What Do Young Non-Christians Really Think about the Church?
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Wed, October 22, 2008
- Viewed 87
- (34) comments so far
72% said out of touch with reality
70% said insensitive to others
68% said boring
64% said not accepting of other faiths
61% said confusing
Read more of Kent’s great post here at ChurchRelevance.com
What do you think? And how do we change the “Christianity First Impressions” among these young people?
Get current updates from MMI and me here: http://www.twitter.com/toddrhoades
Kent Shaffer over at ChurchRelevance recently reported some statistics from Gabe Lyons, author of unChristian. Non-Christians aged 16-29 years old were asked, “What is your current perception of Christianity?”
91% said antihomosexual
87% said judgmental
85% said hypocritical
78% said old-fashioned
75% said too involved in politics
Read some more of the statistics here. They are fascinating...
Comments
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Brian L. on Wed, October 22, 2008
Dan,
I apologize for missing that part of your post.
My issue is that so many who claim “the world will hate us” us that as a justification for being hateful.
Also, I don’t see anything in my post that accuses you of this, but if it came across that way, I ask for your forgiveness. I was not judging you, but responding to what I so often see in posts about the world hating Christians.
CS on Wed, October 22, 2008
Three responses:
Wendi:
“And CS – One could make a case that the type of sinful behavior you point out (sexual deviancy) isn’t more prevalent today, just more open, making it appear more prevalent.”
I’m not evaluating the quantity of sin present, but the reaction to such sin in light of peoples’ perceptions of Christianity. If the quantity of sin remains the same, but the acceptance of sinful activities such as adultery, lust, and homosexuality goes up, wouldn’t anyone who says that those actions are wrong be perceived to be more and more intolerant? Although the protestor has not changed in stance or degree of volume, due to the way everyone else has changed, the message is perceived as being more harsh and condemning.
Dave Z:
““I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ.”
“There is a story that Ghandi, after reading the Gospels, was very interested in Christianity, but was turned away when he tried to enter a church. “
I’ve heard this analogy before, especially in light of the, “unChristian,” book. I found that his statement is akin to saying, “I like you, but I can’t stand your wife.” We have no record of Ghandi repenting and putting his trust in Christ, which means that he likely admired his own understanding (idol) of Christ, and would likely naturally be turned off by believers in a church. And even Christians who exercise their faith poorly cannot get in the way of God saving someone from their sins.
Katrina:
I wish I could have gone. I’m in the western states, and it’s a shame we don’t get more good conferences like they have in the east and in the Bible Belt. I would have been one of the 500, too.
—
CS
Brian L. on Wed, October 22, 2008
Pastor Dan - I’d love to hear some of your messages. If they are e-mailable, send them to [removed]
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Thanks. I look forward to hearing them!
Katrina on Wed, October 22, 2008
Wendi,
Luke 4 :16-30 is a great example. Here, Jesus is in His hometown…people there watched Him grow up. He gets up and tells them things that make them look at Him in awe and were even impressed with all the things He was saying as well as speaking good things about Him. Then He sat down and Illuminated the truth of the Gospel…He told them they were no better than a gentile widow from the Jezebel’s home town. He told them they were no better than a leperous Syrian terrorist because of there sins. What was their reaction? They tried to throw HIm from a cliff. These “religious” unredeemed sinners thought that they were better than gentiles because of Abraham’s covenant. They were in the “in” crowd therefore they could look down on others. Jesus told them clearly they were sinners in need of a Savior and just like the rest of the world when we tell the same message, they hated Him and attempted to kill Him. Paul, Peter, Timothy, John, Matthew, Jude, James, Luke, and all the other disciples eventually suffered the same fate and you will too if you are faithful to preach the Gospel to all creation. (Mark 16:15)
The key now is will you believe it when Scripture tells us that God’s Gospel message is offensive to the lost but is the power of God unto salvation? Though the modern Christian church in America waters that message down to a nonoffensive, feel good about yourself, man-centered message, the true Gospel offends and it is designed to. Either you are for Jesus or you are against Him…the Gospel prevents you from riding the fence.
fishon on Wed, October 22, 2008
At the risk of being accused of being in denial, I believe much [though not all] of the reactions and perceptions of the church can be attributed to the media, Hollywood and television programing.
TV talking heads, News pundits, and particularly tv sitcoms marginalize, bash, and ridicule Christians. Ask yourself, what is this age group, Non-Christians16 - 29, watching and listening to? Where are they getting their news and info? Who are their idols? Who are their roll-models?
Their heros/idols proclaim homosexuality a lifestyle and anyone who says or thinks differently is JUDGMENTAL—OLD-FASHION, AND ANTIHOMOSEXUAL. Thinking like that of course leads to saying that we are INSENSITIVE TO OTHERS.
We live in a time where the news media—Hollywood—talking heads defines and shapes the thinking and popular culture of our society. They literally ruined the political career of Dan Quayle because he mis-spelled potatoe [I still don’t know how to spell it], yet Joe Biden can reference F. Roosevelt as get on tv when the stockmarket crashed and having a fireside chat with America. Yet good old Joe got a free pass. They could hav ruined him in just a few days, but chose not to.
And that is what they do with Christians. Over and over, day and night—tv sitcom after tv sitcom we are made the anti—judgemental hypocritical fools. And millions of Christians are buying into it themselves. Yep, by golly, we are the bad guys. We are just what the NON-CHRISTIAN paints us to be. Yessiree, those NON-CHRISTIANS have us pegged. We had better become sensitive so we can win them.
Well, we aren’t perfect, BUT WE AIN’T WHAT THEY PAINT US TO BE—and sadly, many, and many in this blog site have swallowed what they feed you. Notice what the biggest % is.
We call practicing homosexuality as sin, so Oprah, Clay, Larry King, Ellen, movie stars, Tammy Fay, Brokaw, Madonna, the Most Rev. Dr. Katharine Jefferts Schori, Ladies of the View, etc. call us judgmental and insensitive.
Sorry, I don’t buy all the propaganda. Yes, we may be viewed as the survey points out. But for the most part [ yes there are a few problems], we are buying into a lie of Satan to get us to fight amongst ourselves and to become a weak—wink at sin Corinthian church that Paul took to task.
Many Christians are like that poor frog in a cold pan of water—the heat is being apply by the enemy and they think the enemy is their friend—the survey is not our friend; it is the enemies way of turning up the heat—and just like that frog, we like the warmth—and never even realized we died.
fishon
Bruce on Wed, October 22, 2008
Katrina said:
The key now is will you believe it when Scripture tells us that God’s Gospel message is offensive to the lost but is the power of God unto salvation? Though the modern Christian church in America waters that message down to a nonoffensive, feel good about yourself, man-centered message, the true Gospel offends and it is designed to. Either you are for Jesus or you are against Him…the Gospel prevents you from riding the fence.
Yes the gospel is offensive but you are confusing the message preached in many Evangelical Churches with “the gospel.” You confuse “the gospel” with the right wing, political, Americanism that is preached as the gospel in many Churches.
Rail against the homosexuals but none of them are sitting in the pew. Rail against the “liberals” and Democrats, and the pacifists, and the violators of Church standards (a law unto themselves) and pretend such preaching is the gospel, but it isn’t.
Maybe it is not that way in your Church but it is in a number of Evangelical Churches (and perhaps those are the Churches that are the focus of the survey)
In the last year I have been told I am not a Christian because I am a liberal, because I support Barack Obama, because I am not a single issue voter, because I don’t believe in word for word inerrancy,because I believe in women preachers…..shall I go on?
If anyone is “confusing” the gospel it is those mentioned above. It is a hateful. mean-spirited gospel that the world see and the world is offended (and rightly so)
As long as people like Tony Perkins and James Dobson (among others) are allowed to speak for Evangelicals and say “this is THE way” the world will want nothing of what we have to offer.
The true gospel begins with us living it out. We are real good at preaching it but we are no so good at living it.
Bruce on Wed, October 22, 2008
Fishon said
At the risk of being accused of being in denial, I believe much [though not all] of the reactions and perceptions of the church can be attributed to the media, Hollywood and television programing.
Just make them watch Fox News and all will be well http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
Or maybe the the blockbusters Facing the Giants and Fireproof (you know real life movies)
That oughta do it….....Their mind meld with the religious right will fix everything that ails them.
fishon on Wed, October 22, 2008
Bruce,
This old country hick doesn’t know what to make of your reply. I don’t know if you agree or disagree with me or are neutral?
Fox News???
Facing the Giants and Fireproof—never heard of them.
Mind meld—religious right???? Is that like the religious are right and the religious left have left religion???
You need to speak/write straightforward for me. I am not good at interpretation.
fishon
Bruce on Wed, October 22, 2008
Fishon,
I was in humor/sarcasm/smart **s mode http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
I agree with some of what you said.
But…....if media is the problem then just change the media they are listening to. So a steady diet of Fox News, Rush, etal along with only watching the Christian Evangelism movies, Fireproof and Facing the Giants, should fix them.
Mind meld=Star Trek reference. Spock used the mind meld technique to become one with someone. http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
Now you know the rest of the story, As Paul Harvey would say.
Hope this clears my post up.
fishon on Wed, October 22, 2008
Thanks Bruce,
Ah, now I get it. Just slow today.
Nay, a steady diet of those you mentioned won’t do it either. Heck, they would just go too far the other way. I use to be a Hannity fan, but I can’t stand listening to him any more. Not necessarily for what he believes, but he has now become Foxes Keith Oberman.
Spock—I loved him. How could I have missed that???
Bruce, a question to these 2 paragraphs of yours: : : Rail against the homosexuals but none of them are sitting in the pew. Rail against the “liberals” and Democrats, and the pacifists, and the violators of Church standards (a law unto themselves) and pretend such preaching is the gospel, but it isn’t.
Maybe it is not that way in your Church but it is in a number of Evangelical Churches (and perhaps those are the Churches that are the focus of the survey)
——-If my questions come off as—ah, just take them as questions—just having a discussion
Do you really think that is going on on a large scale? If so, is it a guess or do you have facts to back up your thoughts?
I have no facts either way. I am just guessing that we are fed a line that what you say is going on, in most/many pulpits, really isn’t happening on the scale that it is said to be.
fishon
Bruce on Wed, October 22, 2008
Fishon asked:
Do you really think that is going on on a large scale? If so, is it a guess or do you have facts to back up your thoughts?
Fair question. Here my take.
1.I am 51 years old and a life long, card carrying Fundamentalist/Evangelical
2.I went to a Fundamentalist Baptist College and pastored Fundamentalist/Evangelical Churches for 25 years
3. In the above Churches it is certainly the case.
4.Last weekend my in-laws came to our home with their McCain/Palin badges. Severla times Iwas told they couldn’t understand how a Christian could support that baby-killer Obama. They go to a Fundamentalist Baptist Church.
A broader picture:
1.Since “retiring” from the pastorate our family has visited about 125 or so Churches in Ohio, Michigan and Arizona
2.These Churches ranged from Catholic to Fundamentalist Baptist and just about every Evangelical sub-species in between.
3.If the Churches we visited are representative of Evangelicalism then YES this is a widespread problem.
The problem is “perception is reality.” Always has been and always will be. So when James Dobson says some of the hateful stuff he has said it is perceived that he speaks for all of us.
People turn on Christian TV and see John Hagee, TBN, Benny Hinn,Rod Parsley,Joyce Meyer, etal and they perceive that those people represent Evangelicalism.
They don’t. I know it. You know it. BUT the world thinks they do and that is all that matters.
The number of Churches that Focus on the Family has their hooks in is amazing. Same way with the Moral Majority of yesteryear. Add the Family Research council, David Barton’s group, etc and it is quickly apparent that these groups have incredible access to Churches and to the pulpits.
If I had a dollar for every sermon I heard on “Let’s Take American back for God” I’s by you a nice dinner http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif Of course if I had a dollar for every sermon preached on peace and justice we would be eating off the dollar menu. I went to a QUAKER Church 2 years ago and the Pastor was advocating and promoting the Iraq war. Come to find out the pastor was a Baptist. Never expected to hear a pro-war sermon in a pacifist denomination.
Wendi Hammond on Wed, October 22, 2008
Katrina – Your example of Jesus in his home town isn’t a great example because it doesn’t answer the question as I posed it (or intended to pose it). The people in Jesus’ town were Jews. They were “insiders,” as they had always worshiped one god, they had the law, knowledge of the sacrificial system put in place to atone for their sin, along with prophecy of the Messiah. They had no excuses. Although all are sinners in need of redemption, Gentile sinners had to be brought to an understanding of one true God worthy of their worship, their inherent sinfulness and need for a Messiah. It was (is) a much longer road in many cases.
With a better understanding (I hope) of my question, I’ll ask again if you can you point me to one place where Jesus was hated by a lost sinner because He pointed out their sin and bad theology?
And CS – you make a good point that you were referring to tolerance and acceptance of sinful behavior now that it’s out in the open, as opposed to quantity of sinfulness. A follow-up question would then be, if we assume that the “quantity” of sinful behavior has remained the same over centuries (an impossible point to prove or disprove), was our society better when it was hidden or when it was open? One could make a case that with sinful practices open, we (as Christians) have been given a much better opportunity to talk to people with whom the Lord leads us into relationships, if we would do that instead of railing against them. Talking does not mean passing anti-gay, anti-abortion laws.
I completely agree with Bruce, since marrying our political position with our faith, Satan has succeeded in pulling many of us off mission. We have persuaded ourselves that railing against and passing laws to prevent all sinful behavior IS preaching the gospel. As a result many have not only failed to preach it, but in so doing have unnecessarily alienated the very people God has called us to love and reach. The stats from the young non-Christians makes the point. Jesus had favor with ALL MEN. I don’t think His stats would have looked like ours.
I repeat the admonishment of Paul in 1 Cor 5:12 – we have no business judging those outside our faith.
Wendi
fishon on Wed, October 22, 2008
Bruce,
I can’t quarrel with your experences. Maybe I don’t get around enough. As far as the famous names you mentioned, yes, I have heard some of what you say from them.
It is apparent that you and I would not and do not agree on some of the stuff that they say from the pulpits. Much of what they say about certain issues I agree with.
Not to start a debate with you, but I do believe that abortion, in most cases, is murder, and for the life of me I do not see how a Christian can vote for someone who will advocate it. I believe the the homosexual agenda is killing our Nation. However, I do not preach Sunday after Sunday about those particular subjects. If in the context of the scripture I am preaching, and the controversial subjects naturally come forth, I don’t duck them. But I don’t make it a point to preach on those subjects; well, maybe once every 3-4 years, but then on just one Sunday. I am guessing you disagree with me.
Bruce, I know very little about “Focus on the Family” and Dobson. What does he say that is so hateful? I have hear him speak on tv a time or two, but for the life of me, can not remember anything hateful. I am looking for answers, not a debate.
Hum, I have never said “Let’s take America back for God.” Can’t imagine I would, caused God can take America back any time He wishes.
It is good to talk with you. Hopefully I don’t come off to harsh. I have taken some advice from a couple guys on this blog site and tried to watch how I say things. Don’t always make it, but try.
fishon
CS on Wed, October 22, 2008
Wendi:
“A follow-up question would then be, if we assume that the “quantity” of sinful behavior has remained the same over centuries (an impossible point to prove or disprove), was our society better when it was hidden or when it was open? “
What’s worse: a society that is aware of its sins and at least tries to hide them or suppress them in some degree due to conviction, or a society where the consciences of people have been seared with a hot iron that causes them to openly praise sin? Don’t get me wrong—sin is still sin—but I would say that the former shows at least people who were aware of what they were doing and did not promote it openly.
“One could make a case that with sinful practices open, we (as Christians) have been given a much better opportunity to talk to people with whom the Lord leads us into relationships, if we would do that instead of railing against them. Talking does not mean passing anti-gay, anti-abortion laws.”
That could be true. But when we, as Christians, are presented with laws and civil matters to decide on, such as Colorado’s Amendment 48 that gives personhood to the unborn, shouldn’t we vote in a way that would be God-honoring?
—
CS
Bruce on Wed, October 22, 2008
Fishon,
I am all for us preaching Bible “as we find it” It is when we run the Scriptures through our particular ideological or cultural lens that we get in trouble.
I certainly believe the Bible speaks to the issues of abortion and homosexuality. But I also believe it seapks to the issues of peace, justice, war, poverty, etc. It seems that much of Evangelicalism is focused on just 2 issues.
It is for this reason that the Republican party and the Religious-Right lost people like me. Dobson wants to rail about abortion and homosexuality but he thinks issues concerning the environment should be left alone.
When Evangelicals became the whore of the Republican party they lost their moral authority. You can’t serve Bush and God too. Choose.
Dobson is a big part of the problem. He is narrow minded and dogmatic about certain things. He disparages those he opposes. He adamantly opposed John McCain until he chose Sarah Palin. The internet is filled with reports of Dobson’e pronouncements about liberal, democrats, etc.
So…....preach the Book in context and leave the personal opinions and politics out of it…....and that’ll work for me http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
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