What do YOU think is the biggest problem in American Christianity Today?
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Mon, April 06, 2009
- Viewed 114
- (48) comments so far
Personally, I do see his point. However, I would differ with who he would say is the root of the problem, because I think he has communicated over the years that it’s pretty much everyone but him. 
What do you think? Is MacArthur right on this one, or dead wrong?
Todd
Take a look at this for a couple of ideas. Then I'd love to hear your own. Do you agree or disagree?
Comments
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Dave Z on Mon, April 06, 2009
CS,
I appreciate your response. I agree that faith and repentance work together, like sissors blades. SIn, in the life of a believer, cannot be condoned, but should be confronted and dealt with in a biblical manner, hopefully producing repentance.
But I do get very tired of the attacks that JM and others seem to constantly make against those who have a different approach to ministry. If we’re going to condemn something, let’s condemn sin. But JM doesn’t charge “the media face of Christianity” with sin, just with a different emphasis. To me, he sounds just like the Pharisee in Luke 18, “Thank you, Lord that I am not like other preachers, shallow and insipid.” I just don’t see the humility that spiritual maturity should bring. Instead, he seems proudly self-righteous - he “gets it” and no one else does. As if he alone is guided and in-dwelt by the Holy Spirit. Let me be clear, his condemnations imply that none of those he speaks against are being led by the Spirit. Pretty bold statement.
Dave Z on Mon, April 06, 2009
OK, how about this…is a threat to the Church of Jesus Christ even possible? Really… in the big picture. Is not the battle already won? We’re just watching the details play out.
Consider it - is there a chance that the church could be hurt by anything - that the accomplishment of the plan of God could be affected by what we do? We’re talking about the body of Christ himself. Can there be a threat to Christ? To God himself?
What do y’all think?
jud on Mon, April 06, 2009
John MacArthur = Gioacchino Giuliani
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/04/06/italy.quake.prediction/index.html
CS on Mon, April 06, 2009
Brian:
Before I respond, I’d like to pause for a moment. Sometimes I don’t say it enough, but I am grateful for brothers like you, Dave, Peter, Leonard, and Todd. I enjoy our conversations whether here or through e-mail, both when we’re in sync and when we have opposing viewpoints. Just something on I my heart I felt I needed to say.
Now, onwards! =)
“As for what I think is the biggest problem in the church today, in my opinion it is that we are not helping people become doers of the word. We’re heavy on information and very light on application in sermons, Bible study, small groups, etc.”
I disagree with your assessment. Anecdotal example, I know, but I went through a recent series of presentations I created for understanding the Bible with some people in my church. I covered the basics from the layout of the Bible, Old and New Testaments, themes, locations, etc. And many of these people did not even know the simplest things in the Bible.
They didn’t know why they were reading the same stories of Jesus in four different ways. They didn’t know where to find basic stories in the Bible. One question I was even asked was, “Why are some of the words in red in the New Testament?” Another person to whom I e-mailed my presentation said, “Thank you so much for what you sent! It crystallized and made so much of what I have been reading make sense!”
I think that the problem here may not be information<i>, but <i>data. Data is just bits of facts, stories, and elements that are available to people. But information is taking that data and transforming it into useful purposes. Purposes that would cause people to want to take what they know and go apply it.
So, as people go to church, they may be getting plenty of data (or enough of it to be dangerous), but since there is a lack of teaching, discernment, and biblical wisdom, it never gets translated into information that is beneficial to believers that then causes reactions. That is why I discount the common declaration used on many Christian blogs today that, “People are educated above their level of obedience.”
Dave:
“But I do get very tired of the attacks that JM and others seem to constantly make against those who have a different approach to ministry. If we’re going to condemn something, let’s condemn sin.”
You’re right that sometimes MacArthur seems to go overboard. Yet I’m finding that he is right more and more about the quantity and fervency of false, bad, and errant teaching in our churches. And when we have people who mangle the Word of God in such a matter, that is a sin worth condemning in itself.
—
CS
Dave Z on Mon, April 06, 2009
CS, I agree about being thankful for you and others on this list. I find you to be thoughtful and passionate about the gospel, which I admire, even if we disagree at times. And hey, sometimes we agree!
I will say that I don’t find the situation to be as bad as you paint it. Perhaps we’ve just been in different situations.
Although, I will tell this story. I was new on-staff at a mainline church, doing music. This would be exactly ten years ago, because right around Easter, tensions in the office and around the staff were really high. At one point I was telling some of this to an elder, and I said it felt like an attack. He said “What do you mean?” I was kind of speechless for a moment, then said, “Well, there are spiritual forces that oppose and attempt to hinder the ministry of the gospel.” He looked back at me skeptically and said “Is that in the Bible?”
So yeah, there is some real shallowness out there, but in that same church I found deep wells of spirituality, and over a period of time, many in that church were transformed and began to grow in the Lord. Today, they have a much greater emphasis on Bible study and spiritual growth.
But I think that overall, my experience has been with churches that are faithful in their teaching of truth. I was at one church for 15 years. When I got there, it was about 120 people. When I left (called - by God - to the mainline church in the story above) they were well over 4000 - the largest church in that (liberal) denomination. That growth was ~because~ of solid teaching. A couple of years ago, that church, along with the entire Southwest region, withdrew from the denomination over an ever-increasing slide towards liberalism. It is a mega-church and for that reason alone, some would condemn it. But they would be wrong. Maybe that is why I tend to be defensive when people use the broad brush of shallowness to denigrate good ministries.
Peter Hamm on Tue, April 07, 2009
The biggest problem in the church today, to me, is the lack of a marriage of orthodoxy and orthopraxy in the hearts of believers.
I weary of John Macarthur castigating everyone that is not him.
“Not know enough about the Gospel to be saved?” Gimme a break.
Turn from sin and turn to Christ. (Yes, repentance is in there, but I intentionally avoided using the word.)
I think anyone can get that, the rest of the details get filled in by the community of faith, the Bible, and the Holy Spirit.
Brian L. on Tue, April 07, 2009
CS - I think you and I actually agree more than it looks like in this conversation.
I’m certainly not opposed to information and doctrine. But if that information doesn’t lead to transformation than it’s worthless in the lives of those doing the “learning.”
I know people who can discuss any number of doctrines - but their love for Christ, others, and involvement in Kingdom work is practically non-existent. Lots of head knowledge, but they are not doers of the Word. They feel that knowing is more important than doing.
Jesus says that to love Him is to obey Him - DOING what He says.
So teach doctrine - but make sure we’re bringing the “so what” and “now what” along with it so we can see how it can make a real difference in our lives for Christ.
jud on Tue, April 07, 2009
Peter,
What MacArthur is getting at are the masses of unregenerate people INSIDE the Church who, when asked, can’t explain or even understand core doctrine such as the Blood Atonement.
This is because of DECADES of pragmatism that have led people to believe they are saved because they said a prayer, or they “asked Jesus into their heart” after having their emotions manipulated once upon a time in a service designed for that very purpose.
It’s called Decisionism.
Peter Hamm on Tue, April 07, 2009
jud,
Seriously…
How many “core doctrines” must I understand? What if I’m so low in IQ that I can’t grasp it? Where is the line for how smart I need to be before I must understand blood atonement in order to be saved? How much “stuff” do I need to know to be saved? Is trusting in Christ and then having his Holy Spirit live inside enough? (You don’t need to answer all those questions, they’re just rhetorical, really…)
If someone loves Jesus but doesn’t understand the doctrines real well (yet… I hope…), but lives a life of service that leads others to want to know Jesus, perhaps even sacrificial giving and providing for the poor… (I know people like this)
...and another person understands all the doctrines really well, but is so far removed from their neighbor that they make no disciples, or don’t even help in that process… and, let’s just say for argument’s sake is doing nothing for the poor of this world out of their great abundance…
...which one is following Jesus?
jud on Tue, April 07, 2009
Peter,
God knows the heart, not me. But I do know that MANY will come before the Lord on Judgement day who did all the good works for Him and He will say “I knew you not.”
I was a part of the church model that used every resource available to build peoples emotions to a huge cresciendo on a weekly basis. There was very little in the way of explaination of the Gospel and how to Know Christ. But many people made decisions.
Our Nation is in a huge crisis because people made decisions by their emotions APART from REASONING, signing contracts for mortgages they didn’t understand. Manipulated by their emotions and the promise of instant reward and life improvement. Thats not far from what the church growth movement has done, appeal to what people want… a better marraige, better sex life, happiness on the job etc.
Everyone seeks those things, it doesn’t mean they seek Jesus. In fact no one seeks Jesus but those who are His own.
If you make a decision to “try Jesus” as it has been put, without first being completely CRUSHED by the weight of your Sin, what have you been “saved” from?
Jesus is too often presented as a solution for lifes challenges, and people are asked to “accept” Him. ACCEPT the Creator of the Universe?. He is the blood sacrifice for our sins… but blood, sin and repentance have largely been replaced in our vernacular by phrases like” your best life now” and “find your purpose”.
Straw men you say? Nope… record smashing best sellers.
Peter Hamm on Tue, April 07, 2009
Jud,
[God knows the heart, not me. But I do know that MANY will come before the Lord on Judgement day who did all the good works for Him and He will say “I knew you not.]
Jud, so in matthew 25: 31-46 which essential doctrine was Jesus telling us we would be shut out from eternal life with him over?
You seem to indicate that there is a required understanding of certain Christian doctrines in order to be saved, and Jesus seems to indicate that the regeneration that leads to salvation is in the heart and is closely tied to the fruit of that regeneration, good works, and it could be argued that Jesus says that the most important of those is those good works done for the poor.
If we are saved only by a correct understanding of certain doctrines, I’d love to see the exhaustive list of which ones they are. Do I need to understand fully the definitions of terms like “substitutionary”, “propitiation”, et al? I continue to believe that that is not the kind of faith that Jesus is talking about in the Gospels, or that Paul and the others are discussing in the letters.
There seems to me to be much “doctrine-olatry” among some circles of the Christian faith today…
Scott on Tue, April 07, 2009
I recently read Larry Osborne’s “Contrarian’s Guide to Knowing God.” After looking at all this yesterday, I went back and found this quote from the book that might be interesting:
“Didn’t Jesus say something about the kingdom of heaven belonging to those who are like little children? If he meant it, how does our insistence on sound doctrine being essential for knowing and pleasing God fit in with a child’s theological naïveté?
Anyone who has ever been around a children’s Sunday school class knows that these kids have some pretty messed-up theology. They haven’t got a clue about propitiation, the Trinity, or any of the other important doctrines of Scripture. If asked, they’ll say the darnedest things.
But as Jesus, pointed out, many of them can and do have a great relationship with God – and often, a relationship worth emulating.
That’s caused me to wonder if sound doctrine is perhaps more the RESULT of knowing and pleasing God than the primary and indispensable first step before he shows up.”
—from “Contrarian’s Guide to Knowing God” pg. 24
I think MacArthur’s statement that many people “don’t know enough to qualify to be a Christian” flies in the face of passages like Romans 10:9.
Dave on Tue, April 07, 2009
Followup to Scott,
It’s kind of funny - exclusivists (as it relates to salvation) would say that only those who have heard and believed (and understood certain doctrine, according to jud) will be saved. All others, such as the guy on the desert island, are lost, and that’s God’s sovereign choice. Yet those same exclusivists would also (generally) say that infants, both physical infants and those who remain infants intellectually, are saved, sometimes citing very questionable scriptural support. Yet, infants are clueless about anything other than their own needs, including doctrine.
BTW Scott, that is a great book.
jud on Tue, April 07, 2009
Thanks for jamming the words in my mouth !
I never said you had to understand all the core doctrine to be saved. What I said (to paraphrase) is that if you claim to know Jesus Christ and you can not personally explain how a person can be saved ( I’m a good person and I try to live a good life….) then I get HUGE question marks.
CS on Tue, April 07, 2009
Dave:
“It’s kind of funny - exclusivists (as it relates to salvation) would say that only those who have heard and believed (and understood certain doctrine, according to jud) will be saved. All others, such as the guy on the desert island, are lost, and that’s God’s sovereign choice. Yet those same exclusivists would also (generally) say that infants, both physical infants and those who remain infants intellectually, are saved, sometimes citing very questionable scriptural support. Yet, infants are clueless about anything other than their own needs, including doctrine.”
I see these as two different subjects, kind of like how someone can be against abortion and yet be pro-death penalty.
God will be merciful to whom He will be merciful. And we have indications from verses like 2 Samuel 12:23 that children, the unborn, and people who do not have the mental faculties to understand God’s plan for salvation will be saved. This is in contrast to the man on the island who will go to Hell, not because of lack of ability to understand (unlike infants or the infirmed), but because he has willfully sinned against his Creator, suppressing the truth in unrighteousness (like the end of Romans 1 says).
Two different topics, there. But for those who do qualify for God’s plan of salvation, they do have to hear the Gospel because the Bible says so (Romans 10).
—
CS
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