Monday Morning Insights

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    JM on Emergent:  “Let’s light some candles and incense and think good thoughts abou

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    In the article, John talks about the emergent church, and gives a synopsis of the health of the church today…

    On the Emergent Church:  “They are saying, in effect, that God may have spoken, but He mumbled, and we’re not really sure what He said. Saying that Scripture is not clear is just another way to undermine biblical authority.”

    “This is not an intellectual movement. This is not a movement that has discovered evidence that overturns inspiration, evidence that overturns inerrancy or authority. This is a movement born of people who do not want to accept the clarity of Scripture.”

    “To claim that the Bible is not sufficiently clear is to assault God’s own wisdom and integrity.”

    “It allows them not to take a position on homosexuality, premarital sex, or anything, besides ‘Let’s light some candles and incense, think good thoughts about Jesus, and give to the poor.’”

    (I am not a fan of all in the emergent movement… and some of it makes me uncomfortable.  But clustering everyone into one big pile of candle-lighting, poor-giving, think good thoughts about Jesus, homosexual loving, anything goes advocates is more than just a little wrong. Some in the emerging movement are pretty dag gone conservative theologically.  But many tackle culture a tad differently than JM does.  And for that, he lumps them in with the most liberal of the emergents.)

    “The assault has never stopped since the Garden...it just escalates and escalates and escalates. It takes different forms and moves in whatever direction the mood of the mob—the spirit of the age—dictates.”

    “All the great heroes of the faith end up becoming fools. And the antiheroes—the fools who compromise and who don’t take a stand—become the heroes...It’s turning history on its head.  They undo the Reformation so they can go back to a quasi-Christian, medieval spirituality.”

    The church today is “quite possibly more susceptible to false teachers, doctrinal saboteurs, and spiritual terrorism than any other generation in church history. Biblical ignorance within the church may well be deeper and more widespread than any other time since the Protestant Reformation.”

    (just for the record… I love the words he uses:  what is a quasi-christian, what is medieval spirituality, what’s a doctrinal saboteur, and is the term ‘spiritual terrorism’ a new term he’s coining?)

    With the seeker sensitive movement “You end up with a very, very marginally knowledgeable church, largely made up of unconverted people.”

    “I hear pastors say to me, ‘Oh, I believe the Word of God is sharper than any two-edged sword,’ and I say, ‘It’s good that you say that, but when I hear you preach, you tell a bunch of stories and a bunch of cultural insights. You think your own inventions have more power than the Word of God?’”

    From Answers Magazine.

    Interesting article.  I’m sorry… gotta go.  I’m having some of my gay brothers over so we can sniff candles and think nice thoughts about Jesus.  Then we’re running down to the bar to do our Bible study.  We’re studying the three verses in John that we still find acceptable according to our cultural interpretation.  Anyone care to join us?

    Todd

    (Sorry… sometimes I get in a sarcastic mood, and it gets the best of me.) For the record, I think John MacArthur is a good guy; and I think he’s sincere in his teaching.  I just think he’s a little wrong many times.  And I’m sure he’d share the same feeling about me (except, maybe, about me being a good guy).

    Here are some great quotes from John MacArthur from a recent edition of Answers magazine. Great quotes, not because I agree with them... most I do not. They are harsh and many times over reactive, in my opinion. John's radio program is called Grace to You; but sometimes it appears that that grace is only bestowed on you if you believe exactly as he does. Kind of reminds me of the soup nazi on the old Seinfeld episode. (Seinfeld, for all you MacArthurites, was a popular hit show in the American culture in the 1980s.) His line was... "No Soup for You." Well, if you're a pastor who's reading MMI, it quite possibly could read, "No Grace for You."

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    1. Wendi on Thu, September 27, 2007

      Leonard and others, it looks like MG has been silent since his post on Tuesday night referring us to the YouTube MacArthur/Padgitt CNN interview about Yoga.  What prompted the “I will not engage with him further” comment?


      I just watched the video.  I do wish that Padgitt had responded more directly to the interviewer’s questions about the Webster’s definition of Yoga.  I think he missed an opportunity here . . . But I think JM’s response, and MG’s question about “which one shares the gospel” explains part of the problem.  For JM, MG and so many others, a Christian leader (if he is a biblical leader) must use every single public opportunity to spell out the key points of “the gospel”:


      o   Most of you listening are depraved sinners, separated from God and headed straight for hell when you die.


      o   A penalty must be paid for your terrible sinfulness.


      o   Jesus, the perfect God/man, paid the penalty, and if you know what’s good for you, you’ll accept that payment.


      o   Because its the only way you can get a ticket to heaven when you die.  If not . . . well it sucks to be you


      (that was me describing of how I personally feel inside when I hear “the gospel” presented by JM).


      First, how sad to reduce the beauty and mystery of “The Gospel” into a sound bite (as if it could be reduced so.)  Second, how sad (and disrespectful sometimes) to sense the need use every opportunity one has to speak publicly as a chance to get “the gospel” in.  If I make sure I’ve told people that they’re headed straight for hell, then I can go home and sleep better at night.


      So I know that I really started the fight with MG, but that was because I knew my home boys had my back.  And I think you are right Leonard, you showed some egalitarian leanings standing by and watching me “fight authoritatively.”


      Wendi

    2. Brian on Thu, September 27, 2007

      Wendi,


      while I agree that there is a “softer approach” that could be used to sharing the Gospel, the “sound bite” approach is actually not as ridiculous as you might think. Jesus, Peter and Paul all have what I would call “sound bite” summaries of the Gospel such as “repent, and be healed”, “believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved”, “all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved”...etc… etc…


      You need to read the biographies of the great evangelists. Moody, Billy Sunday, Whitfield, etc…  I’m not talking about their public ministry - but their personal accounts of their own private lives and dealings with people… it is humbling. They all understood and were gripped by the reality of hell. They were motivated by, and very concerned that people were going to spend an eternity separated from God in torment and eternal punishment. It should drive all of us to our knees asking for opportunties to share the good news…


      I know what you are trying to say Wendi, but unfortunately, and I’m not necessarily endorsing J Mac… but I’m going to say I would rather err in making myself a fool for the Gospel, rather than try to be cool and stay silent


      Too many Christians, especially pastors these days, fail to have a passion for the Lost…


      I enjoy the posts… thanks for the dialogue.


      May God give us all an opportunity to talk about Jesus tomorrow…

    3. Leonard on Thu, September 27, 2007

      Wendi, what prompted my refusal to cease engaging with MG was his tone and his refusal to dialog.  He was very quick to shoot, condemn and chastise but would not respond to questions.  I also sent 4 e-mails without response.  His goal was not dialog and exchange.  I love to exchange ideas, in doing so I grow and am forced to examine my theology and heart.  MG’s approach is for the most part offensive.  So I am done responding with him unless he wants to come in and apologize for the rudeness.

    4. Melody on Thu, September 27, 2007

      You know, I used to be embarassed by those street preachers who handed out Chick tracts and screamed, “Repent!”  And, frankly, to this day can’t see myself participating in this.   My witnessing style is more relational.


      But I’ve lived long enough to have met a few people who heard the gospel and were saved through encounters with these “crazy preachers.” 


      I’ve met and known a number of former Catholics who attribute one of my least favorite books, _A Woman Rides the Beast_ by Dave Hunt to having opened their eyes to their need to trust the Lord rather than their baptism and sacraments.


      I was a believer when I read John MacArthur’s book, “The Gospel According to Jesus” when it was first released, and can testify that God used that plainspoken teaching to give me the kick in the backside I needed to move from a carnal, superficial belief to an active, productive faith.


      I think that God gives different preparations and gifts to different people because there is a need for more than one approach.


      Dr. Robert Lightner often speaks of the “parallel truths” of grace and personal responsibility relative to salvation.  (Remember the definition of parallel lines:  they stretch to infinity without intersecting.)  This is so true, so in that connect, I suspect that the tension between those who emphasize grace and those who emphasize personal responsibility have the potential to keep the church more closely to the path God has intended.  That is, if both sides are able to set aside personal feelings and pride and consider the truth in what the other side has to say.


      I’ve been following this thread all week, and as an outsider have to say that neither the pot nor the kettle has much to stand before God with pride about.

    5. Wendi on Thu, September 27, 2007

      Brian (not Brian La Croix) – I don’t think that communicating “sound bite” elements of the gospel is ridiculous.  In fact, I agree with sometimes using succinct “sound bite” explanations of the key gospel elements (I work for YFC, that’s what we do).  It’s just important to remember that these “sound bites” do not represent the complete gospel message (hardly so).  What is disagree with most though, is feeling that every time we have an audience we must do so.  If we rant about hell every time we are granted the opportunity to speak, we unfortunately (IMO) can send people reeling toward it instead of accomplishing the goal of drawing people toward the cross (evidenced by the off-camera conversation between Padgitt and the news woman).  Jesus didn’t use threats of hell every time he encountered people, and neither should we.


      And just to clarify my own words, I never suggested we stay silent in order to “be cool.”


      Melody – thanks for chiming in, and for reading and tolerating our ranting.  I totally agree with Lightenger’s concept of parallel truths.  This works especially because the Truth (capital T) transcends both parallel lines.  However, I don’t think that those of us who have taken issue with JM (and his follower MG) are criticizing his “personal truth” or his theology, but rather his method of communicating his paradigm to and among fellow believers.  Is this an area where you say “anything goes?” 


      Not sure whether you’d place my comments in the pot or the kettle, but I certainly do know how easily my pride influences my opinions and comments.  I appreciate the reminder to check the mirror for elements of pride.


      Wendi

    6. MG on Sun, September 30, 2007

      Let me start off by saying to Leonard thank you for taking the time to have the discussion and to share your thoughts with me in a gracious and respectful manner, it far exceeded the amount of time I’d expected but it was, I hope and believe to have been, a time of increased understanding of the person behind the moniker MG. That being said I’d like to take the time to apologize and to ask you all, especially Todd, to forgive me for what I am about to share. I haven’t been honest about my identity, which shouldn’t be surprising on the internet, but that is no excuse for what I’ve done. I was formerly known to MMI and Todd as John3:36 and I’m pretty sure KCBill in previous stints at MMI prior to being banned by Todd from posting after many a disagreement and at times dogfights over issues which, I am ashamed to say, like this one have been lacking in grace and mercy. Quite ironic that though the posts be at times unmerciful and ungracious I could still sign them MG. Anyway, at this time Todd I would fully understand and respect your decision to remove my ability to post as per my previous bannings, but I just wanted an opportunity to clear the air and openly repent and apologize for what I’ve done. I could explain why I thought it was needed but at the same time I am quite assured of God’s Sovereignty thus I will trust in His ability to take care of areas I might feel need addressing here. I would just like to share that. As I step out of this forum I would simply pray and ask that we all take the time to examine our words, actions and the intentions of our hearts and in all we do, do it as unto the Lord, that in all we write we exalt His Holy Name. Once again, I am sorry for the deception and aggressive and antagonistic approach at times, may the peace of God reign abundantly in our hearts and out of that joy may we never fail in having that love of the truth which is abundant to save. (2 Thes. 2:10) In His Mercy, Bill Burke My home in the blogosphere: http://burke.urbanreformer.com/

    7. Leonard on Sun, September 30, 2007

      MG, thanks for this and for the conversation.  I appreciate your passion, thanks for a contrite heart.  I prayed for you today, that Mercy and Grace would surround your celebration and worship of God

    8. Wendi on Sun, September 30, 2007

      MG – Ahhh.  Much makes sense now.  We have sparred many times before here on MMI.  Thanks you for your graceful apology. 


      It seems to me, from the tone of your last post, that you want to engage in discussions on issues about which you have much passion, but that sometimes you passion has gotten the best of you and led you to say things you’ve later regretted.  That is something to which most of us can relate (at least this blogger can).  To that end, I hope you’ll change your mind (and Todd would allow you) to stick around.  MMI is a place where we learn, not only from the ideas, innovations and information provided by Todd, but also from one another.  I believe I am a better person and minister because MMI provides me with a forum where I can learn how to express strongly held or emotionally charged opinions.  More than once I’ve been better able to engage in real life discussions about a potentially contentious issue because of a dialogue I participated in or even just enjoyed reading here on MMI. 


      And so, if you come to learn as well as share thoughts and experiences (and you last post seems to indicate), then I hope you’ll stay and jump into the fray regularly.


      God bless you – Wendi

    9. Peter Hamm on Sun, September 30, 2007

      MG,


      Indeed, with that attitude, I hope you DO stick around… Even if we do indeed disagree (although I suspect on less theologically than either might guess).


      Blessings to you!


      Peter

    10. Daniel on Mon, October 01, 2007

      Peace to you MG. 


      Thank you for your apology.  Clearly one cannot speak for all, but I would say your apology is accepted.


      If certain forums are known to rile you up in ways which you know are not merciful and graceful, perhaps as a personal discipline you should avoid them.  I say this as a gentle qualifier to Wendi and Peter’s remarks—the goal is that we would all grow in our knowledge and love of the Lord, and if MMI is a stumbling block for you, then the loving thing for us to do is to ask you to take some time off at least for a time.  We are all called to flee temptation.  Hopefully you know what I mean, and you understand that this comes from me by way of suggestion and nothing more.


      I myself have had to be more aware of what forums I visit and why (and perhaps this can be a reminder to all of us to be aware of how our time online is spent).  Your contrition is an example to follow.


      Peace and blessings,


      -Daniel-

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