is of satan are you? Obviously sports brings out the worst in people as well.
Todd
Evangelist Jeff on Wed, November 30, 2005
pdl, yo dude I love you man.. You just made my day. I applaud you and your church for what you did at the concert’s bro… That is the very same thing I do.. About the hair and beard thing it is from the Lord… But I can tell you this brother… I realize now where your coming from. But I can also say this… I may be wrong but so far it has been effective. My daughter was listening to the heavy rap stuff… I did not critize her or preach I slapped it in dude. I started listening to it with her. Next thing I know she now listens to it less. I even found out she was smoking and I asked if we could share one together. She quit that.. you all keep up the good work.
Oh yea, I seen a t.v. program one night about some ladies who worked red light districts. One of them out five had remorse and stated the same thing axel rose did, She was empty… I tried to find out more but couldn’t.. The only the Lord said,“Pray for her Jeff, Just pray for her.”
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