United Methodists and Satan
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Mon, August 11, 2008
- Viewed 130
- (27) comments so far
And not only do Methodists avoid talking about he-who-must-not-be-named. They don’t sing about him either.
C. Michael Hawn, professor of church music at Perkins School of Theology, says United Methodist churches are prone to lop off the last few stanzas of Martin Luther’s hymn, “A Mighty Fortress is Our God,” to protect unsuspecting worshippers from having to sing the third stanza, with its references to “this world, with devils filled” and “the Prince of Darkness grim.”
“Most of the discussions of evil in mainline Anglo churches,” said Dr. Hawn, “are not anthropomorphic in nature—references to a physical being called Satan or the Devil—but theological or much more general.
“Regretfully, many United Methodists don’t even want to discuss sin, let alone the devil.”
So why all this “denial” about the devil?
You’ll have to read on here to find out!
Hey… we have a good amount of UMers here… what’s your view on Satan?
I just read an interesting article over at the UM Portal. Here's part of it:
Though Methodism founder John Wesley talked about Satan in his sermons, the United Methodist Church has no official doctrine on the devil or the demonic. Few Methodist ministers in the U.S., it seems, preach about Satan as a personal being active in the world today...
Many United Methodists, for instance, gasped during the 2008 General Conference when an African delegate on the floor argued that homosexuality was “of the devil.”
It wasn’t just his position on homosexuality that drew the offended gasps, says Jerry Walls, who taught philosophy of religion for 21 years at Asbury Theological Seminary. Adding the devil to the conversation made it a “double offense” in the minds of some delegates.
“Bringing up the supernatural reality of Satan is enough to make a typical United Methodist go into conniptions,” he said...
Comments
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Peter Hamm on Mon, August 11, 2008
It is also unfortunate that most of the “classic” Christian thinking about Hell and Satan come from Dante rather than Scripture.
Gary Sweeten on Mon, August 11, 2008
Those who say we need to “love” people need to explain what that means. If I see a brother/sister in need of a coat yet I say with a caring, loving voice, “I affirm you brother/sister. You are wonderful. God loves you and wants you to know His love and acceptance. Yda, yada, yada, but refuse to offer practical assistance I am not loving at all.
If I see a person in depression or OCD but refuse to get them help from medicine and therapy I am not loving. You see where I am going don’t you.
If I see a Gaderen all bound by demonic spirits but refuse to set him free because of my fear that my PC language might offend him I am not loving him/her.
One can hardly read the NT without seeing warfare in every chapter. One cannot work with hurting people without seeing warfare once a week or so. When we loving Christians see a person who is bound it is time to “Say the word” that Luther used to set him/her free. If it is so easy why are so few people getting free and felling demons?
(An appropriate key word is used here: hell!
Rick McBrayer on Mon, August 11, 2008
I am a currently a music director in a UMC church in the San Diego area. The biggest problem with the UMC now is not the Satan issue, but that the UMC churches of Southern California recently passed resolutions at their District Conference to support gay marriage, and also support the defeat of the Marriage Protection Amendment on the November ballot. I was so offended by this, that I am resigning my position as music director. The Bible speaks very clearly against homosexuality, and the UMC is entering dangerous territory by compromising on this issue. Please pray that God will provide the income that I need as I take this step of faith to walk away from my job at the UMC church by standing up for what I believe in. Thanks!
Rev. Rick
Escondido, CA
phill on Mon, August 11, 2008
YEP…probably not a UMC deal but a church deal…you can replace UMC with other denomantions and get the same thing…
Its funny because people of different beliefs all believe the other beliefs worships Satan…
A baptist told her daughter that she could not hang with my daughter because we were Methodist…and I am a pastor…that use to serve in a southern baptist church…
crazy world…
Helen Betz on Mon, August 11, 2008
I dunno, Daniel, is it enough for a troop walking in a jungle on enemy territory to simply say “I know that this enemy is here, but I have no clue how it works or what rules it lives by, I know nothing about it except that it’s bad…But if I just live according to my country’s precepts and think on happy things, then I will be fine, as will everyone else who I have been trained to defend”.
Living rightly and focusing largely on what is good and pure are extremely strong tools in escaping the snares of the enemy…But there are times when we could be faced with evil so raw that we either know what we are dealing with and how to deal with it or the enemy takes a prisoner.
Case in point:
My friend Kim was leaving her church and saw a woman lying in the parking lot moaning and howling like a wounded animal. This is a woman who attends church regularly but becomes agitated at any message that speaks about the atoning blood of Jesus. Her face is contorting and her body is moving in an unnatural fashion.
My friend, familiar with deliverance, got help in the church and an endless night with this woman ensued. The team took hours trying to untangle this woman from the damage done by a systematic, hierarchical structure that thrives on destroying people. This woman was a victim of satanic ritual abuse. She herself desperately wanted to be free but was struggled to hold onto healings. She had been traumatized in her mother’s womb which caused her to fracture into multiple personalities. Each personality was later assigned a demon.
The fact that my friend and the team that worked with the lady were all upstanding Christians who likely thought on pure things and did not conform to this world were of little direct use to this woman.
My point is not that everyone should have to go through years of theory and training in deliverance…Not everyone is called to deliverance ministry. But we are all called to be able to face evil directly and at least understand enough to know the ways in which the enemy works. I believe that there should be basic training in spiritual warfare for believers.
Not so we can walk around afraid, but so we can walk around in victory.
Helen Betz on Mon, August 11, 2008
Ok - and I am a resource queen…Here are some good reads about this subject:
Deliverance from Evil Spirits - Francis Macnutt
Good overall look at the topic, well researched and biblically sound from an experienced pastor.
Pigs in the Parlor - Frank and Ida Mae Hammond
A bit more raw and experiential but Biblically supported info.
The Screwtape Letters - CS Lewis
Great Website:
http://www.layhands.com
This guy is really thorough in his research and discussions. But it’s written in an easy fashion.
LOL - the captcha code for this post is ironically “hell54” hahahahaha!
David on Mon, August 11, 2008
I read the full article, then the MMI article, and a good chunk of the comments as well. What amazed me about the article and some of the comments is the “desire” to read for the sake of commenting, not for the sake of understanding. Whether in our biblical exposition or web site comments, doesn’t it all seem to come down to personal opinions?
There were comments about being uncomfortable talking about sin and the devil and how our understanding of certain biblical ideas changes as the culture changes; there was one response, to a man who said he would preach on Satan but focused more on Christ because Christ redeems, that said we should focus on Christ but that focus doesn’t mean we should ignore the topic of Satan. Isn’t that what the guy had said?? I confess, I don’t really understand this failure to comprehend the written word, divine or otherwise.
Hasatan, or Satan, is called the devil, the tempter, the accuser, and even a masquerader of light. Yes, the power of evil is often attributed to Satan and the Bible has shown this in a number of ways, namely in Revelation as a physical entity. Could be metaphor…but would Jesus continue to let people think something untrue by using the language himself? Perhaps he only wanted people to understand his message of God’s will (more than he wanted to be accurate by saying, “Get behind me, my tendency to practice evil when left to my selfish decisions!” <—see the amplified Bible, maybe?). We have taken Dante’s idea of Satan as ‘gospel’ and think of him as the puppet-master, a minor God who will duke it out with JC in the last days.
Maybe we should stop with the social constructs, forming a concept of evil and Satan that seems more palatable to us, and wrestle with what the Bible says about Satan. By wrestle with, I don’t mean form a doctrine so that everyone has this difficult to understand entity and idea in a nicely wrapped box, forever and ever amen. I mean wrestle with it. And sometimes, like Jacob, what we find might stink or leave us hobbling for the rest of our lives, but at least then it would be honest - whether in confusion or certainty. Satan can influence people. One day Jesus is going to end that for good. Yes, we can kick Satan and his influence out of our minds and hearts on a moment-by-moment basis by invoking the name of Jesus, but the only one nuking hell, ol’ Horny Head, or his minions is the literal person of Jesus when He’s good and ready. Do we need something more definitive, really? We may find comfort in it for awhile, but it will go away and then we’ll find something else to be freaked out about and question.
Maybe we don’t need doctrines about Satan as much as we need to stand up for what the Bible says - and I don’t mean that like some fundamentalist. Sometimes we see truly metaphorical passages and sometimes we see terms (like Satan, and hell, and sin) that we would love to ascribe metaphorical labels to so we’ll feel better and people won’t feel offended or blame their own decisions on some ethereal object. Maybe we’ve developed such a habit of blaming others for our problems, and wiping the slate clean of personal responsibility, that truth also gets exchanged for a lie and Satan gets absolved into nothingness in our minds. After all, “the best trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.
But don’t take such things as gospel or anything. After all, they’re just my personal opinions…
David Richardson on Mon, August 11, 2008
I remember years ago reading something by C.S. Lewis that stated (excuse my paraphrase here) that there are two extremes when it comes to this topic. Some put too much attention on it, and some don’t put enough. I suppose Lewis was calling for a healthy balance, and I think he was right.
Helen Betz on Mon, August 11, 2008
David said:
“Maybe we’ve developed such a habit of blaming others for our problems, and wiping the slate clean of personal responsibility, that truth also gets exchanged for a lie and Satan gets absolved into nothingness in our minds. After all, “the best trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.”
Very true…One thing that becomes obvious in deliverance ministry is that the free will of a human is often more difficult to deal with than anything demonic. Demons MUST sumit to the name of Jesus…Humans do not. Sometimes the lies and influence that we allow satan to have in our lives is more comfortable than the thought of letting it go. ‘The devil made me do it” only goes so far. In the end there is a lot of personal choice involved. That line can be blurred but on average, we would all do well to learn where the enemy is getting a foothold and then stop agreeing with him.
Dane on Mon, August 18, 2008
Have you ever had a demon talk to you out of a person’s mouth? I mean really? Like they spoke to Jesus in the Gospels? I have.
Read Mark’s Gospel, the first nine chapters. Dealing with demons was often “front and center”. They eyes of everyone were focused on it. This was a large part of Jesus’ public ministry. He was famous for it. Jesus said that in driving out demons He was demonstrating the very kingdom of God in their midst.
Too many American pastors have heads full of supposed knowledge about this, but no real analogous experience. No kingdom authority. Jesus didn’t simply preach. He demonstrated the spiritual authority He proclaimed.
Anybody ashamed of this is no threat to the devil.
Tony on Mon, December 01, 2008
I have attended the First United Methodist Church in Birmingham for about two years . I live downtown and searched for a church within proximity of where I live . Me and my wife and son are now in search of a new family home . I did not know that the basic fundamental Methodist believe is Grace . This one fundamental is agreed apon throughout the United Methodist . It raises the question about the other fundamentals . The pastor of the church said he was not going to answer the question if Satin is real . Would not acknowledge the name Satin or Lucifer . Finally with the question of do you believe in a being that tempts man and the pastor said he did not know if he believes . The pastor ! Not believing in Satin , Lucifer or a tempter ! I had know idea that a Christian Church would not believe in Satin . The deceiver can confuse the people to the point of not being able to reason . The question is , does a church body believe the Bible is true from the begining to the end ? I do and am amazed to see The First United Methodist Church of Birmingham Alabama pastor saying he’s not sure If Satin in real . Wow . Where is the church going . Do I now go straight to the pastor of every church I go and ask the basic fundamentals of Christianity . How lost are the churches of today ? I did not realize how Satin is tricking churches into believing he is not real . Please rebuke Satin and acknowledge his attack on the churches is real and his deception is at work .
Tony on Mon, December 01, 2008
Sorry about that . I misspelled Satan . In the previous article . Not satin or fabric .
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