Rick Warren: How We Can Change the World
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Mon, May 12, 2008
- Viewed 84
- (33) comments so far
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I'm running a three-post series today, and I'd love your input. The first is a video by Tim Keller talking about how religion can easily turn into oppression. The second is Rick Warren explaining (as best I've heard him) his plan to change the world through his PEACE plan. The third is an invitation for Ingrid from SliceofLaodicea to join Rick Warren at Saddleback during a PD conference. Take a look at all three and please leave your comments. I'd love to hear what you think of all three! Here's Rick...
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Peter Hamm on Mon, May 12, 2008
I love the whole thing near the end about not really caring what your motivation is. The way Paul felt about the preaching of the Gospel.
Business, Government, and the Church working together… wait a minute… that’s basically everybody. Are our problems so big that only everybody working together can even hope to solve them? And even then only with God’s help? yeah, I think so.
GREAT posts today. Thanks, Todd!
Tye Male on Mon, May 12, 2008
At least Rick is making an attempt to do something. Our motivation is not found within ourselves, but in demonstrating Christ’s love to the nations. How could you not agree with this?
CS on Mon, May 12, 2008
Peter:
“I love the whole thing near the end about not really caring what your motivation is. The way Paul felt about the preaching of the Gospel.”
There’s the catch. Nowhere in the list of the five ills that Warren listed did the solution appear to involve the preaching of the Gospel. I can understand that Warren would like people to play nice, help each other out, and be friendly, but without the Gospel, people will still die in their sins.
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CS
Oliver on Mon, May 12, 2008
But doesn’t motivation really matter? Isn’t the why we do something just as important as the what we do? (no RW bashing!) are you proud of me?
Kevin West on Mon, May 12, 2008
I would agree with many of the comments already posted. We (meaning Christians) know that our motivation is because of Christ, but if yours in different that ok. I liked what RW said when he was listing off other motivations, for example, profit; profit is not a bad motivator. (I would add, it’s not, as long as it’s not exploitive) There are plenty of good people with great intentions whose passions intersect with their careers.
To CS…I also noticed in RW’s reasons for the “faith leg” of the stool there was no mention of the Gospel. (I should probably note here that I am in no way anti-RW). And, I agree with you that while we can do good as currently spelled out in this video, it will always come up short if we don’t share the Gospel.
After all, what we’re really talking about is a world affected by sin. The only thing that can remedy that is Jesus. His love brings about a changed life…which leads to…changed family…which leads to…changed friends…which leads to…changed culture…which leads to…changed government.
Peter Hamm on Mon, May 12, 2008
CS writes [Nowhere in the list of the five ills that Warren listed did the solution appear to involve the preaching of the Gospel.]
I’m sorry, but you can NOT look holistically at RW’s public statements (including his writings) and not see the importance to him of preaching the Gospel of grace and yes, repentance. This video is NOT a complete picture of RW’s theology. By the way, that is the kind of thinking that has led to gross distortion of his theology and position on a great many things.
Oliver writes [But doesn’t motivation really matter?] On one level it does. It matters why I do what I do. But if I give a cup of water to a stranger that saves their very life, I bet you they don’t care why I did it.
CS on Mon, May 12, 2008
Peter:
“I’m sorry, but you can NOT look holistically at RW’s public statements (including his writings) and not see the importance to him of preaching the Gospel of grace and yes, repentance. This video is NOT a complete picture of RW’s theology. By the way, that is the kind of thinking that has led to gross distortion of his theology and position on a great many things.”
I’m going to get totally subjective for a moment, and I am trying to avoid any slams here, so please bear with me.
My church just completed one of Warren’s “40 Day” programs, and as a part of it, we were supposed to reach out and change our community. So, people went out and helped families, cleaned up parts of town, and did random acts of kindness all over the place. Yet nowhere were we told, through his study guide, videos, or through the sermons preached, to follow the type of command as in Mark 16:15 and Romans 10:13-17 and share the Gospel.
As a matter of fact, to the contrary, the book and message conveyed was that the sharing of the Gospel was something that had to be earned, and not something to do from the get-go, flying in the face of the message and demonstrations put forth by the Apostles in the Bible. Consequently, when I decided to help reaching out to people by doing something nice AND preaching the Gospel simultaneously, I got some passive and active put-downs from multiple people in the church. The rest of the groups made for a pretty town and helped people, letting their light shine, but those helped may yet be dead in their sins and a key opportunity was lost.
So, when I see message such as this, where Warren again omits the key point of preaching the Gospel, with repentance, and in light of just having completed one of his “40 Day” courses, I do have to call this legitimately into question.
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CS
Leonard Lee on Mon, May 12, 2008
CS, a part of the PEACE plan is planting new churches. Statistically this is the most effective way to reach people for Christ in literally every place a church can be planted. There is nothing more effective in reaching lost people than new churches. So if you know the peace plan he pushes you would also know this means the gospel.
In Acts 2 there was a sequence that is often overlooked. I think it is descriptive and not a “how to” from the book of Acts but it looks like this.
Good Deeds brings about good will which opens the door for the good news.
Acts 2: 45-47 Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
The sold goods and met everyones needs - good Deeds
The enjoyed the favor of all men - God will
And God added daily - Good news was preached.
CS on Mon, May 12, 2008
Leonard Lee:
“In Acts 2 there was a sequence that is often overlooked. I think it is descriptive and not a “how to” from the book of Acts but it looks like this.”
Absolutely right. Those people sold their goods and God added to their number. Right on.
But what took place beforehand? In the same chapter, Peter was preaching the Gospel to them first. And hearing what he said pricked their hearts, and they wanted to know what they should do to be right with God. Then Peter told them that they needed to repent and be baptized.
In this specific example, the Good News brought about repentance, which brought about good will, which brought about good deeds. Not the other way around, as you cited it.
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CS
Leonard Lee on Mon, May 12, 2008
CS,
I don’t assume the Gospel not being preached, I think we see a continual process. I also believe there to be a gap in time between vs 41 and vs 42. 42-47 is a summary not a sequence of the same day.
Derek on Mon, May 12, 2008
CS,
I wanted to echo Peter’s statement above. You cannot take this video as the complete summation of RW’s theology. One of his five purpose for the church is Mission which he separates out from Ministry (i.e. acts of service). I still cannot figure out why RW-haters dislike his five purposes, it seems biblical to me.
From PDL, pg. 283:
In the Great Commission Jesus said, “Go to the people of all nations and make them my disciples. Baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and teach them to do everything I have told you.” This commission was given to every follower of Jesus, not to pastors and missionaries alone. This is your commission from Jesus, and it is not optional. These words of Jesus are not the Great Suggestion. If you are a part of God’s family, your mission is mandatory. To ignore it would be disobedience.
You cannot ignore RW’s very clear Evangelical stance on evangelism with clear biblical commands like the quote above.
Oh yeah, I forgot, RW quoted Matthew 28 from the CEV above…so I guess you can dismiss the entire statement!
Derek
Peter Hamm on Mon, May 12, 2008
CS writes
[My church just completed one of Warren’s “40 Day” programs, and as a part of it, we were supposed to reach out and change our community. So, people went out and helped families, cleaned up parts of town, and did random acts of kindness all over the place. Yet nowhere were we told, through his study guide, videos, or through the sermons preached, to follow the type of command as in Mark 16:15 and Romans 10:13-17 and share the Gospel. ]
I too have done 40 days. I’m sorry that you missed that cause it was in there.
CS on Mon, May 12, 2008
Peter:
“I too have done 40 days. I’m sorry that you missed that cause it was in there.”
I noticed I contradicted myself a little bit there. Allow me to clarify.
In the “Better Together” book (which I don’t have on me at the moment, so this is from memory), Warren said that we have to, “earn the right” to spread the Gospel. If we do good works, and if the situation warrants it, and if all the stars are in alignment, then you may have a chance to ask someone to come to church where they may hear the Gospel. We develop relationships to facilitate this, and it is only through those relationships that we have the right and the avenues to share the Gospel.
What I find in the Bible is that we go, preach, and share the Gospel. This may lead to conviction of hearts, this may lead to our own injury or death. No long-term relationship required. And we do good works because we are saved, not as a qualifier to share the Gospel, but because we do those things out of our thankfulness to God. Those good works are demonstrations of our faithfulness and authenticate our faith.
So, overall, I see a difference between the study guide’s recommendations and what the Bible says. And when, on Day 4, he presents a “Gospel” message completely devoid of repentance, I have to also question what Gospel is being shared overall.
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CS
Oliver on Mon, May 12, 2008
I come back to the point that our motivation does matter as CS illustrates, I agree with that post. warren has gotten in trouble for going into Syria because he didn’t take into account the geo poltiics, and in africa too. It shows that motivation does matter. Warren claims that he doesn’t care why any other group goes in either. Of course it matters. If communists go into a village to spread propoganda along with their message or christians into muslim countries to proselytze the reason we go in is important. too many people have been burned by christians inviting them to church things and not telling them it is a covert evangelistic effort. I can’t say I know what warren’s motivation is, he doesn’t say in this clip although I have an idea based on his other writings.
Leonard Lee on Mon, May 12, 2008
He does say, his motive it to love his neighbor. Motives matter in many places but I think the point of what he is saying is… He lets do something. If you want to make money and cure disease… I don’t care… what I do care about is tackling the problems we face in this world of ours.
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