John MacArthur on Vulgarity and “Grunge Christianity”
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Thu, March 01, 2007
- Viewed 304
- (94) comments so far
Johnny Mac talks mostly about Mark Driscoll in his article (that you can read in its fullness here)…
I love it when he says “Some of the things Driscoll talks freely and frequently about involve words and subject matter I would prefer not even to mention in public, so I am not going to quote or describe the objectionable parts.”
He then goes on to link to two people who DO quote Driscoll’s, “vulgar flippancy”.
Maybe the title of this post shoulda been “John MacArthur Endorses People Who Link to Vulgar Preachers”.
I’m not saying that John doesn’t make some good points. And I’m not sticking up for ‘cussing preachers’… but…
MacArthur continues: “When Paul spoke to that culture, he didn’t adopt Greek scatology to show off how hip he could be. He simply declared the truth of God’s Word to them in plain language. And not all of his pagan listeners were happy with that (v. 18). That’s to be expected. Jesus said, “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you” (John 15:18-19).”
So, which is it? Did Paul speak the words of the Greek culture (without swearing, of course) or did he use language that didn’t fit the culture and play it safe?
Just a question… I’m assuming here that ‘grunge’ people need Jesus. (I hope I’m correct). Who will better reach them? Mark Driscoll or John MacArthur?
Let’s take it a step further… who IS currently reaching them? Driscoll or MacArthur?
And about the “world hating you” part… I wonder if John has put himself in Mark’s shoes? Driscoll’s had a lot of ‘hate’ showered his way lately by both the Christian and non-Christian community in Seattle.
All I’m saying is… John, man… don’t make me choose. Why does it have to be an either/or? You work at the work God has given you; and let Mark reach the people God hasn’t gifted you in reaching. And if a word slips out here or there, and yet a few more people make it into the Kingdom, I can accept that.
After all, those [expletive deleted] people need Jesus too!
Just my 2 cents…
Todd
I'm nothing if not an instigator. Here's a quote from John MacArthur for you to chew on... "I frankly wonder how any Christian who takes the Bible at face value could ever think that in order to be “culturally relevant” Christians should participate in society’s growing infatuation with vulgarity. Didn’t vulgarity and culture used to be considered polar opposites?"...
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JarsofMe on Thu, March 01, 2007
I admit - I am a big Mark Driscoll fan - primarily because he seems to be the first guy who can marry extensive expository, systematic ministry with cultural and creative relevance. Most guys seem to fall on one side of the fence - he manages to strattle it pretty well.
As for John - this seems to be the latest and greatest of his personal attacks against someone else on “our team.” Seriously, if he would spend half as much time refuting the “gods of the world” as he does picking out his self-described fallacies of other Christian ministers, perhaps he could make some significant advances in our mission to evangelize the world.
It’s almost like the captain of the ship needs to point to the front of the ship and say, “the enemy is out there gentlemen.”
As for the issue at hand - I don’t think Jesus was called a glutton and a drunkard for nothing. Obviously Jesus didn’t sin, but he sure did rub shoulders with a lot of sinners. I wonder if John M. makes it a regular practice of meeting with people who are nothing like him in an effort to “become all things to all people…..to win some?”
Maybe John needs a hug or something.
Josh R on Thu, March 01, 2007
I don’t see Driscoll’s ‘profanity’ so much as a compromise with culture as a rejection of the prudishness of the Church.
The stuff MacArthur would prefer not even to mention in public is exactly what people of Seattle are proudly celebrating and entrenching themselves in. While other conservative preachers are red-faced preaching in code about the depravity around them, Driscoll vividly, directly and harshly preaches against the depravity, so there is no question what he is talking about.
It should also be noted that Driscoll agrees that he goes overboard sometimes, and openly confesses that this is an area where he sins.
A week ago, he talked about this in his sermon. “Do I have my sin that I need to repent of so the Gospel can move forward in Seattle? I do. Sometimes I get angry and burned out and frustrated and I say things that I shouldn’t or I say things that I should in a way that I shouldn’t. A buddy of mine says ‘you are going to die’. I said ‘how is that’? He said ‘death by comment’… A lot of truth to that. I have my own sin to repent of and confess, confess it to you.”
Driscoll isn’t nearly as profane as prime time television. He just talks about the topics that are hot in his community. Those topics are uncomfortable to those who have been raised in a Church and fellowship in the church, and insulate themselves from the rest of society with a protective layer of fish stickers. The unsaved folks are repelled by those fish stickers, and they think church people are downright weird. (Mostly because we are) Driscoll has peeled off all of the fish stickers, and when folks come to his church, he hits them square in their center of their favorite sin with the sledgehammer of the gospel.
Wendi on Thu, March 01, 2007
I have issues with both Driscoll and MacArthur – different issues.
But JM has (IMO) prostituted the platform God has given him far more that a little vulgarity from someone like MD ever could. Driscoll uses his platform, even if I disagree with his methods, to reach people far from God. MacArthur uses his stir up people who are already “found,” incites divisive behavior within the local churches of his loyal followers. Instead of helping his listeners and readers become better equipped to be a kingdom influence, he encourages them to put their pastors under his microscope (if I had a dime for every time JM writes or speaks to his “non-clergy” audience about bad preachers or pastors, I’d be rich.) If he (the pastor) fails the MacArthur test, his loyal fans, now fully equipped with MacArthur weapons of warfare, begin firing. Heaven forbid they should just decide their church isn’t a good fit anymore and leave. No . . . like their hero JM, they are compelled to decry the spiritual ills of their leaders from every hilltop within their church. Their mission? Not to go and make disciples of all nations, but to “bring down” those JM has helped them identify as heretics within their church.
I’m not a prophet, but my bet is that when these guys stand before the master and have to account for how well they have stewarded the riches which had been entrusted to them, one will hear “well done good and faithful servant” and the other might even hear “ you wicked and lazy #?$%&? . . .”
Wendi
Leonard on Thu, March 01, 2007
Wendi,
I always have a hard time figuring out what you are thinking. (smiley face here) Your description of the way people are under the watchful eye of MacDaddy is so true.
About language: I grew up in a home where swearing wasn’t really swearing. No f-bomb and no Lord’s Name in vain stuff the folks would say. Don’t call people swear words but if sh#% fits your need better than another word, use it. At the same time I was in a church that made BigMac look liberal. True but sad: I don’t remember one person ever giving their life to Christ at my church with the exception of the youth or a kid. Oh we asked every week but no one came. Keep in mind this was the early and mid 70’s, but I cannot remember anyone.
The contrast of my church and my home was so weird. It (the church) was a place my dad never felt comfortable. It was a place where my brother never felt comfortable. (comfortable = accepted by God cared for by his people) so both quit going. My brother until his 30’s and my dad until a couple years ago, in his 70’s, had no time for church. Never once did it occur to the leaders of the church that they might be in any way a small part of the problem, no it was those with the “Sin of Rebellion” in their heart.
Fast Forward to my church today. We are not huge by any standard but we are growing and reaching our community. I think it is because we lack a certain conventional reverence and people do not have to step through a time warp to worship Jesus and hear his word. We played a Beatles song the other day and the energy in the room skyrocketed. Same thing happened when we played U2. When we use video, technology, cultural language the people who know Jesus do not have to step through a time warp to worship him. My guess is that if you were to visit Mars Hill you would not walk through a time warp but walk into something that gets its culture. I have been to
J-Mac’s and in order to worship I have to go back in time and reframe myself to 1975. In some places this might be just due to resources but there it is intentional and held as the way it should be. I guess Driscoll won’t be speaking at the “how to do it my way conference SmackMac will be holding this year.
Brad Raby on Thu, March 01, 2007
I was dissapointed as I tracked back through MaCs article to the blogs he ‘recommended’ it thought there were going to be some really bad words…but potty, poop, freaky were about they only words i could pick up one…there was the one story that Mark told about his kid wanting to know if Jesus had a ‘boy part’...It wasn’t all that crazy to me. (I listened to the one on Phil Johnsons Blog)
Johnny Mac has his good and bad…The older he gets the more it does seem that he feels he is the security guard of Orthodox Christianity.
Brian on Thu, March 01, 2007
Leonard,
I’m liking you more and more all the time!
Brian
Wendi on Thu, March 01, 2007
Leonard, I love your definition of comfortable = accepted by God cared for by his people.
So many of the watchdogs, among whom JM is chief, claim that we are watering down the gospel of minimizing sin in order to help people feel comfortable.
But I’m guessing that your brother and father were not “unbelievers” all those years they felt uncomfortable. But look at the cost of keeping things uncomfortable. Many people chuck the church forever, and years without anyone finding Jesus.
So glad that you’ve rewritten the church story of your family of origin.
Wendi
Linda on Thu, March 01, 2007
What does Mc Arthur struggle with, does anyone know? I’d like to read his confessions. Certainly Driscoll needs to make a few changes as WE ALL DO. I admit it’s easier to pray for Driscoll because he lives openly.
One of the best small groups I ever had was probably a small version of Driscolls church. We had a homeless heroin addict, a crack cocaine addict, a professor, recovering alcoholic, attorney, etc. The twenty-five people, myself included had areas that needed change. The language could be crude at times. We came up with a term that set us all at ease. Whenever someone was uncomfortable with what was being said we could say, “OVERSHARE.” That way people had the freedom to say anything and yet we could stop it at any point. Church life is messy and God is looking for a bride without spot or blemish. It’s easy to whitewash a church. Driscoll’s is certainly not that.
TGOT on Thu, March 01, 2007
hey,
good stuff…
mark needs to stop swearing and be a little more holy and set a part from the world…
and john needs to get w/ the times, loss the tie and try to engage the culture in real way…
That Guy Over There
kent on Thu, March 01, 2007
I really do not know much about either one of them. I have not listen to John Mac much intentionlly and I have heard about Mark Dris, not heard him much. They are both people who seem to fill room with their presence. My base and probably the mark thoughts about them are that MacArthur like MacArthur - a lot, and Driscoll seems to be aggressive and knows that is puts people off and enjoys that. It would be fun to have them in the same room and conversing about whatever. I would buy that ticket.
Geoff on Thu, March 01, 2007
MacArthur used his considerable influence to publically castigate a good friend of mine several years ago. My friend has never completely recovered and must still answer to MacArthur’s baseless charges on an almost daily basis. Because of my close association with this friend I also have to spend a great deal of time refuting MacArthur’s claims. If he caused as much damage to the Kingdom of Darkness as he does to the Kingdom of Light MacArthur would be an incredible asset to the church; as it is he’s just a pain in the…
Pastor Al on Thu, March 01, 2007
Geoff,
Wow - I think you said it all.
Blessings on you and your friend,
PA
Linda on Thu, March 01, 2007
Kent,
I’m assuming you already have a ticket. It will be a match made in heaven. I can’t wait till were all together there!!!!!!!!!!!
myPond on Thu, March 01, 2007
one two-word phrase in response to MacArthur’s latest missile about a fellow pastor.
hope it’s not too crude:
OH BROTHER*.
*This phrase always accompanied by eye-roll.
Brian in BC on Thu, March 01, 2007
The first thing that comes to mind is the use of the word “Grunge”...1990 called, they want their word back. “Grunge” has been dead since about 1997 so using the term to discuss someone’s ministry in terms of “cultural relevance” shows that you’re about a decade behind what’s happening out there. I find that we are in a huge battle between Orthodoxy and Orthopraxy. It saddens me that someone like John Macarthur who has his orthodoxy so in-line in so many ways frowns and calls to question the Orthopraxy of another brother in Christ. This is so sad…truly, deeply sad. I find it interesting that over the years while I’ve listened to John Macarthur’s sermons on “Grace to You” I’ve really enjoyed his class and grasp of the Word, but as I’ve jumped onto the Christian “blogosphere” to see what’s happening in ministry around the world, there seems to be such a movement to “living Christ” day to day and within the culture and the world…becoming shining lights and yet it seems that in some circles, everything is about “being right” instead of about “living your faith”. I just don’t see this as what Christ would be applauding. Yes, truth and the gospel are vitally important, but WHAT WE DO WITH IT are also vitally important. If we spend our time telling others why they are wrong, we’ve missed half (at least) the message and are truly only raising up our own self-righteousness.
I keep turning back to the Gospels. Jesus challenged the Pharisees who were so sure of their “rightness” and yet wouldn’t cross the street to help someone in need. I have to wonder if we are not seeing the same thing here…people who spend their entire sermon life outlining right and wrong and yet who never seem to challenge their listeners to reach out to people where they are at with the love of God.
We seem to get the “Great Commission” right and forget “The Great Commandment”.
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