Today’s Buzz: Can We Talk? Why the Free Pass?
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Thu, June 14, 2007
- Viewed 220
- (17) comments so far
Like Rick Warren… whose books are published by Rupert Murdoch… who also owns the company that publishes the Satanic Bible. Rick Warren is asked to take a public stand against Zondervan and publicly denounce Murdoch. One sites asks, “Will Saddleback Church, The Purpose Driven Church Network and the Southern Baptist Convention be guilty of hypocrisy if none of these groups publically stand against the publishers of the Satanic Bible?”
Problem is… two of John MacArthur’s books are also released and distributed by the same company. Any call for John to divest and rebuke? No.
There is much talk of compromising… the evils of purpose-driven, the seeker-sensitive movement, relevance, etc. coming from these same people. They tout Rick Warren, Perry Noble and many others as the watering down and ruin of real Christianity. But I find this interesting… a few weeks ago, John MacArthur spoke at Woodmen Valley Chapel, a church that is, by its own admission seeker-sensitive, contemporary, and culturally relevant. Their website says “Just as missionaries today must learn the language and culture of the people they are trying to reach, we also must know the language and culture of the people we are trying to reach. Our message is the timeless gospel of Jesus Christ as revealed in the Bible, but our methods are constantly being changed to most effectively connect with our culture.”
Ironically, the main platform most of these watchdog sites have is pointing out the evils of ‘constantly changing methods to connect with culture’.
And yet John speaks at a relevant, SS, contemporary church, and we hear no outcries of compromise?
John speaks at a church that is an open member of the Willow Creek Association and a host for their Leadership Summit? Where is the outrage?
They even work with Habitat for Humanity. Isn’t Jimmy Carter involved with them?
OK… maybe they didn’t know about this.
Well, now they do (most of them read MMI for good post fodder)… and they will write nothing about John’s seemingly quick slide down the slope of compromise and seeker-sensitive sin.
I’m sure that Woodmen Valley Chapel is a great church! And I’m certainly not condemning John MacArthur for speaking there. But I do wonder why JM gets a pass while everyone else gets jumped on?
Silence. That’s what you’ll hear on this one. And I find the whole thing fascinating.
What do you think?
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Don't get me wrong. I don't hate John MacArthur. We've never met. He doesn't know me from Adam. But there is a group of people who have elevated John MacArthur to almost cult status. In reality, he is one of the only (if not THE only) megachurch pastor that is still alive that some people like. (They used to really like John Piper as well, until a few months ago when he said the word "ass".) Other than dead theologians (there's nothing wrong with being dead, OR being a theologian), John is held up as the epitome of Christlikeness by most all in the watchdog camp. They quote him, compliment him, and thank him for his steadfast, uncompromising commitment to God's word. That's cool. While I disagree with John on some things, we probably agree on many more things than we'd disagree on. What's not cool is that these same people rip apart others for the same things they give John a pass on...
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Derek on Thu, June 14, 2007
It seems like we all have our heroes…our champions in the faith. Even the watchdog groups have their heroes and the deal with heroes is that we are able to gloss over their failures or completely ignore their seemingly contradictory actions, because they reach hero status.
Is this just an American culture thing? I am not sure. It seems like most places I have been (Mexico, Europe, India) each have their heroes whether it is pro-wrestlers, intellectual giants or social leaders. Maybe it stems from our human need to worship something or someone.
So Todd, maybe you are right…it is a type of cult (worship) practice to put one person on a pedestal and celebrate what we determine to be their success and downplay their failures or in the case of JM – inconsistencies.
nora on Thu, June 14, 2007
Because no one can possibly perfectly adhere to this group’s arbitrary set of legalistic standards, maybe giving MacArthur a free pass is their version of “Grace to John”? http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
Todd Rhoades on Thu, June 14, 2007
Nice point Derek.
There are people that we talk about here at MMI like Perry, Rick Warren, Andy Stanley, etc. that we respect… but I’m always trying to qualify my comments with “I might not agree with everything they do” kind of thing.
Matter of fact, I can’t think of any one person that I do entirely agree with. But that doesn’t make everyone else wrong. I’m not so pompous that I think I’ve got it all right and everyone else is wrong. I may, in fact, be wrong about one or possibly even two things. http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
Just ask my wife.
Todd
Derek on Thu, June 14, 2007
Yeah I think that we need to have a thoughtful respect for Christian leaders and our own personal heroes, but we have to remain thoughtful about that respect. The “cult of personality” occurs when you stop being thoughtful about the heroes of the faith you respect. We have to be thoughtful about their teaching and their lifestyle and say, “I respect that guy, but I would never treat my wife that way!”
William Carey is a guy that I hold up as a hero. Pioneer missionary in India against all olds. Told the stuffy, hyper Calvinistic clergy to England to “bite me” (ok so that is a rough translation). Sailed to India and pioneered a missions movement. That is all good, but he neglected his children (four boys) and his wife, who later had a nerveous breakdown.
A hero, but no free pass for Carey or any of our heroes.
Todd, you are my hero! And when have you ever been wrong on anything. I love the youtube videos and the Friday morning humor! http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/grin.gif
Tony Scialdone on Thu, June 14, 2007
I enjoy John MacArthur’s teaching, and spent the 30 minutes prior to reading this post listening to him do just that. I’ve also been to Woodmen Chapel, as it’s down the road a bit. I see John’s visit as a perfect fit for Woodmen. They’re very seeker-sensitive and are almost compulsive about examining everything they do in light of their intended audience…and they’re just as dedicated to sound Biblical teaching. Knowing the ministry of both, I don’t see anything odd about pairing the two.
I think John’s recent comments (I have his latest book, but haven’t cracked it yet) are more about the abuses that come from the seeker-sensitive community rather than a condemnation of the principles involved in attracting an audience and earning a hearing.
Todd Rhoades on Thu, June 14, 2007
Thanks, Tony… but that’s the paradox… most of John’s supporters would say that that ‘examining everything you do in light of your intended audience’ is compromising sound biblical teaching. That’s what they’re out to expose rather than commend.
Todd
Tony Scialdone on Thu, June 14, 2007
I’m sorry for the confusion, Todd. I was agreeing with you, and disagreeing with them. =)
David Wantz on Sat, June 16, 2007
It seems to me that the problem is not in the “hero” per se, but in the “watchdogs.”
What is the hero saying? Is the hero saying that knowing your congregation and teaching sound theology are not possible? Does the hero compromise his/her theology or principles to cater to the congregation? Does the hero condemn others for actions they take themselves?
If so, let the watchdogs start gathering the stones. Of course, they may want to look at their own lives first. I think that I remember a similar situation happening with a woman, some religious leaders, and Christ.
I feel one of our greatest problems in Christianity today is that the “Pharisees” have returned in force, have the loudest voices, and have taken over the agenda of the Church. These watchdogs seem to know the parts of the Bible that support their belief systems, but have forgotten Christ’s message.
I often ponder the question, “What if Christ returned in the same manner in which he came the first time?” “Would anyone recognize Him?” “How fast would He be blasted in the media?” “Who would be the first group to act as His watchdog?”
I usually conclude that He would be really pissed. I think we would wish could we get off as easy as the money-changes at the Temple. Remember, they didn’t have the benefit of knowing His message and His Grace.
We should all hope that He really does come back with a TRUMPET BLAST so we are not caught with our pants down or our tongues wagging.
Maybe it is time that we focused on Christ’s message.
Another question that I ponder is, “What would happen if every Christian took the time we use to criticize and condemn to personally reach out and help at least one person in need every day?” “What if we didn’t question the need?” “What if we didn’t ask how it benefited us first?”
C Fontenot on Sat, June 16, 2007
Todd,
Did you by any chance get a copy of the sermon preached at these churches? I believe that if John MacArthur were invited to preach at a church that hears nothing but a watered down, feel good message week in and week out and he had the opportunity to preach the truth, he would take it. They deserve to hear the real gospel just like anyone else. Another good question to ask is: “Was he invited to come back?”
Which two books by MacArthur were published by Zondervan and how long ago was it?
I saw JM on TBN one night with Kirk Cameron and I can assure you that what he said about the prosperity message and the name it and claim it clan insured him not getting invited by any of the regulars on that network!
He began broadcasting on Direct TV network his new teaching program. I wonder if anyone at TBN offered to show it? Because he exposes the lie of 99% of what TBN broadcasts as “Christian” I would guess they didn’t even offer.
Tony Scialdone on Sat, June 16, 2007
C Fontenot:
You can decide for yourself whether Woodmen Valley Chapel is home to watered-down, feel-good messages week in and week out:
http://tinyurl.com/2usgu8
Derek on Sat, June 16, 2007
C Fontenot
JM published Charismatic Chaos (1993) and The Gospel According to Jesus (1994) with zondervan. Here is the link:
http://www.zondervan.com/Cultures/en-US/Search/Search.htm?ViewImages=true&SearchValue=macarthur&SearchContent=Products&SearchMode=Simple&QueryStringSite=Zondervan
BTW Charismatic Chaos was one of the worst treatments of the charismatic movement that I have read. JH pulls together the most outrageous claims from various charismatic sources and builds a “strawman” that he calls the charismatic renewal. He is not even close.
Sure their are some charismatics that get a little freaky. There are some name it/claim it guys that get out of biblical bounds, but I think a gentle correction would go much further than a stern rebuke. JH has a tendency to hand out the harsh rebuke in the name of protecting the “truth” as defined by his interpretation of Scripture.
No problem with disagreement in the body of Christ, it just seems that JH disagrees without tact.
Derek
flockdoc on Mon, June 18, 2007
“Be wise as serpents…and harmless as doves.” You guys have better things to do with your time. Especially you, Todd.
Lori on Mon, June 18, 2007
C Fontenot said, “Did you by any chance get a copy of the sermon preached at these churches? I believe that if John MacArthur were invited to preach at a church that hears nothing but a watered down, feel good message week in and week out and he had the opportunity to preach the truth, he would take it. They deserve to hear the real gospel just like anyone else. Another good question to ask is: “Was he invited to come back?””
Having been very acquainted with Woodmen Valley for over 20 years (no I’m not a member, but have sung there, visited there and know many families there), I can attest that they do hear the Gospel and do not hear watered down messages every week. It is no surprise to me that John MacArthur would preach there. However, this is the problem with the criticism. I also attend a church with a similar description to WVC. But we do not deserve the criticism from the groups and people that Todd is talking about. I’m tired of this accusation. Our church presents the Gospel every week. Our pastor has preached sermons dealing with,brokenness, submission, marriage, hell, and all kinds of sin like homosexuality and abortion openly and without “watering down” the message. Sin is called out including the “works without faith” of Christians.
All this to say that there are thousands of contemporary, seeker sensitive, culturally relevant churches that preach the Gospel, teach Scripture in context, and call out sin openly, and do not deserve the legalistic judgment or being lumped all together with churches that don’t meet their standard. BTW, I have to laugh at these groups since I have been in and seen many conservative, traditional, ,non-charismatic, expositional teaching, theologically sound churches that are dead and not growing because they refuse to engage the people around them.
Tony Scialdone on Mon, June 18, 2007
>> “Be wise as serpents…and harmless as doves.” You guys have better things to do with your time.
Apparently you don’t have better things to do with your time than to interject into the conversation that others are being bad stewards for taking part in the conversation. I find your logic really, really odd, flockdoc.
David Copeland on Tue, June 19, 2007
What is missing in the American church is a maturity….we ALL only see in part; so we can only speak the “part” we know!
I would like to see us grow up to the point we could disagree without becoming the scripture police; (I’m not say we don’t speak out against sin and mishandling God’s Word)...but then there are some who make their living trying to prove they are the only one’s right and everyone else is wrong!
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