MondayMorningInsight - Leadership & Encouragement for Church Leaders

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JM on Sun, December 23, 2007

Does CS really have to read the entire book to know what he suspects? It really boils down to what prominence is given to what a Christian’s authority should be: a sociology study or the words of Christ, what is seen or the Word of God. How come you can’t get just as excited about the Word of God as you are about this book on how to do church?
Leonard on Sun, December 23, 2007

JM,

Did you read the book? Just asking, I read it and it was much more than a sociological study. To assume any of us are not excited about the word is a huge jump. Not sure there is enough information here to make that kind of leap.
Ken in VB on Mon, December 24, 2007

To Wendi and others:

#2 (regarding atheism) definitely belongs on the list. There is a new atheism, as it’s called, which has being very successful at changing the national discussion. In the face of Islamic terrorism, it is not Islam that is the problem but all religion (according to these writers). Their form of atheism is very heated and confrontational. Many old arguments against faith/Christianity are being revived; annoying, but also a great platform for discussion about the gospel, and a call for believers to think through their faith afresh.

This is a GREAT yearly discussion. I hope the conversation about Reveal can be moved elsewhere so others don’t feel they can’t participate in the primary question posed by Mr. Rhoades. I appreciate that discussion too, but would just encourage us not to keep that one on this thread.

Ken

Virginia Beach
Peter Hamm on Mon, December 24, 2007

JM,

The Word of God is exciting and vital and interesting and I can’t stand to live without it. But then I’ve actually read it (and continue to read it), which is not something, it appears, that is true about REVEAL for many of those who have been criticizing it. Thanks for helping me make my point.

Ken,

You are so right, it would be interesting to follow a discussion of the atheism thing. I was one of the participants in the discussion at off-the-map when they “bought” Hemant Mehta’s soul and sent him to church and then engaged both believers and non-believers in a spirited and polite discussion (I was the “guest blogger” for a week, too), and I find the “new atheism” pretty interesting myself. Of course I always find it a little disturbing that someone can look at the marvelous order of creation and say that there is no God… I just can’t fathom that myself.

I guess I do want to talk more about it.
CS on Mon, December 24, 2007

Peter (and others):

The insistence here seems to be that, “If you haven’t read the Reveal book, you can’t comment on it (or at least not accurately).” I disagree with this claim. As I mentioned, I read the material on the web site and listened to the orations by the two major pastors at Willow Creek. They took the information, distilled it, and presented it outside of the bounds of their book. It is upon this information that I have made my statements about the results of the study.

Imagine attending a speech by a secular musician. The musician states that there is objectionable material within his CD. I do not have to then listed to the CD to know that I would find offense in it. I can take the words of the musician firsthand. This is same case within the Reveal study. Sure, I may gain more information by reading the book about Reveal, but I believe that the heart of the matter, the core premises, have already been revealed by Bill Hybels outside of the confines of the pages of the book. And the information he has divulged shows that there is a serious problem inherent in the way Willow Creek has been doing church and teaching others likewise to do. This is what should make it on the top list of headlines. Even check The Way of The Master Radio; they agreed with it, and they probably read the book, too.—

CS
Leonard on Mon, December 24, 2007

CS and JM and any one else with initials at a handle. (smiley face here)

First off the Willow Team did not say they were wrong in building a church that seeks the lost, they said they were wrong in what they thought would bring a person to maturity in Christ.

Secondly the Willow study was not only willow but several other churches too.

To jump on the band wagon of basher’s by overstating a conclusion (pharmaceutical companies) is silly.

Why not take an a hour and read the book?
Peter Hamm on Mon, December 24, 2007

CS

The problem isn’t as much that you didn’t read the book as it is that your assessment of its conclusions are incorrect. I base this assertion on my more intimate knowledge of its details (having read the book, heard the presentations AND actually being part of the next leg of the details). I feel if you read the book (with an open mind) you’d be more likely to understand and appreciate what the study actually said, rather than simply leap to the conclusions of what people who are critical of WC to begin with (such as yourself I am guessing) AND haven’t immersed themselves in the data are saying.

It’s that simple. Again. I am more intimate with the details of this study and am simply suggesting to you that you are incorrect in your assessment of what the findings actually are. It doesn’t help that you are using pretty bold and negative rhetoric to make your statements. You actually compared them to a pharmaceutical company whose product was more harmful than helpful. I have gotten to know several people inside that organization and can tell you that nothing could be further from the truth.
Wendi on Mon, December 24, 2007

CW – I think that one of the things “revealed” by the reveal study is the determination of WC to evaluate and assess, even when the process forces them to face “brutal reality” (to borrow a term from Jim Collins – quite fitting for a great organization like Willow).

What Willow does, and did here, was invest time and money to assess how they are doing at their mission, and change course when they discover something isn’t working. This probably represents the most comprehensive course correction, but it’s hardly the first.

Most of our churches (mine included – to some degree) get so caught up in doing what we think will work (move us toward our God-given mission), we don’t stop to check up on whether it really is working.

You are quick to find fault with WC for revealing that the methods they thought would help people grow as disciples and pass on their faith . . . weren’t as effective as they had believed. How do you assess how well your methods are working? And please, with all due respect, don’t tell me that you know stories of people with changed lives. We all have those stories. God will work whether or not we are paying attention to results. Willow has thousands of stories too. What I commend them for is considering whether there are reasonable results (stories) for the resources and influence with which they have been entrusted. We should all be willing to do as much, and face our own brutal realities.

Wendi
T. C. Smith on Mon, December 24, 2007

As a pastor of a very small SBC Church, (Bi-Vocational no less), I am, (in my moments of covetousness), jealous of the aforementioned large churches. However this discussion was about the, “Top Ten News Stories for Christians in 2007”.

Most of the discussion so far, is all inward.

However, what we need to note, is the trends of the secular world, and how we can use them to reach the lost.

I have a real problem with bashing, or centering, on ourselves, and our failures, instead of focusing on, (especially in this Christmas Season), “how do we reach the lost and bring them into a soul saving relationship with Christ”.

Do we continue to ignore the list, or do we do something about it?

As for me, I am going out into the trenches and find out how to reach the lost with the Gospel. (Yes, The Gospel). This is much more important to the lost than all of the other trivia we have a tendency to focus on.

See you at The Cross.

In His Grip, Pastor Tom
Brian Bonner on Sun, December 30, 2007

How about the illegal alien invasion? How about the turn around in Iraq? How about the sub-prime mortgage crisis?
Peter Hamm on Sun, December 30, 2007

Brian,

EXCELLENT point.

It’s easy for us to forget that the non-religious things that happen in the world do indeed affect us “religious” people!

Thanks for the reminder. Perhaps the list should be re-titled “top christian news stories for christians”…