Seeker-Sensitive Church “Presuppositions”
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Tue, October 11, 2005
- Viewed 136
- (52) comments so far
Today, pulling from the same website as I did last week... I'd love some discussion from many of you who are leading a 'seeker' church. Are these presuppositions that you as a seeker church really hold? I'm interested to see how many of these are deemed true by people who are actually involved in the 'seeker' movement. Here we go:
Presupposition One: Church Growth is Our Responsibility
The very first unbiblical notion on which this movement is founded is that church growth is our responsibility. This is clearly antithetical to the ministry and message of the Apostles... I recently viewed a video tape of a message preached by one of the leading lights in the seeker-friendly movement urging people to become involved in the great work of evangelism. As he came to the close of his impassioned exhortation, he told of his dying father?s words to him concerning the task of evangelism. His father, in what seems to have been a state of delirium, had continued to repeat the words, "Get just one more for Jesus! Get just one more for Jesus!" As I sat there and listened in utter amazement, I thought, Sir, you are out of your element. You can?t even get one for Jesus, much less one more for Him. Without controversy, it is every believer?s task to spread the good news that there is a Savior who has died for poor, helpless, hell-deserving sinners. We must earnestly seek to persuade the unconverted to turn from the broad road that leads to destruction and enter the strait gate of conversion that alone leads to eternal life. We should diligently implore the great King to turn their hearts to Christ, but having discharged those duties, we must leave the results to Him.
Presupposition Two: God?s Purpose for the Salvation of Sinners Needs a Major Overhaul.If He Doesn?t Get Some Much Needed Marketing Help from Us, Sinners Who Would Have Been
Saved with These New Methods, Will Be Lost.
It would seem any person with even the most superficial understanding of biblical truth about God?s purpose in salvation would immediately reject such a God-dishonoring suggestion. It may be that even those most heavily engaged in this movement would be uncomfortable with such an unvarnished statement of their beliefs. Still, everything they practice indicates this is one of their foundational tenets.The questions for which we should seek biblical answers are whether God?s purpose for the salvation of sinners is in trouble and if He needs human assistance to accomplish His work. Please understand I am not asking whether God uses means to accomplish his purpose and whether he intends to accomplish that purpose apart the use of means. For example, if no one ever proclaims the gospel, will anyone ever be converted? The answer is a resounding, NO! But, there is another question we need to consider. Who is it that sends preachers and kindles a fire in their hearts that cannot be extinguished? Will God ever leave himself without a witness or will he not insure the execution of his purpose by raising up messengers to accomplish it? The question is whether God needs means and methods other than those he has prescribed in Scripture to execute his sovereign purpose?
Presupposition Three:The Unconverted are to be Evangelized in the Church
The third presupposition on which this movement seems to base its practice is that the church is the place to evangelize sinners. In reality, God has given no commandment for sinners to come to church. Instead, he commands the church to go to sinners. The church is an assembly of God?s called out people. There is only one instance in the New Testament Scriptures of an unconverted person being in the assembly of God?s people, and in that case it is spoken of as a happenstance, ". . .and what if one should come in who is unlearned or an unbeliever. . ." ( 1 Cor. 14:23)? Evangelism is to occur in the world outside after the people of God have been instructed and built up through the solid exposition of the Scripture.I am not suggesting it is wrong for the unconverted to attend the meetings of the church. What I am asserting is that if an unconverted person should attend a meeting of God?s people, he or she should do so to observe how Christians worship their God, not to be entertained and made to feel comfortable in their rebellion against God.
Presupposition Four: If We Give People What They Are Looking for in a Church, We Are More Likely to Get Them Converted Than If We Continued To "Do Church" in the Traditional Way.
This is another point that may be lost on those who are committed to a man-centered, "free-will" theology, but it is, nevertheless, biblical truth. The reality is, at the end of the day not one of those whom God had marked out for himself will be found outside the fold. Pay close attention to Paul?s teaching in Romans 8:28-30. He wrote,And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.He informs his readers that those who love God are those who have been called effectually by his grace.
Presupposition Five: Paraphrases of the Scripture that Omit or Mangle the Original Meaning of the Text are as Authoritative as the Scripture Itself as Long as the SpeakerCan Use Them to Support the Point He Wants to Make.
This is one of the presuppositions we must detect from observation, since there is likely no statement of this belief from any leader of this movement or practitioner of this philosophy. Still, this must be one of their beliefs since their writings and lectures are most often composed of a collection of witty sayings and pop-psychology buttressed by an occasional reference to a paraphrase of the Scripture that is often ripped from its context and robbed of its original meaning. We need to understand that a paraphrase is merely someone?s idea of what a text means and should not be trusted as if it were the Word of God. Often the proof the speaker is seeking rests on words or phrases not even occurring in the Hebrew or Greek Texts. In this way, they seek cunningly to camouflage the Scriptures to make them more palatable to their carnal hearers. This practice is very similar to glazing bitter pills with a sugar coating to make them easier to swallow. Additionally, hearers can go away with the illusion that they have done something religious since the preacher has told them this is what the Bible says.
Presupposition Six: Declaring the Whole Counsel of God is Unimportant as Long asThose Who Attend Feel Good When They Leave the Church.
Closely related to presupposition five, is the idea that it is no longer important to declare the whole counsel of God to his people. This, too, is a presupposition detected by observation. People tend to talk about those matters that are important to them, but seeker-friendly pastors tend to be extremely limited in the scope of their teaching. They seem to believe human relationships are more important than a right relationship with God. It seems the idea of declaring the whole counsel of God never enters the mind of the average modern pastor. They seem satisfied as long as they can convince their hearers they are doing something religious and can collect their salaries.
Presupposition Seven: If It Is Working, It Must be Good
The problem with this faulty presupposition is it fails to define what "working" means. If "working" means it is attracting a large number of people, Roman Catholicism is "good," Islam is "good," porn sites on the internet are, "good," and we could go on and on. The Bible does not measure success this way. Instead, the biblical writers describe success in terms to faithfulness to the revealed will of God. If we are disobedient to God, we have failed, even if thousands applaud our disobedience.Presupposition EightConversion, in the Biblical Sense, Is Unimportant
It is altogether likely the leaders of this movement would be strident in their denial of this presupposition. They would insist they believe that at some point the unconverted need to become Christians. Yet, the emphasis of their ministry seems to be radically different from that of biblical Christianity. It seems the plan of operation is to teach the unconverted how to handle relationship issues and other matters in a Christian fashion in the hope that they will gradually embrace the Christian faith. Anyone who has read, The Purpose Driven Life, by Pastor Rick Warren, will surely recognize that he consistently addresses his readers as though they are believers. There is one brief passage in which he superficially alludes to a person?s need to become a Christian, but it is a far cry from the kind of conversion demanded by the Scriptures.
OK... I want to hear from you, the 'seeker-sensitive' leader. Is this an accurate 'read' of your heart (or your theology, for that matter?)
Last week, I asked if we could finally do away with the “seeker-sensitive = watered down" mentality. What ensued was a great discussion. One thing that I think is true that came out of this discussion is that labels are bad. As soon as you say the word "seeker" OR "sensitive" people take their sides before even listening to a word. Mark Waltz suggested some new terminology we could use: "Jesus-focused" or "People-sensitive".
Comments
if you want a Globally Recognized Avatar (the images next to your profile) get them here. Once you sign up, they will displayed on any website that supports them.
BeHim on Tue, October 25, 2005
[This is what happens when people focus more on what tickles the minds than touches the hearts.]
Scripture says something about “itching ears” {which by the way is speaking about Sound DOCTRINE - 2 Timothy 4} but I’m not sure, does your “version” say “tickles the minds”?
[As much as you may try to distance yourself from Calvin, it’s hard to dismiss a man who believed and taught as DOCTRINE, that babies who die go straight to hell, as well as promoting the DOCTRINE of predestination, which can easily be explained when one understands the character of God, instead of reading into the lines of what one thinks or hears someone else comment on.]
Is John Calvin a man? Yes. Do men make mistakes? Yes. Could John Calvin have made a mistake in his teaching? Yes. How do we test the teachings of men? Scripture! Let’s test Predestination together Ricky, are you willing??? Would you like to go to the Scriptures and test Predestination?
[Again, it’s surprising how someone who claims such a vast knowledge of Scripture can completely ignore the treasure that’s found in it.]
Ah so you agree that Scripture TEACHES [oops! DOCTRINE] us about “Relationship”. My point exactly! Thank you.
[There is a need for studying the Scriptures but, again, one can become so perverted in doing so for the purpose of knowledge that, as Paul said, it leads to a dangerous arrogance.]
What is arrogant about encouraging men of God to learn sound Doctrine in Scripture that they might be thoroughly equipped for every good work?
[Finally (for me at least, although I know that you won’t keep silent), to admit that I don’t know everything about Christ, His glory and what all this thing called “Christianity” is about, is not denying Him but affirming my own inadequacies and complete dependence upon His Spirit to guide me into the Truth.]
I know Scripture clearly teaches [DOCTRINE] that man is totally deprived and there is limited atonement and other things but never have I said I know “everything”. I’m not omniscient. If you’re saying these teachings are wrong, then let’s go to Scripture and test them, but please don’t say their wrong because you believe their wrong (as though you’re the authority). The Word of God is the Authority, not you nor I, let Scripture teach what is True.
[The problem I have with many Christians is that they claim, with a smugness that turns more people off than on, that they “know the truth,” when in reality what they “know” is THEIR version of the truth. Apparently, we have forgotten that we see in a “mirror darkly” but one day we’ll see the Truth, in Person, and that’s all we need to know.]
The problem you have is you’re truth doesn’t stand the test of Scripture and you’ll stand against any version that reveals this.
Again Ricky, I’m willing to ALWAYS test what I believe with Scripture because I don’t want “my version” to be what I consider True. Total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace and perseverance of the saints are clearly taught THROUGHOUT Scripture. As is Relationship and Love, Grace and many more SOUND DOCTRINES!
[If you wish to debate the “doctrines” of how many angels can dance on the head of a pin or whether Adam had a navel, then, by all means do so, but realize that all of that energy can be put to better use, that of fulfilling God’s purposes in this earth, which is the expansion of His Kingdom.]
Ricky, surely you’re not suggesting these are Scriptural teachings [Doctrines] are you???
God expands His Kingdom; my calling is to equip the Saints God puts in front of me to the best of my ability, in Truth and Love so that they might be prepared for every good work in ministry! When opportunity is presented, I share the Gospel with the lost and when opportunity is presented, I teach the Saints. It’s a wonderful freedom to know God will provide the opportunity.
[And it won’t get done with our collective heads buried in books…it takes RELATIONSHIP.]
Are you suggesting a relationship is what saves people? I disagree, THE Gospel saves people and because of this, I have a new relationship with Brothers and Sisters in Christ.
Randy, thank you for being so well spoken - I’m still learning to formulate words that flow in Truth but are still gentle.
WH - Perhaps “seekers” will ask what the argument is about and want to know “what is The Truth?” Are you equipped to provide an answer? If yes, praise God, If not, why would you deny a “seeker” the opportunity to see men of God seeking to know Him more? Surely you’re not going to suggest we’re wasting our time talking about The Bible, Doctrine, Relationship, THE Gospel etc., are you?
[If I thought by becoming a Christian I’d have to begin spending my time examining and judging the “presuppositions” of others, I think I’d say “no thanks.”]
Are you making a judgment that examining and judging is wrong?
LeVaN on Fri, November 03, 2006
http://www.fuktig-avholde.toyt3.com ^^^ http://www.amatorporno-lesbian.toyt3.com ^^^ http://www.studentessa-amatoriali-fottilo.str0nz0.com ^^^ http://www.farcical-cameriera-strip.str0nz0.com ^^^ http://www.remsa-svensk-handboll.pul4.com ^^^ http://www.enorm-dildo-satkarring.pul4.com ^^^ http://www.lek-mateo-stygn.pu1a.com ^^^ http://www.stygn-fulla-tjejer.pu1a.com ^^^ http://www.paan-james.huor4.com ^^^ http://www.natein-tytot-kusta.huor4.com ^^^ http://www.rakastettava-tytsyt-aasi-jotta-kita.hu0ra.com ^^^ http://www.rakastettava-tarjoilijatar-erotiikka.hu0ra.com ^^^ http://www.adeguato-giovane-spogliarello.fott1.com ^^^ http://www.sconfinato-infermiera-fotti.fott1.com ^^^ http://www.coy-amatoriali-dildo.f0tti.com ^^^ http://www.freddo-fighette-dildo.f0tti.com ^^^ http://www.nuori-vampyyri.sexsipillu.com ^^^ http://www.porno-trailerit-masturbating.sexsipillu.com ^^^ http://www.i-fred-lang.sexknulla.com ^^^ http://www.jattebrost-hyndan.sexknulla.com ^^^ http://www.sex-komsex.sexfitte.com ^^^ http://www.strompebukse-galleri-gjennomtrengning.sexfitte.com ^^^ http://www.bucce-fitness-sesso.sessololiti.com ^^^ http://www.risibile-fighette-fottilo.sessololiti.com ^^^ http://www.basso-insegnante.sesso-loliti.com ^^^ http://www.fica-clima.sesso-loliti.com ^^^ http://www.barbert-par-hardporno.toyt3.info ^^^ http://www.hardporno-amator-se.toyt3.info ^^^ http://www.cazzi-bollenti-sesso.tettin3.info ^^^ http://www.erotica-belle-puttanelle.tettin3.info ^^^ http://www.rilasciare-fotolog-chicas-chilenas.tett1ne.info ^^^ http://www.sesso-egzotic.tett1ne.info ^^^ http://www.inculata-da-cazzi-colorati.tard0ne.info ^^^ http://www.pics-kolpon-porno.tard0ne.info ^^^ http://www.tv-peponia-porno.t3ttine.info ^^^ http://www.studentessa-inglese-orale-fotti.t3ttine.info ^^^ http://www.masturbering-hcandersen-bilder.t0yt3.info ^^^ http://www.gratissex-stripp-danseur.t0yt3.info ^^^ http://www.ag-angels-porn.sl3tterig.info ^^^ http://www.etudiantes-baiser-gangbang.sl3tterig.info ^^^
Joe Myers on Thu, January 04, 2007
The Mormons baptize many people too but do we rejoice at their success? No, why, because what they were baptized to. And that is what many have problems with. Many churches have redefined the gospel and what God wants them to do by listening to the unchurched instead of our Lord Jesus Christ. Close to Idolatry? I’ll let God judge that one but it seems so to me. For the same reason many posts here have tried to defend themselves and say yah we are in agreement with you - we do that. Well, that’s because definitions have been broadened or you are not seeing how your actions contradict your words. It also smells of positive spin - bait and hook. I have seen this too often in looking for a church (20+ in the last few years).
Here is an example: Now I believe it does take reasoning to come to faith in Christ so don’t take me wrong. However, if SS churches hang their hat on explaining the gospel and watching what they say so they don’t offend to the point where much meaning is lost (faculties of reasoning), then is there really any trust that the Holy Spirit is the third communicator? Is there really any trust that it not only takes knowledge of the truth but revelation of the person of Christ to the soul of the hearer?
Another example: How can SS churches think that church is not in need of an overhaul when people within churches are forced into going with the flow of this new program? “You can’t criticize” is the mantra. Or preaching/teaching of the philosophy and not God’s Word is dominant. Or you must join a small group, etc.
I’m not so concerned with the motives but the truth that sinners are being presented. This is what Paul meant about “some preach for different reasons…” not “some preach different truths and that is ok”. Have mainline churches dropped the ball in the past? Yes, but we don’t sacrifice and repackage the truth. Now has this happened because some people resisted new changes based on silly personal opinions? Yes, but that doesn’t justify going too far with new ways to evangelize. I think most of us that are criticizing the movement (and let’s be real the SS/Emergent Church movement criticizes mainline or fundamentalists) are doing so not to divide but to actually unite the church in truth. If we really care about Christ and His kingdom and love for the lost, then we will care about all of Christ and fully disclose all, and sometimes hard-to-swallow, truth.
Lastly, I love the classic quote of scripture that is always mentioned about becoming a greek to the greek and a jew to the jew, etc.. But keep reading. Paul says he never compromises on the “Law of Christ”. If you are really honest, I think you have to admit that there are usually compromises made by these churches (by Christ’s standards/ways). It is the truth that sets man free, not sensitivity!
“Most people are willing to be God-centered if God is man-centered”, paraphrase of John Piper
Joe Myers on Thu, January 04, 2007
Oh ya, one more quick comment. How can you turn someone off who has never been on? That’s kinda of like the older woman who mentions to her pastor of the church she now attends that her parents forced her go to church when she was a kid and she really rebelled later because of it.
Tim on Mon, January 08, 2007
This may have been said already… I didn’t take the time to read all of the responses to your blog.
It just struck me that your assumption that the goal of seeker churches is to make sinners feel happy (or something like that) is essentially just setting up a straw man that you can knock down. I know of a few churches that might be described as “seeker” churches, and they are among the most evangelical churches I know of. Additionally, they are probably among the best around at actually discipling people after they come to Christ.
If you’re looking for Biblical justification regarding creative means to spread the gospel, you can get them from 1 Corinightians 9:19ff, or the example of Paul when he was speaking in Athens, or even the way that Jesus taught… using stories that people could relate to.
Joe on Mon, April 16, 2007
How do you know when you are being snowed? Look for the big words and name dropping.
Nice sounding word good for endless arguements over it’s meaning and a nice way to sound important.
Lets
Seek first the kindom of God and his rightousness
and
Be sensitive to the needs of others.
Alethea on Mon, July 06, 2009
How are you. The nice thing about egotists is that they don’t talk about other people. Help me! Can not find sites on the: Wells fargo credit cards. I found only this - usb credit card jump drives. The problem is not how much people spend using their credit cards but the fact that nearly of all americans do not pay off their balance monthly. Credit cards helped shape modern society and have paved the way for faster, easier, convenient, and more secure financial transactions. Thank you very much :eek:. Alethea from Kosovo.
Page 4 of 4 pages « First < 2 3 4
Post a Comment