Monday Morning Insights

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    Will the Church Embrace/Condone Gays and Lesbians in the Near Future?

    Will the Church Embrace/Condone Gays and Lesbians in the Near Future?

    Take a look at this video and let me know what you think.  This guy is talking about the changes in the Pentecostal church in Australia, but I think it's pertinent to the church in the US as well.


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    1. Mark on Mon, January 11, 2010

      What power and money are at stake for Evangelicals?  Actually it is the other way around (see the Lutherans, the Methodist Church and the Episcopal churches).  They have lost a great deal of money and power.

      As to the people listed by Brandon— has anybody in this thread heard of these people?

    2. Carl Lodico on Mon, January 11, 2010

      Thanks Peter. 

      Standing in the shadow of the cross with you…

    3. Brandon Mouser on Mon, January 11, 2010

      @Mark. Not sure what you mean. Evangelicals are heavily invested in the anti-gay movement. If your reference to Lutheran’s, Methodist’s, and Episcopal’s loss of money and power is connected to their acceptance and affirmation of homosexuals, then you’ve made my point. They’ve lost incredible amounts of power and money (which, ultimately, I deem to be an incredible blessing) due to their support of these brothers and sisters.

      @Carl Lodico. Very well put.

      To all. Great conversation today. Thanks to Todd for posting the question. It’s definitely a conversation that needs to be had in increasing frequency. I’m out.

    4. CS on Mon, January 11, 2010


      “For the record, I believe in the infallibility of God, but not an incomplete collection of letters and oral accounts of history, though surely they were inspired.”

      Yes, or no: Is the Bible and inerrant and infallible?


      “As to the people listed by Brandon— has anybody in this thread heard of these people?”

      I have heard of the Most Rev. Katharine Jefferts Schori.  She’s a heretic who preaches a number of doctrines that run contrary to Scripture.


    5. Mark on Mon, January 11, 2010

      Again, I ask you, Brandon, what power and money are to be gained for Evangelicals?  How much money and power are they making and who is making it?  You made the accusation, prove it!

      All I see is money being spent by Evangelical churches to stand up for their convictions and to prevent their Biblical values from being eroded in society.  And I see sincere people who believe the Bible is literally true being malaligned as “homophobic” and so many other slurs.  In California during the Prop 8 campaign, evangelicals gave millions of dollars to make their voice heard.  There were many stories of assaults, attacks, hate email, hate mail, and personal endangerment against Evangelicals in the aftermath of Prop 8.  There is no power to be gained from standing against a debased culture.  Your logic is spurious at best.

      And guess what?  It just might be that these Evangelicals are passionate about the Bible, their Lord Jesus, and righteous living.  Their stand is costing them money and power.  Your point is erroneous.

      Also, you promised “scholars.”  Not one of those names you gave is a “scholar” with academic credentials or a teaching post in a Evangelical seminary.  The Jeffers name is the one who has succeeded in dividing the Episcipal Church and the exodus of hundreds of churches.  She is an adminstrator and not an exegete.  The other names are obscure and unknowns.  You gave us baloney, Brandon!

    6. Brandon Mouser on Tue, January 12, 2010

      @Mark. I’ll answer this and then I’ll be done with the conversation. It’s not going anywhere but downhill.

      I’m not talking about the money and power to be gained by Evangelical communities. They have that. No question. Most of the mega-churches in this country are mainline-evangelicals. Unfortunately, I don’t have their independently audited financials to prove how much money each community possesses, in case you might ask for that proof as well.

      I was referring to money and power lost by supporting and affirming our GL brothers and sisters. An entire empire has been created around anti-gay sentiment. If the Evangelical community, at large, embraced this doctrine, it would be catastrophic to their empire.

      And just because someone spends money to stand-up for their convictions, doesn’t make their convictions anymore right. Constantine stood-up for his ‘christian convictions’ with the sword; didn’t make him right for doing it.

      Why does it matter if ‘biblical values’ are eroded from society? Biblical values have no place in the greater society if they’re achieved through force and oppression.

      As a heterosexual man (I assume, hopefully correctly), are you some how emasculated by a homosexual marriage? Does that threaten your heterosexuality in some manner? Is your salvation nullified by the actions of another?

      And you’re whining about evangelicals getting hate mail. Seriously? Homosexuals are routinely ostracized, oppressed, abused, and in some cases killed because of how they are. That you would even draw comparison between hate mail to evangelicals and the systematic oppression of an entire people is absolutely ludicrous. And my logic is spurious? Come one Mark.

      Note: In the above comment, I’m not condoning the actions against Evangelicals. They were/are wrong, but surely you can appreciate how emotionally charged this topic is. Here we’ve got a group of religious people who enjoy certain government given rights and freedoms that are being flaunted in the faces of a religiously and socially oppressed people.

      I completely agree with you in that Evangelicals are “passionate about the Bible, their Lord Jesus, and righteous living.” Passion is good, but possessing passion doesn’t make a person or group of people right. Many times, it make them dangerous.

      Regarding the scholars: What? Did you think I was going to provide you with a name like John MacArthur? Luke Timothy Johnson, for one, is the R. W. Woodruff Professor of New Testament and Christian Origins at Candler School of Theology and a Senior Fellow at the Center for the Study of Law and Religion at Emory University.

      I told you before I posted the list that I doubted that would make a difference. And I find it interesting that you dismissed ALL of them after about 30 minutes. Dr. Johnson’s work alone would take years to read, let alone the additional time taken to comprehend.

      But I guess the adage is true: What you look for you will find.

      @CS: No.

      Seriously though, guys. It’s been real. This conversation has become less than productive and as Peter said, no one is changing anyone’s mind here, though that was never my intent. Have a good night. Cheers.

    7. Malcolm on Tue, January 12, 2010

      Having known Anthony personally when he was calling himself Tony, and for years before the almost 20 years since he choose to come clean to family and our denomination about the conflicts in his personal life. The actions, background story, and motivations of all parties are complex and private.


      I disagree with Anthony’s relativity argument that agreeing with the GLBT lifestyle is the same as you can now dance, go to movies, be responsible in the consumption of alcohol, women in leadership, etc, change of mind that has happened within Australian Pentecostal churches.

      Australian Pentecostals have and will continue to be happy to embrace the personality of Anthony while disagreeing with the theology of Anthony.

    8. Mark on Tue, January 12, 2010

      Brandon, you are not telling the truth.  You did say there was money and power to be gained by the Evangelicals.  Here is what you said a dozen or posts back: ” There is far too much money and power at stake.”  You did say that! 

      And since when did professors of philosoply become authorities on Biblical exegesis?  Since when did Candler School of Theology become Evangelical.  Several of your “scholars” do not hold to the Bible’s accuracy so how can these people give unbiased opinions on Bible?  If they don’ t believe it is God’s word in the first place, what kind of opinion will they give but a jaundiced one.  Their opinions are non sequitur.  So your premise is still false, Brandon.  There are no reputable “scholars” who hold to your view.

      Now if you want to argue that Brandon thinks homosexuality is not a sin, that might be accurate.  But if you want to assert that the Bible says unrepentant homosexuality is not a sin, that is false.  1 Corinthians 6:9-10 speaks to unrepentant sins in general and to homosexualtty in specific.  Homosexuality is sin, just like a whole host of other things.  And regardless of our sin, the Bible teaches that we are to repent, i.e. to leave the sin and live in newness of life.  And God does not consider homosexuality a small thing.  Jude 1:7 says that perversion (homosexuality)  is main reason that God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah! 

      Brandon, if you are going to stand in the shadow of that cross, you need to stand on the Bible that teaches about that cross.  If you believe one, then to be consistant you have to believe the other.  Otherwise you are creating a god and a Bible in your own image.

    9. jac1962 on Tue, January 12, 2010

      I think these posts answer Todd’s question better than the video.

    10. fishon/jerry on Tue, January 12, 2010

      Brandon Mosuer on Mon, January 11, 2010
      @radicalron1963: I don�t think that�s the issue here. The conversation we�re in would not be happening if it were as clear as some insist; and maybe it is clear to them.
      ——————-The Bible is CLEAR——-God hates divorce, but over 50% of Christians divorce. So the practice of doing or not doing what God clearly declares He hates is not the issue. The issue is willful disobedience to God’s clear teaching whether it by divorce or the practice of homosexuality. Brandon, you arguement does not stand up.

    11. Oliver on Tue, January 12, 2010

      Brandon, don’t get discouraged, I think you may be changing minds, you never know, either way, I give you high marks for intelligent, thoughtful and biblical response.  Firs,there is an amazing amount of hypocracy in many of these evangelical churches who hop and holler about queers in the church while they tolerate all sorts of other sins including gluttlony, pride, and affairs.  We need only to look at brother Ted to see what is really behind the anti-gay fervor.  Why not look at the wwjd standard?  Do you know what Christ would do? He would be marching with at the local queer parade!  and guess who would be chiding him about the bible?  the religious.  I do think more and more evangelical churches will turn eventually to accepting homosexuals as members as illustrated by Highland in Co and even the Assembly of God.  Keep up the fight!

    12. Oliver on Tue, January 12, 2010

      one other point on the actual exegesis, often people don’t understand that the bible was written thousands of years ago, people didn’t understand homosexuality, much of the references in the bible to it discourage it as have most cultures.  we are learning more about homosexuality including the fact that dna, genes play a role.  People are born gay and don’t choose the lifestyle.  Many have had personal struggles to over come it because it part of who they are.  Its not a substance like alcohal that become addicting.  So, accepting GL is about accpeting people for who they are.  That is where the christian message comes it, at one time, blacks, women, and others were accepted by the overwhelming white males that ran america, soon, I think women, minorities and GL will have more say, and then things will really change.  What will make that change is when people realize that we are called to love and accept people for who they are.  Sin is the judgemental nature of people who reject GL community for the sake of their own power and prestige.

    13. Peter Hamm on Tue, January 12, 2010


      you are right that many Christians turn a blind eye to other, even more serious sin than homosexuality. But we don’t all!

      Jesus, marching in a parade celebrating a lifestyle his Father abhors? Uh… no…

      And… Sorry, but your last post lost me. Homosexuality has been around a long time, we’re not new to it and it’s not new to us… and last I heard, there is no DNA evidence, only theory. I’ve known (well) a handful of gay people in my life, and to a man even they believe that they were not “born that way”.

    14. Fred on Tue, January 12, 2010

      The church can thank people like Ted Haggard for that.

    15. Anonymous� on Tue, January 12, 2010

      Homosexuality is socially destructive, contrary to nature and, more importantly, contrary to the law of God. It is wrong in every way, and decent people should not have to hide that fact. To pretend that evil has become good does not change the fact or render the evil any less wicked. It is not that we are afraid of homosexuality (“homophobia”), but we do not apologize for being opposed to it.
      The prophet Isaiah and the apostle Paul both warned of the days to come in which evil would be paraded as good and good as evil. That day has come: the ethical ideals of our society have become so warped that moral vice is openly defended against virtue.
      Holiness before God is our goal—not acceptance by sinners.
      Is not homosexuality an abomination against the holiness of God? Did God get in wrong when He created man and women? Did God get it wrong when He gave Eve to be Adam�s wife? Did not God destroy Sodom and Gomorrah because of their unrepented sinfulness?
      What happened to 2 Corinthians 5:17 �Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold all things are become new�
      What about Romans 12:1 �I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing to God, which is your reasonable service�
      What about Romans 1:24-28 �Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient.�

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