Should An Openly Homosexual Person Be Baptized?
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Thu, May 08, 2008
- Viewed 124
- (37) comments so far
To start off his post, Brian tells this story…
I was posed the following question by two homosexuals jointly raising a child,“Which sin is greater: continuing with the way we choose to live our lives or having one of us move out and ripping apart the only home our son has ever known?”
Here’s what I said…
“Honestly, I don’t know. I’m not God. But even if I did have a strong opinion on the matter, I wouldn’t give it to you. Do you want to know why? Because my hunch is you’re not really looking for an answer as much as you are looking for a reason to leave this church and turn your back on God. Others pastors may have given you reason to do so, but I’m not going to follow suit. You’re here for a reason, and that’s to find your way back to God. Once you do that, He’ll be the one that will help you answer that question.”
Then I hugged them both.
In my mind two more important questions lurked behind the question they asked:
1. Will this pastor guy treat our sin any differently than the other searching non-believers in the Bible study that went home to continue to embezzle money for their employer, look at porn on their computers or abuse prescription drugs?
2. Can I really trust God?
The second question is probably the most important. It’s hard to fathom how hard it is for a struggling homosexual to darken the doors of a church building, let alone contemplate turning their lives over to a deity who is going to ask for radical, painful change. That takes a great leap of faith; probably more than most heterosexual people were required to exercise before they became Christians.
The real issue for me comes down to this: How can we expect any non-believer to truly have a heart for the ways of God BEFORE conversion?
You can read the rest of Brian’s post here as it relates to baptism...
What do you think? Would you agree with Brian’s thoughts or would you tackle this thing totally differently? Let’s hear what you have to say…
I had the opportunity to meet Brian Jones a few weeks ago in Florida. Brian says, on his blog, that he's an 'average guy', but he's writing some great stuff over at BrianJones.com. Recently, he's been doing a series on homosexuality, and in one of his latest posts, he asks the question of whether or not an openly homosexual person should be baptised.
Comments
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Wendi on Thu, May 08, 2008
I really appreciate Pastor Davis’ response, as well as his challenge to those of us who are heterosexual Christians. He says:
[It’s hard to fathom how hard it is for a struggling homosexual to darken the doors of a church building, let alone contemplate turning their lives over to a deity who is going to ask for radical, painful change. That takes a great leap of faith; probably more than most heterosexual people were required to exercise before they became Christians.]
Sometimes we blithely say “sin is sin, all the same in God’s sight” (which I’ve said often), we ignore the all sin isn’t equal in regard to how to escape its bondage. When I became a Christian in high school, I didn’t have to turn my back on much of anything or give up much. I really can’t imagine what it would feel like if deciding to follow Jesus meant breaking up my family and leaving my child. I appreciate pastor Davis calling us to reflect deeply these kind of things, through the filter of scripture of course, and allow our reflection to inform our responses.
Wendi
Andy Wood on Thu, May 08, 2008
I do appreciate how he handled the issue - it has the ring of the way Jesus treated people who were sinners-with-no-denying it. I must also say that I am struck with the unique honesty and vulnerability this couple presented to Brian, which is quite different from the defiant, militant stuff you see elsewhere. I wonder if he would have responded differently to someone who had never darkened the door to his church.
With regard to baptism, I would treat an individual who had been in open, known sin the same way as any othe We’
d have a talk about repentance. The nature
of the sin isn’t as important as the attitude of the heart and the WILLINGNESS to turn away from the sin and toward Christ.
Daniel on Thu, May 08, 2008
A couple things come to mind.
First, let’s remind ourselves that homosexual behavior is not the same as a homosexual orientation.
Second, I do think it’s important to take seriously the call to discipleship. Certainly baptism doesn’t mean “I’ve got all my ducks in a row.” No. But it does mean “I’m committed.”
And so the baptismal vows have to be sincere (and the baptismal vows should not just be a profession of faith, but a commitment to change lifestyles—and I mean that for everyone). Homosexuals should become celibate. Military officers should leave the military. Pornographers should leave the industry. Advertisers should seriously consider leaving the industry. Suburbanites should share their things. Cohabitating couples should get married. And so on and so forth.
People should know (more or less) what they’re getting themselves into when they get baptized. As long as they do, they should be baptized, gay or straight.
My two cents.
-Daniel-
Andy Wood on Thu, May 08, 2008
Hmmm. Wondering about that whole military thing. I never saw Joshua or any Centurions laying down that sword.
Peter Hamm on Thu, May 08, 2008
Good response! If someone says they trust Jesus and want to be baptized I say baptize them! The issues of sin in their lives can be dealt with apart from that, by the Holy Spirit and the community of faith working together.
CS on Thu, May 08, 2008
Here’s the thing that got me in this matter.
“Which sin is greater: continuing with the way we choose to live our lives or having one of us move out and ripping apart the only home our son has ever known?””
Here, these people have used a child as a means of legitimizing their relationship which God would not otherwise sanction or approve. They present two options: stay in a lifestyle of sin, or possibly harm the child. What they have failed to consider is that their relationship, as-is, is already harming the child overall—perhaps not openly obvious to the child or people looking in, but behind the scenes there is damage due to the immorality.
I believe that this comment shows that they have no desire to truly repent of their sins, and wish to continue in a homosexual lifestyle. And since repentance should precede baptism, I would not baptize them.
I agree with all of the other comments about not baptizing unrepentant people who engage in other lifestyles of sin, too, from alcoholics to white collar criminals, adulterers to thieves.
—
CS
Leonard Lee on Thu, May 08, 2008
I have a couple responses to this: First you cannot love people you judge. God might be able to but I have never met a Christian who does this well. I think the order for us must be love first, then my words are not judgment but love. The problem is that far too many times I start with judgment and call it love. While the difference here might be subtle the end result is not.
Second, because of how woven into the fabric of our media and youth culture homosexuality is, it no longer suffices to say; “it’s wrong and that’s that…” and then to brand every homosexual as a pervert or emotionally mangled person. For the church to respond like Jesus we must respond fully with Grace and fully with Truth. IMO I think fear, misunderstandings about homosexuality, misunderstandings about the bible and a persons pride have made this difficult for the average Christian to know how to respond or to choose any other response than judgment.
That said I would baptize anyone who has given their life over to the authority of Christ, meaning if someone was willing to go from where they are to where they need to be in discipleship, it is a yes from me. But if someone insists that God accept this sinfulness in such a way as it remains in their life, I would not baptize them. This is not about the sin but the heart.
Wendi on Thu, May 08, 2008
CS –
[Your comment shows Here, these people have used a child as a means of legitimizing their relationship which God would not otherwise sanction or approve.]
Your comment shows how little you understand what it is to be lost completely, to have no practical understanding of who God is, let alone what He does and does not approve of. Worse yet, it shows that you have no interest in understanding lost and broken people, you just want to judge their sinfulness and wag your finger.
In this case, you are assigning motives onto this couple which you have no way of knowing. How can you assume their thoughts and reasons for bringing a child into their relationship? For all you know, they are simply two people who love one another and want to be a family with children. They already believed that their relationship was legitimate, having no framework for thinking otherwise. Now, it seems, that the Holy Spirit has begun to work in their hearts and they are seeking guidance about how to find their way out of their complicated lives their lostness allowed them to create.
“These people” as you call them, are our mission field. We cannot reach people who we find disgusting, which I believe the tone of your comment implies.
Since you apparently see this as a simple situation, how would you advise them (assuming the child isn’t an infant)? They split up? Who raises the child? One of them? Foster care or adoption? Does one or both of them remain in this child’s life? If so, as who; mom or dad, or do they now become aunt or uncle or neighbor?
We live in a fallen world and the consequences of this bondage is often far to complicated to be fixed by making one or two decisions. We are all part of creating the complications, as we have a part in creating and sustaining the social structures in which sin thrives (our own included).
Again, I appreciate Pastor Jones for his courage, for resisting pat answers and allowing the HS to continue working.
Wendi
DanielR on Thu, May 08, 2008
Warning: Off-topic comment
Daniel. Oh, Daniel. Did you really just say that to be baptized a military officer should leave the military? That one can’t be in the military and be a Christian? That hurts! I’m 48 and I spent half my life in the military, and I may be a minority opinion but I consider myself a Christian. There are a lot of very dedicated Christian Chaplains in the military that would disagree with you.
helen on Thu, May 08, 2008
daniel i do not understand about the miltary, do you think a person in the military could not be saved? we can not stand by and let our country be taken over by whoever will.thank god for our military.
slw on Thu, May 08, 2008
John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance, is that exactly what baptism in Christ is? The Ethiopian eunuch only faced the prerequisite of believing on Christ, without an examination of his past temptations, inclinations or failures. Not withstanding those musings, the gospel message is “repent and believe the good news.” How can anyone be said to actually have done that if they are defending and continuing in a lifestyle they know the Word declares sinful? It seems to me, the Romans 6 symbology for baptism would exclude baptizing anyone who wasn’t determined in mind and action to turning away from what they knew was sin. I guess I’m with CS.
helen on Thu, May 08, 2008
i agree with cs, and i also agree with slw, if god is drawing us our lifestyle has nothing to do with our salvation,we do not sit down and discuss our lifestyle unless you really do not know if it is sin or not, then when it is explained , then we have a choice to accept gods calling/drawing or reject it. but surly invite them to church, because the gospel will finally bring them to a decision , it may not be the god decision, but they will clearly understand what way they want to go. i pray that it will be gods way.
Joe Louthan on Thu, May 08, 2008
I was worse than these homosexual men. I worked in pornography.
But it wasn’t the judging other others that made me change, it was God and God alone.
We would like to think that our convictions would be enough to change other people.
God told us not to judge. God told us to love exactly like He does.
You are struggling with something? Fine, I still love you. God still loves you. We ain’t going anywhere.
All He wants for you to do is for you to give your life over to Him and depend on Him for everything.
Then you will know how truly great our God is.
CS on Thu, May 08, 2008
Wendi:
“Your comment shows how little you understand what it is to be lost completely, to have no practical understanding of who God is, let alone what He does and does not approve of. Worse yet, it shows that you have no interest in understanding lost and broken people, you just want to judge their sinfulness and wag your finger.”
Actually, I was one of these lost people once upon a time. And when I realized the gravity of my sin, and the Holy Spirit convicted me, I wanted to stop what I was doing and immediately follow after Christ, forsaking my lustful desires. Kind of like how it says in Luke 9:62, “And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.” Or like in Luke 14:26-27, “If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.”
And I also care about the purity of the church. Baptizing anyone who is unrepentant and continues in any lifestyle of sin can damage the purity of the church.
—
CS
Randy Ehle on Thu, May 08, 2008
I cannot condemn Brian’s response; he replied gracefully and acted out of his conviction. I think I would have to handle it differently, though.
We Baptists are fond of saying that baptism is just a symbol, an outward sign of an inward change. I don’t believe it is more than that (i.e., regenerative in itself, required for salvation, etc.), but I think we can’t lightly dismiss the object of the symbolism; i.e., the “inward change”. Baptism must certainly be more than just the conductor’s hole-punch on an already-purchased train ticket.
So perhaps the question is not whether to baptize an openly - and apparently unrepentant - homosexual. Perhaps we need to back up further with this individual and explore his relationship with Christ. John came preaching a baptism of repentance; Jesus carried on that proclamation. Recognizing that “we all sin in many ways” and that one who teaches “will be judged more severely”, I would want to take some time to explore with this individual (and his partner?) just what and who it is that he has professed faith in, and whether he is repentant and desirous of living out what Jesus taught. One of the most profound examples of Jesus walking this tightrope was when he was faced with the woman caught in adultery; his balanced response was, “neither do I condemn you…” (grace), “...now go, and sin no more” (a call to repentant living).
I would want to present the same call to this man: “In response to the grace of God, I accept you as you are, as does Jesus; in response to both the love and the holiness of God, Jesus says, ‘now go and sin no more’. But I recognize that transformation is a lifelong process, and I want to walk with you through the difficult steps that will require, especially in the early days of this commitment. I want to help you and your partner understand and deal the ramifications of the commitment you have made to Jesus - and they are many. If you can accept this, then I will joyfully baptize you as the first step. If you’re not sure whether you can accept this, then let’s explore together what the Bible has to say about it.”
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