And I Wanted to Be There: “Ingrid, Rick… RIck, Ingrid”. Ain’t Ha
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Mon, May 12, 2008
- Viewed 138
- (100) comments so far
Here’s a link to the original post at Slice. The invitation letter, and Ingrid’s response. Be sure to go back and watch the Tim Keller piece as well. I’d love to hear your comments on this.
Hi Ingrid,
On behalf of Pastor Rick Warren, I would like to personally invite you to attend this years Purpose Driven Church Gathering (May 20-22) at our wonderful campus in Lake Forest, California. Pastor Rick would not only like to invite you, but pay for you to come out and spend three days with this group of national and global leaders. We are anticipating close to 2,000 leaders will gather to learn from our guest speakers. The only request we have is that you please wait to share your thoughts until the conference has completed. This will give you the best chance to listen and learn before responding. Lastly, I would like to include you in an open discussion time with Pastor Rick and a few other leaders on Thursday, May 22nd.
I truly hope you will accept this wonderful offer to come and learn. Please let me know by Monday, May 12th if we can count on you joining us. If you can, I will have our travel agent connect with you to take care of your travel needs. To learn more about this great gathering please click here PDC Gathering.
Sincerely,
Erik Rees
Saddleback Church
1 Saddleback Parkway
Lake Forest, CA 92630
Dear Erik,
I am in receipt of your invitation offering an all-expenses paid trip to Saddleback’s worship conference. I cannot accept your invitation. In the world of live church webcasts, book publishers, websites and so on, it is no longer necessary to travel to see a church to understand what it is all about. Your pastor’s copious writings, speeches and sermons are online and available for everyone to see and analyze in the light of God’s Word.
No amount of time spent with Rick Warren or the worship conference leaders at Saddleback can change basic facts. One of your speakers, Pastor Mark Batterson, recently referred readers on his website to the writings of New Age teacher, Eckhart Tolle, featured by Oprah Winfrey. He said that Tolle’s book, Practicing the Power of Now, was instrumental in the way he thought about life. I could not sit and listen to someone with that lack of discernment. Also featured at your worship conference is Pastor Jentezen Franklin, of the Free Chapel in Gainesville, Georgia. This is the pastor who featured a Michael Jackson Thriller dance on his church platform at a Halloween-themed service, complete with a haunted house set-up on stage. Again, how could I sit under that kind of pastor to learn about worship of the Most High God? Additionally, you have Pastor Mark Driscoll as a speaker. Mark’s filthy language and vulgarity is not fit for any woman’s ears, and I’m not about to subject myself to his disobedient use of coarse jesting in the name of ministry. It does not comport with the Scripture’s requirements for conduct in the office of the ministry. Pastor Mark Beeson of Granger Community Church will also be there to speak on the subject of worship. I cannot listen to a “pastor” who claims personal responsibility for the sex-sermon-campaigns by churches across the nation. These campaigns have brought complaints even from the unregenerate who are sick of their children getting hit with lewd materials in public places. Any pastor who is responsible for this kind of filth has nothing to share on the subject of worshiping our holy God.
Pastor Rick Warren has had vast financial resources to share with the world his solution to mankind’s problems. He, unfortunately, has chosen to introduce an entirely new generation to a social gospel, rather than the exclusive message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is telling that none of the E’s in his P.E.A.C.E. plan stand for “evangelism”. This is wrong.
I cannot agree to Rick Warren’s invitation. He has been biblically confronted repeatedly by those far more able than I regarding his numerous unbiblical teachings and the damage they have done to churches nationwide. We are to worship the Lord both in spirit and in truth. The mixture of truth and error is a dangerous combination spiritually, and that is why I will not be coming to Saddleback.
Sincerely,
Ingrid Schlueter
VCY America Radio Network
Looks like there will be no talking between Ingrid and Rick Warren, at least this side of heaven. Many of you know that we've followed the follies over at SliceofLaodicea.com over the years; the start-ups, the shut-downs; the put-downs and the put-upons. Well, it seems that in an effort for peace and reconciliation (or at the very least to open up lines of communication), Rick Warren has extended his hand to Ingrid and a place on his stage at Saddleback. Ingrid responded over the weekend with an open letter over at Slice. If you haven't already done so, please watch the video I posted today with Tim Keller talking about how religion can easily turn into oppression. I'm wondering... is this a little of what has happened with Ingrid and Rick? here's the letter...
Comments
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pezz on Mon, May 12, 2008
Asking her to wait till the end is not condescending. It’s asking for the right to here and see things in context before commenting.
Proverbs 18:13
He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.
Leonard Lee on Mon, May 12, 2008
Much of Ingrid’s reasons for declining have to do with her perception of the people speaking rather than knowing them. He characterization of Driscol is from my experience with him, not accurate. Has he used language from the pulpit that is in her mind unacceptable? So go speak to him. In my experience with Driscol, I remember one word I would not have used being used once. In the context it was used, it was not out of line, just beyond the scope of my community. Beason did help the church be more biblically open to sex and sexuality. He decided courageously to not let the only information about human sexuality be given out by the media and other so called “experts”. Batterson’s quote is completely out of context if it is the same quote I read. He was not claiming Elkhart Tolle as a mentor, but commenting on his enjoyment as a writer. Batterson is so well read, I am sure he reads people all the time a finds both good and bad in their writing. I had not issue with his quote.
Again the P in the PEACE Plan is for Planting Churches which is the most effective means of sharing Christ with others in the world today.
If it is any consolation, I would not go sit under Ingrid’s teaching or many of the people she finds so spot on. It would be a frustrating waste of time for me but then I am not opening up blogs to trash them either
JOB on Mon, May 12, 2008
Perhaps it would be only fair for those who critize Ingrid for being so public in her comments without a personal meeting to practice what they preach. Please contact Ingrid with your complaints before you comment in any public forum. I’m sure God doesn’t only read the posts in a blog but the comments also.
Leonard Lee on Mon, May 12, 2008
JOB, great suggestion. I have tried several times but to no avail.
JOB on Mon, May 12, 2008
Leonard,
I just called Rick Warren’s office and he wasn’t in, oh well, too bad I had some real concerns which I will be leaving as blog comments from now on. Try harder. Because you tried do you feel you now have permission to critize her?
JOB
Leonard Lee on Mon, May 12, 2008
did you really call or is that a trick? I have tried for years to connect with ingrid on her blog, address concerns, ask questions but she simple would not post my comments nor respond to my questions or requests for communication. BTW, I am not trashing her. But thanks for playing
Jerry Maddock on Mon, May 12, 2008
Lots of off the subject comments…. I sure would like to know how many people Ingrid brought to a growing relationship with Jesus last year compared to Rick. Now here’s a contest with no losers.
Keith on Mon, May 12, 2008
I understand the New Testament Mt 18 style of solving differences, and I AGREE with it. Having said that, when dealing with a nationally known personality like RW personally contacting him for a conversation may be not in the realm of possibility. Although I’ve personally met Rick twice, others may not have the opportunity. I also don’t have nearly the problem with Rick as I do with Perry and some of the emergent bunch pushes my buttons even more than Perry! Truth be told, I can probably get along with Perry and Rick, but some in the emergent world are really going off center. I do think that MT. 18 implies BROTHER… or that you have a relationship with that person. I don’t think it applies to say I cannot critique what a nationally known personality is saying. I also don’t think it means that I cannot use correct doctrine to refute false teaching or worse teaching taught by demons as one scripture says. In fact, I believe in one place it says that we are supposed to expose the deeds of darkness. So there is a prophetic call to show error for what it is and to speak the truth when others are following what their “itching ears” want to hear.
That doen’t mean I agree with Ingrid. And honeslty, I’ve wondered who DOES she agree with sometimes. But having said that, I have real concerns about the seeker movement that I have used as a model for so many years. I worry sometimes the method has BECOME the message.
Bottom line: I think there is biblical examples of refuting error AND I think MT 18 is supposed to be applied in the area of RELATIONSHIP. I don’t think it means I have to fly to California if I disagree with Rick before I can say so publically. I do think it means I’m supposed to solve things in my local church in a one to one deal before going public with it.
Having said that I don’t see where Ingrid hasn’t offered a “solution.” It sounds to me like she’s suggesting balance, modesty and decency and being true to the character and cause of Christ. Do I think she goes too far sometimes in her critique, yes. But I also am greatly concerned about the MARKETING, BUSINESS TYPE model thats been applied to the church where a crowd whose getting wet in baptism means we’re doing the right things. Maybe not. Last time I read “wide is the gate….” Furthermore, I worry sometimes that some of the churches we applaud today have a “form of godliness…” Personally I WELCOME voices who would say, lets talk about what is biblical. Lets search the scriptures and see if our methodology is right or not. I say lets be like the Bereans. I don’t want to throw away the seeker movement, but I do want to be challenged to THINK spiritually about it and not just swallow it because it brings a crowd throught he doors and moves people around the bases… (gets them through the c.l.a.s.s. es.) I think the BIble says a wise man appreciates a rebuke. I guess the question really is… are we wise or not? PS, God often brings rebuke in forms we can find fault with… the question on judgement day will still be, DID YOU LISTEN? Not did you like the messenger.
Gary Peacock on Mon, May 12, 2008
Reading Warren’s letter and Ingrid’s response is an all-too-familiar reprise of what has become religious “folly.” The accusations leveled by Ingrid are serious, yet I would not be swayed to agree with her since there is no substantive evidence presented with these accusations and does not seem consistent with the public ministry of these men. Contrarily, the invitation to her does seem “patronizing,” doesn’t it?
The body of Christ in America is in desperate need of true revival. Psalms 85 seems to indicate that until we are at peace amongst ourselves there can be no true awakening. We cry out for peace in the world, yet we cannot be at peace within our own family of God…wonder why the world hasn’t quite gotten our message yet?
Jerry Maddock on Mon, May 12, 2008
AMEN Gary
Peter Hamm on Mon, May 12, 2008
[Perhaps it would be only fair for those who critize Ingrid for being so public in her comments without a personal meeting to practice what they preach. Please contact Ingrid with your complaints before you comment in any public forum. I’m sure God doesn’t only read the posts in a blog but the comments also.]
I too have contacted Ingrid personally and even carried on a bit of a conversation with her. She made it very clear in no uncertain terms in her notes to me that she has no interest in dialogue. She has made up her mind on this issue and will not discuss even the possibility that she could be wrong, and continues to present what seem to me to be mis-quotes and quotes out of context from the people that she criticizes. And since the re-launch of Slice, she has made it abundantly clear that she wants no dialogue by simply not allowing any in the form of comments. So it doesn’t surprise me that much that she is unwilling to engage in public dialogue with Rick Warren.
Ingrid, if you’re reading this (and I would be shocked if you weren’t), please reconsider possibly appearing at this event.
JOB on Mon, May 12, 2008
Peter,
“I too have contacted Ingrid personally and even carried on a bit of a conversation with her. She made it very clear in no uncertain terms in her notes to me that she has no interest in dialogue.”
So what your saying is she allowed a few comments of yours on her blog. I can think of a more personal way to communicate then that. So in summary this is the Personal Contact rule, If Rick Warrern personally hands you a copy of PDL and says let’s chat when your done reading, feel free to let the criticism fly, but if you purchased a copy of PDL at your local Walmart keep your trap shut because you didn’t have the personal contact with Rick. Maybe we should just drop the “personal contact rule”. If a public figure makes public comments and publicly defends them then they are open to public criticism. Is that fair?
kc on Mon, May 12, 2008
What a ridiculous conversation going on here! I’m sure it has been said before but Rick Warren is only accountable to God and only has to answer to God. He certainly doesn’t answer to any of us nor does he answer to Ingrid.
RW is not the kind of person who would be condescending towards Ingrid nor anyone else for that matter. He has only benn acting like a Christian gentleman, as he should, and hasn’t been using virtiriolic, attacking language like our dear friend, Ingrid.
For Ingrid to say that she doesn’t need to visit RW’s church is like saying “Though I have never been to the Grand Canyon, I know what is like because I have seen the video”. If anyone has ever seen the Grand Canyone in person, there is no video that could ever begin to describe the personal experience of a visit.
Likewise, for someone to say they know what Saddleback is like because of internet video, etc. is ridiculous.
BTW-I will top Bishop Dave: invite me, RW, and I will not only clean the bathrooms, I will take out the trash:-)
JOB on Mon, May 12, 2008
I better get my butt in a Hindu Temple I may have been wrong about reincarnation all of these years.
Wendi on Mon, May 12, 2008
I’m late to this predictable discussion. Just a few comments to add, for what they’re worth:
KC says: [Warren is only accountable to God and only has to answer to God. He certainly doesn’t answer to any of us nor does he answer to Ingrid.]
I understand your point, but it’s not exactly accurate. RW, as the pastor of a local church and an incorporated 501c3, answers biblically and legally to a board of directors/elders. This is a good system, established by God (in regard to the church) and generally very effective accountability. CS – if a bunch of outsiders came to you, telling you that you are a heretic, tool in Satan’s hand, leading people to hell, then I think you would bring the accusations to your elders and ask them to give honest, careful and biblical input. You would submit to their leadership because you know that these people, not the outside critics, are the ones God assembled to protect the church and His ministry.
Even though RW doesn’t answer to Ingrid or her type, I feel he really took a high road by extending an invitation to someone who has been dedicated to bringing him down. Asking her to wait until after the conference to comment is simply a request that she resist commenting on sound bites or small elements of a conference taken out of context - - - then she can comment away.
Wendi
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