The Tithing “Money-Back Guarantee”
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Wed, April 06, 2005
- Viewed 114
- (55) comments so far
"I can remember when my children were little and my husband had just gone into business, and we had four children to feed," Smith said. "I went ahead and gave the money I could."
To encourage their congregation to tithe a full 10 percent, leaders at Gardendale Baptist Church recently challenged their members, including Smith, to tithe for a three-month period and in return, God would bless them. If not, a full refund would be provided.
Gardendale, on South Staples Street, is not the first church to offer a tithing challenge. Bay Area Fellowship on South Padre Island Drive also has offered a guaranteed tithing program during the past six years but plans to discontinue the money-back guarantee after one congregation member recently became disgruntled, said Bay Area Fellowship Pastor Bil Cornelius.
Cheryl Brooks, Bay Area Fellowship member and former employee, said the church owes her a refund of $21,000 for her contributions made during the past three years, the duration of her membership at the church.
Cornelius said his tithing challenge was only for three months, and the church never promised to return contributions spanning years. Despite the three-month time frame, he did offer Brooks a refund of her 2004 contributions totaling $2,694 to settle the dispute, which Brooks refused.
At Gardendale, administrative pastor John Gilbert said members accepting the challenge must fill out a commitment form, which acts as a contract requiring them to tithe a full 10 percent for three months. It is not until after the three-month period that one can request a refund.
Gilbert said the church has such strong faith in God's promise to bestow blessings that they are confident their members will not ask for refunds.
"God will bless you if you do what he asks you to do," Gilbert said. "At the end of the three months, if they don't feel they've been blessed, and they want their money back, they can have it. What we're trying to do here is not raise money, but what we're trying to do is grow people."
Texas Christian University religion professor Jim Atwood said that although he is not aware of churches offering money-back guarantees, churches are becoming more creative with their fund-raising efforts.
"There have been campaigns forever in religions," Atwood said. "One of the things churches are doing is looking for new ways to raise money to fund their ministries because they have more ministries now than in the past. The more services you have, the more money you need."
Churches have offered variations of tithing challenges with refund guarantees for years, but usually it's always accompanied with a requirement that members also adopt responsible financial principles, said pastor John Smith at First Family Church in Calallen.
"Most pastors will say if you will take all financial principles into place, then if you're not financially better off, they will refund your money," Smith said.
Smith, of Gardendale, who now plans to tithe 10 percent, knows that life is never certain, but she said tithing and her faith are constant.
"I think we grow as a Christian whenever we tithe," Smith said. "That's one of the things God wants you to do, and if you're obedient to him he will bless you."
Brooks said she will never again donate such a large portion of money to a single organization, but does plan to spread donations among several charities in smaller portions.
Any thoughts?
We thought it was a good idea” department… check out this article from the Corpus Christi Caller-Times. It seems that Bay Area Fellowship decided to offer a ‘money back guarantee’ on tithing to show that God WILL bless you when you tithe. It worked well, until a disgruntled member asked for her $21,000 back!
Comments
if you want a Globally Recognized Avatar (the images next to your profile) get them here. Once you sign up, they will displayed on any website that supports them.
Daniel Zepeda on Fri, April 08, 2005
Hi tally,
My second post was posted prior to reading your response. I was not trying to be a smartaleck, but only sharing my opinion. I hope my second post is taken in the manner in which I wrote it, that is to share and learn what God is doing in each of us.
God Bless and have a great weekend.
your brother in Christ.
Daniel
Tally on Fri, April 08, 2005
Daniel,
I believe we agree in principle. It sounds like you think my point of view is that somehow we are bound by the law. We are not. We both agree that we are under grace. Even according (once again) to the scripture you quote, Paul is urging the church to a higher level of giving.
“3For I testify that they gave as much as they were able, and even beyond their ability. Entirely on their own, 4they urgently pleaded with us for the privilege of sharing in this service to the saints. 5And they did not do as we expected, but they gave themselves first to the Lord and then to us in keeping with God’s will. 6So we urged Titus, since he had earlier made a beginning, to bring also to completion this act of grace on your part. 7But just as you excel in everything—in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in complete earnestness and in your love for us?—see that you also excel in this grace of giving.”
Do you not think that the church at Mecedonia’s gift level that Paul points out was AT LEAST 10%? It says they actually gave beyond what they gave even beyond their ability. Does this mean they gave what they literally couldn’t? No. It means they gave above what one would consider to be what they could ‘afford’. Their love resulted in an overflow of giving.
What I’m saying about tithe is entirely consistant with this position. I’m saying a person who truly understands what the Messiah did and truly gets the concept of atonement and redemption cannot help but to give overflow. What I’m saying is that we can at least expect to teach the principle of tithing as a foundation. As law God gave us this 10% principle. You and I agree that after the law comes grace and love which truly and honestly demand more of us. You are right to say that if we just do 10% and feel we have met our needs we are confused and ignorant of love. True love demands everything, not a token percentage. We agree. All I’m saying is that the 10% is so tiny compared to real love that Christian leaders should have no problem teaching that this was a minimum offering level. You and I agree… Love and Grace require so much more. We also agree that 20% of our church members tithing cannot be a true reflection of that overflow-type of love? Do we agree on that?
Tally on Fri, April 08, 2005
Hey Daniel,
My post was a little harsh as well. I do apologize for the tone. I appreciate your passion on the topic and your obvious commitment to God’s grace and love. We’re on the same page there.
Satisfied in Him,
Tally
TallyWilgis.Blogspot.com
bernie dehler on Fri, April 08, 2005
Tally,
One simple question. In the time of Israel, who tithed?
My understanding is that it wasn’t everyone. It was only those growing crops (from the land of only Israel) and those managing livestock. Craftsman, as (just)one example, didn’t tithe. This is from Scripture, not imagination. Scripture says who is to tithe, and how much, and what do do with it.
Another question. Do you follow Scripture in tithing? Have you eaten your tithe correctly? See Deuteronomy 14:23:
Deuteronomy 14:23 (see also Deut. 12:17)
Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always.
Why haven’t you eaten your tithe?
Regarding tithes, there is a lot of ignorance taught from the pulpit, and it just gets repeated because of religiousity.
Malachi 3 is important, but you have the wrong context/understanding. Read this short article for the correct understanding of it (by Author/Teacher Steve Gregg):
http://www.freegoodnews.com/tithe_gregg.htm
...Bernie
http://freegoodnews.blogspot.com
Tally on Sat, April 09, 2005
Yes Bernie I have eaten my tithe. So have you (if you participate in a local congregation). Do you?
Assuming you participate in a local Christian congregation we will call ‘church’…
Does your church pay for meeting space?
Does your church pay salary to it’s staff?
Does your church use electricity?
Does your church buy cleaning supplies, outreach materials, bulletins, robes for the chior, support missionaries, feed the poor, care for those less fortunate in your congregation ....on and on and on….
If so, do you consume any of those things? Do you sit on a chair, do you take communion, do you use a bulletin, is your Pastor paid a living wage, do you use the clean bathrooms?
Yes Bernie, thanks for asking, we do consume (eat)the tithe in the presence of God.
We must realize that the OT is filled with truthful PRINCIPLES we can carry over. It’s amazing to me how people who want to distort scripture run to the most obscure passages and ask if they are still practiced as if this simple argument dismisses the principles upon which the entire bible and our entire faith are founded.
When people are so afraid of learning PRINCIPLES from the OT they become very much like a Pharisee. Hear me clearly, not a Pharisee, like one in that they are so concentrated on the law that they can’t see the principles being taught. God’s principles haven’t changed. Yes the tithe is currently consumed under God by his people doing what he prepared in advance for us to do. Bernie, at that time God also had a ‘location’ people had to travel to. We don’t do that today either but does that mean we quit meeting at any particular location? Your argument if taken to it’s fullest would argue that we should all stay home because in the NT the Holy Spirit lives in us. For that matter we might as well pay ourselves the tithe huh?
Your argument doesn’t hold water in 1 Corinthians 16:1-2. vs. 2 says “set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income”
What do you suppose he means when he said ‘in keeping with his income’?
In addition we have to take a look at Luke 11:42.
“42“Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.”
Without leaving the former undone.
I know, I know. You will argue that this was before the new covenant but again are we thinking law or principle?
I read the article you’ve asked people to read. It’s a classic case of straw man argumentation. The article portrays those who teach that tithing is a biblical principle as being anti-stewardship. This is a weak argument and a mischaracterization of the truth. Anyone who understands logic can see through it. Stewardship and Tithing are not opposed to one another. They are NOT mutually exclusive. The article you are posting acts as though a tithe is mutually exclusive to stewardship. No, a tithe is PART OF good stewardship.
Also your article attacks the character of Pastors and Shepards who oversee the local church when it trivializes the usefulness of bringing an offering to ones local congregation. The article effectively says it’s good to withhold your tithe/offering from your local church because the leadership may waste the money on something frivolous like carpet for the 3rd time in a decade. This trivializes the ministry and questions the integrity of those who lead those ministries. Here is the reality, if a person cannot trust that their Pastor leading under God’s direction, that person should leave the church or follow church protocol to have the Pastor removed. To withhold finances and place the local church on the same ground as a Para-church organization is crazy. Beyond that, the illustration seems to completely violate Matthew 18:15-17 in dealing with a brother who is caught in sin (which I’d argue that Pastor would be if he is wasting church funds).
Finally I understand why you wouldn’t want people to bring offerings to the local church where they are being discipled and ‘eating’ of the tithes and offerings (via various programming and resources needed to keep the church in a facility and such).
If Christians were to get serious about STEWARDSHIP (including tithing), they would bring tithes and offerings to their local church, likely give money and possessions to the poor and would not have much use for online ministries that are simply redundant in what they offer to the general public.
bernie dehler on Sat, April 09, 2005
Tally,
Thanks for reading the article I mentioned. Since you read it and have considered it, I have nothing more to add. One of us is definitely wrong; I suggest we both continue to seek the Lord for wisdom.
By the way, you don’t eat the tithe as mentioned in the OT verse I gave. You don’t follow the directions in Scripture. This is not an “obscure” passage but part of the very definition of what a tithe is and what to do with it! You have redefined what a “tithe” means, with absolutely no Scriptural support. It’s like redefining what the sabbath is, which NO Christian observes today (PER THE OT DEFINITION).
By the way, online ministries are simply a different part of the “body of Christ,” the Church. We each have our place and role to play. I do believe in the local church, but I don’t believe that church-goers should blindly give 10% to it (although they are free to if that’s their informed choice).
Some people can afford to give much more than 10%, some can’t afford that much; they need to have the freedom to give what they feel God leads them to.
...Bernie
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/247
Tally on Sat, April 09, 2005
I’ve enjoyed talking with you Bernie. I wish you well. God Bless.
Tally
Karen on Sun, April 10, 2005
My family and I have attended Bay Area Fellowship in Corpus Christi since 1998. I have heard Pastor Bil preach the sermon on tithing from Malachi. He has said that this is the only place in the Bible where God says to test Him. Our church has gone from a handful of people meeting in the pastor’s apartment in 1997 to over 4000 meeting in 7 services each weekend. Many who attend are seekers who were intrigued by the mailer they received or the TV spot which preceed each sermon series. The church’s main focus is to reach the lost in our city for Christ. There will always be a place for traditional Baptist churches. But getting the unchurched to visit is more of a challenge. Our staff uses very creative ways to get people to “check out” our church. To many people, tithing is a totally new concept. They didn’t teethe on the Baptist Hymnal and grow up hearing sermons on stewardship. It is a beautiful thing to hear stories of how God has blessed people who have just begun to tithe. Their faith has deepened when they see the promises of God fulfilled.
Pastor Bil has also said that God sometimes allows adversity in our lives so that we will draw close to Him. My husband and I continued to tithe even through financial hardship. I could not put a dollar value on the spiritual growth that this hardship has led to.
The pastor and staff are good stewards of every dollar that comes into the church. Their offices are in “mobile mini” trailers on the church property. After expenses, the money goes into outreach.
Just had to add my thoughts here.
bernie on Sun, April 10, 2005
Hi Karen,
Pastor’s say a lot of things. It can even be logical. The question is, is it “spiritual” and “Scriptural.” Remember when the Lord Jesus told the parable of the sheep and goats— those who appeared to do mighty works for God weren’t even known by God!
Matthew 7:22-23
22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Yes, you can build a nice church and kingdom thru tithing… just look at what the Mormon’s have accomplished. (Tithing is a very big deal for them.) I hope you do your own self-study on the topic… something I’m sure your Pastor would encourage (self-study).
...Bernie
David on Sun, April 10, 2005
Intereting discussion/argument/discussion… Something that I’ve not seen here is also the principle of responsibility in Matt 25. God did not instruct us to give for us to “get.” He did not tell us to test Him so that we can offer a money-back guarantee. These promises are in Scripture to show that if we trust God with our finances and resources, that we can trust Him to take care of us.
When we give and receive more in return, it’s not a “reward” for us to grab and run with - it’s God acknowledging our responsibility with what He gave us (Deut 8:18 “But you shall remember the LORD your God, for it is He who is giving you power to make wealth…). One thing that’s always seems to be missing in teaching about giving (and receiving) is that when God does bless us with an abundance or an increase, He has given that to us so that we can increase our giving. It’s not to “prove His point.”.
Tally on Sun, April 10, 2005
Agreed David. When we are faithful with little God may choose to allow us to be stewards of much, giving to get isn’t the focus, it’s giving to give.
The ‘church’ is God’s people. Period. How does God then bless his church? By blessing his people.
The end (as with Bay Area Fellowship) is God’s glory, not get rich quick ideas.
I’d like to point out how encouraging it is to see that Bernie is suggesting Karen’s Pastor may be damned to hell. Way to go Bernie. In my book Bernie has lost it.
Karen, I’ve been to Bay area and have observed that ministry for several years. God is at work and as you know the things they are doing aren’t free, the principles are true and thousands of lives have been forever changed and God is actively rescuing people from Hell’s grip through the ministry of Bay Area Fellowship.
I didn’t realize that teaching tithing is now linked to hell-bounders. God’s principle in the OT saves, the same principle in the NT according to Bernie is enough reason to send a Pastor to hell. It’s impossible that God is working through this ministry.
Offering a refund if you are not blessed speaks to the belief the church leadership has in God honoring his word. God obviously has come through for years and will continue to come through for this church.
When you soar like an Eagle, you are bound to attract hunters.
Keep soaring with your ministry Karen!
Daniel Zepeda on Mon, April 11, 2005
I love to debate and discuss scripture and make known personal opinion, but when we resort to personal attacks, we all lose. As Christians, it is important that we hold discussions on what the Lord has taught us and it is our duty to judge what is said and only keep that which is good. Let us always remember that we are being watched to see if we truly reflect the character of Jesus.
In my opinion as my heart has interpreted scripture the tithe is a principle that taught obedience in the Old Testament and God has never placed a maximum or a minimum on the New Testament believers except that we give as cheerful givers and for us to understand that it is our responsibility to ensure the work of the ministry is amply supplied. We are blessed when we give as the New Testament scripture supports, but not just monetarily, but physically and spiritually as well. Giving should be an act of love towards our Heavenly Father for what he has done for us. If we give let it be in the same manner and with the same passion that Christ gave his life for us and we will fair well.
Daniel Zepeda on Mon, April 11, 2005
Here is some scripture to contemplate. Matthew chapter 4
1Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungered. 3And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. 5Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
The offering of refunds according to the article was a great Idea until someone asks for a refund. In my opinion, this action by churches to offer refunds was a pure gimmick just like what Satan used to try to get Jesus to jump.
If I give to my local church and I am a member in good standing and fall into hard times my church family should meet my needs which is part of the mandate of the Church. Today many churches place benevolences at the lowest priority and that’s wrong.
bernie dehler on Mon, April 11, 2005
Tally wrote:
“I’d like to point out how encouraging it is to see that Bernie is suggesting Karen’s Pastor may be damned to hell. Way to go Bernie. In my book Bernie has lost it. “
Tally, I never said that. You inferred that from the quote from Jesus. Blame our Lord Jesus, not me.
My point is that “results” don’t prove anything. Evidence I cited was the “results” of “Mormons” and the quote per our Lord. I assumed we all see the Mormon religion as a perversion of the true gospel and that we all follow our Lord’s teaching. The Lord’s teaching applies to all of us, even me and you. The quote wasn’t to infer her pastor was going to hell, but that the “results” she cited are not really that impressive.
We can be impressed by big churches and crystal cathedrals, but in the end, it’s all gonna burn (2 Peter 3:12). The disciples where also impressed with the temple, and Jesus told them how it was going to be destroyed (Matthew 24:1-2). Remember, everything about this earth is temporary. Our life is a vapor.
Jesus told us to store our treasures in heaven, not earth (Luke 12:33). The prosperity gospel teachers are teaching the direct opposite. Let’s get with it!
2 Peter 3:12
as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
Luke 12;23
Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.
...Bernie
http://freegoodnews.blogspot.com
rev jay on Mon, April 11, 2005
Sounds like too many ‘ministers’ have too much time on their hands to be running back and forth on the blog writing, answering, qualifying and what not to make a point that the other one isn’t going to buy into anyway. I guess there is nothing better to do on a Monday…
Rev Jay
Page 3 of 4 pages < 1 2 3 4 >
Post a Comment