JM on Emergent: “Let’s light some candles and incense and think good thoughts abou
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Thu, September 20, 2007
- Viewed 107
- (85) comments so far
In the article, John talks about the emergent church, and gives a synopsis of the health of the church today…
On the Emergent Church: “They are saying, in effect, that God may have spoken, but He mumbled, and we’re not really sure what He said. Saying that Scripture is not clear is just another way to undermine biblical authority.”
“This is not an intellectual movement. This is not a movement that has discovered evidence that overturns inspiration, evidence that overturns inerrancy or authority. This is a movement born of people who do not want to accept the clarity of Scripture.”
“To claim that the Bible is not sufficiently clear is to assault God’s own wisdom and integrity.”
“It allows them not to take a position on homosexuality, premarital sex, or anything, besides ‘Let’s light some candles and incense, think good thoughts about Jesus, and give to the poor.’”
(I am not a fan of all in the emergent movement… and some of it makes me uncomfortable. But clustering everyone into one big pile of candle-lighting, poor-giving, think good thoughts about Jesus, homosexual loving, anything goes advocates is more than just a little wrong. Some in the emerging movement are pretty dag gone conservative theologically. But many tackle culture a tad differently than JM does. And for that, he lumps them in with the most liberal of the emergents.)
“The assault has never stopped since the Garden...it just escalates and escalates and escalates. It takes different forms and moves in whatever direction the mood of the mob—the spirit of the age—dictates.”
“All the great heroes of the faith end up becoming fools. And the antiheroes—the fools who compromise and who don’t take a stand—become the heroes...It’s turning history on its head. They undo the Reformation so they can go back to a quasi-Christian, medieval spirituality.”
The church today is “quite possibly more susceptible to false teachers, doctrinal saboteurs, and spiritual terrorism than any other generation in church history. Biblical ignorance within the church may well be deeper and more widespread than any other time since the Protestant Reformation.”
(just for the record… I love the words he uses: what is a quasi-christian, what is medieval spirituality, what’s a doctrinal saboteur, and is the term ‘spiritual terrorism’ a new term he’s coining?)
With the seeker sensitive movement “You end up with a very, very marginally knowledgeable church, largely made up of unconverted people.”
“I hear pastors say to me, ‘Oh, I believe the Word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword,’ and I say, ‘It’s good that you say that, but when I hear you preach, you tell a bunch of stories and a bunch of cultural insights. You think your own inventions have more power than the Word of God?’”
From Answers Magazine.
Interesting article. I’m sorry… gotta go. I’m having some of my gay brothers over so we can sniff candles and think nice thoughts about Jesus. Then we’re running down to the bar to do our Bible study. We’re studying the three verses in John that we still find acceptable according to our cultural interpretation. Anyone care to join us?
Todd
(Sorry… sometimes I get in a sarcastic mood, and it gets the best of me.) For the record, I think John MacArthur is a good guy; and I think he’s sincere in his teaching. I just think he’s a little wrong many times. And I’m sure he’d share the same feeling about me (except, maybe, about me being a good guy).
Here are some great quotes from John MacArthur from a recent edition of Answers magazine. Great quotes, not because I agree with them... most I do not. They are harsh and many times over reactive, in my opinion. John's radio program is called Grace to You; but sometimes it appears that that grace is only bestowed on you if you believe exactly as he does. Kind of reminds me of the soup nazi on the old Seinfeld episode. (Seinfeld, for all you MacArthurites, was a popular hit show in the American culture in the 1980s.) His line was... "No Soup for You." Well, if you're a pastor who's reading MMI, it quite possibly could read, "No Grace for You."
Comments
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Derek on Thu, September 20, 2007
Andy,
Mostly everything I have read from JM has some merit to it and that is the problem. Some merit gives him credibility to make some judgments, but his judgments come of a complete. There has got to be a more palatable way for him to communicate what he sees as dangers int he church. That is why he is compared to the Soup Nazi. The SN (like JM) had an unkind way of simply dismissing people.
My question is this—Does John want to correct or condemn? Too much of it sounds like condemnation which should be saved for Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses not for charismatic, church growth guys and emergent-types.
I am not a fan of anyone’s “Study Bible.” Let’s keep the Bible “Holy” and keep study notes out. Schofield did a horrible job of propagating pre-mill eschatology and dispensational theology…the later of which was harmful to the church IMHO.
I like John’s hair BTW and he always looks sharp in a suit. http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/grin.gif
Derek
Shane Montgomery on Thu, September 20, 2007
WOW - Todd…man…I love you! But you still can’t have my beer!
Shane Montgomery on Thu, September 20, 2007
Dude - I just noticed…I am so anti-vest - Jesus never wore vest and I have seen vest on evil people with loose morals in the media - I know that Anchorman (a film I only saw on an airplane once with one eye shut) the main character often had a vest on… man, everyone who wears vest is a pawn of the devil (looks at picture of Johnny Mac) uh…welll…uh…hmmmmmm
New hair again on Thu, September 20, 2007
This is what needles me, Andy comes on here and acts as if a little joke is mean spirited. I will put hair jokes aside for now…
If Andy needs to defend John in this forum then it really comes across as rather thin skinned to me. John has slammed just about anyone who disagrees with his view of Theology and the Bible. He paints with a very broad brush and he is sarcastic oftentimes. yet i was being a little sarcastic and Andy feels a little hurt by it. Atleast I did not say that John is burning incense and feeling God. Now that would have been really sarcastic.
He is contentious and he likes to scrap, those are the facts. When I see John on the news he rarely looks happy, joyful or loving. He appears to be the exact opposite infact. He is condescending, its like watching Elijah with the prophets of Baal.
I do disagree completely with anyone who has their name printed above the Holy Scripture on their own Bible. John feels that this is justified by the sales of His Bible but I find it to be prideful to say the least. I think that pride is a big motivation behind Johns need to always be right…Atleast that is my opinion.
One more thing- It may be His hair but it did not grow there by itself.
Andy McAdams on Thu, September 20, 2007
Honestly I think John wants to correct…and yet I admit he comes across as condemning at times. I also agree that he needs a better way to communicate. I also would think that if you asked him, he would say the same thing.
Years ago when I spoke about going into the ministry, it was John Mac that sat with me and personally encouraged me in my quest. The thing was, he hardly even knew me.
I suppose that if you think that “Schofield did a horrible job of propagating pre-mill eschatology and dispensational theology…the later of which was harmful to the church” would depend on where you are theologically.
BTW…New Hair (if that’s your name, lol), I am far from thin skinned, after all I’ve been a pastor for 30 years and to survive that you have to have think skin. I just feel that sometimes the things that we say about someone can and often are taken wrongly and can be a little dig. Admit it…it was in fact that. We seldom say those things about people that we are in agreement with.
It seems to me that when someone has their name on things that those of us that have not made significant accomplishments in biblical scholarship find it prideful. Yet, throughout the ages this sort thing has taken place. Who finds it wrong that the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association was so named? Or the Moody Memorial Church and MBI? I’m sure there are a number of other examples.
I understood the Soup Nazi comment, it’s just that John takes a lot of shots on MMI, and yet…no praise for what he has done and that title just gave one more opportunity.
Todd Rhoades on Thu, September 20, 2007
Agreed, Andy. My only response would be that there have been numerous comments here saying that John’s an ok guy. I think most of us think he’s sincere in his beliefs and hes got a list of accomplishments a mile long. But you won’t hear him saying that about any of us here… because we’re too busy creating a “ very, very marginally knowledgeable church, largely made up of unconverted people.”
See my point?
So… the question. Does he really feel that pastors (like many who are reading this here at MMI) are really spinning our wheels and that most of our ‘converts’ are really unregenerate? Or is he just using strong language to make his point.
What’s his real take when 900+ people ‘accept Christ’ and are ‘baptized’ at New Spring and Granger in one weekend?
Are people like Perry and Mark, who “tell a bunch of stories and a bunch of cultural insights’ and ‘who think their own inventions have more power than the Word of God” making real converts? Or are they part of the pastors who ‘undo the Reformation so they can go back to a quasi-Christian, medieval spirituality?’
I think that’s the real question. Does John really think that these people are lost?
It sure sounds like it.
And that, Andy, is why so many people are defensive… because John is saying, pretty much: “You don’t have it right… your converts aren’t real… and you’re doing more to damage the cross of Christ that many other evils in this world.”
Just some later night thoughts…
Todd
Todd
Andy McAdams on Thu, September 20, 2007
Well, I don’t agree with John’s comments and most of those that John may take aim at don’t deserve it. BTW…I tell stories, and make cultural insights, but I teach also. John mostly teaches…it’s his style and those comments made by him are in most cases in my opinion, not correct.
There are a lot of preachers in the Kingdom that I don’t agree with…however I won’t make comments that may be little digs that may seem to reflect on their character.
Finally, I think what you’re doing here Todd is of great value on MMI and I’m sure that many of those that are reading this are also. We al have our part in this job of fulfilling The Great Commission.
A great man once said, “the Christian Army is the only army that takes shots at their own soldiers.” I refuse to do it and it pains me when others do. Period.
Mark Knoll on Fri, September 21, 2007
One thing Andy got right, you have to have “think” skin if you are going to pastor…
Andy McAdams on Fri, September 21, 2007
Hey Mark,
I’ll bet you look for typos in the church bulletin and make sure you point those out too…right?
New hair one more time on Fri, September 21, 2007
Andy,
Thanks for your humble reply. I can see that you love John and care for him deeply. I work for a mega church, much bigger than Johns…and my pastor has been dive bombed by John on more than one occasion.
Heres the deal, John and other men like him who make heavy handed pronouncements about other men of God are doing a dis-service for the body of Christ.
In Pauls letter to to Philippi he goes as far to say that some preach Christ out of selfish ambition…Yet Paul is gracious with these men by saying that Christ is still preached.
My problem with John is that He treats everything that he disagrees with as if they were Evil workers, not just men that he disagrees with. Paul did not do that, he called a spade a spade but He was never caustic or lacking grace.
Andy, my father raised me in a Macarthur style church, he was a dyed in the wool Johnny fan but even my Godly father cannot watch John on the news anymore because of Johns disposition. John looks like he alone is right, it is sure and simple pride. As long as His followers continue to tell him that he is right he will continue on but someone close to Him needs to tell him to speak the truth in love…and love should be demonstrated with a smile and care on national television…
Hey just a thought…
MG on Fri, September 21, 2007
Wow Andy nice flip flop, ever consider becoming a politician? BTW, did you even read, and consider the veracity of John’s comments posted above? What’s NOT to agree with? The attack on the perspicuity of Scripture is widespread and pervasive in the church with many claiming to have “Beliefs” that sound okay and right, yet to hear the message from the pulpits you would be left to wonder if they have ever read their own Beliefs statement from their website because they run from the Truth or are embarrassed by the words of Christ in their teachings.Now we have people saying his disposition on television is difficult to watch, come on guys, can’t you even see how vicious your attack here has become and how self-centered is the focus of it? Not that I really expected more from MMI, just that I would expect more from those who profess the name of Christ as their Lord and Savior.My humble thoughts on the thread…
Please give me new hair on Fri, September 21, 2007
MG- wow I havent been called viscious in a while!!! Thanks!
The point is this- Macarthur is sarcastic, he goes after people like Mark Driscoll in print but won’t talk to him in person beforehand…Macarthur is the one who is breaking the rules of grace here…Not me.
Just because someone is “right” theologically doesnt mean that they are right in the Lords eyes and John needs to handle that. He is a critic and a sarcastic condescending one at that! Am i viscious for pointing that out? is John above criticism now?
Todd Rhoades on Fri, September 21, 2007
MG writes:
“Not that I really expected more from MMI, just that I would expect more from those who profess the name of Christ as their Lord and Savior.”
I know it’s hard to believe MG; but there are people who read mmi AND profess the name of Christ. It’s not an either/or proposition.
Thanks for pointing out our duplicity though (in all your humbleness).
Todd
MG on Fri, September 21, 2007
Todd and Please, does this sound similar to the messages you hear?http://media10.sa-media.com:8000/sermons101/915072016593.wmv
Small reminder, Jesus Himself said, “I did not come to bring peace, but a sword”, “For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; and A MAN’S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD. as well as “If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.”
Truth divides but at the end of the day I would suggest all consider the end result laid out in 2 Thess. 2:10 wherein Paul says the following:
those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
Enjoy.
Peter Hamm on Fri, September 21, 2007
MG,
What in the world does that have to do with the discussion. It is true that Macarthur has lambasted some Christian leaders publicly who he has not spoken with privately. The question is, is that biblical or right?
It is also true that he has lumped pretty much all emergents together into one heretical category. Is that biblical or right?
I don’t think so.
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