Andy Stanley on The Courageous Pastor
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Mon, November 08, 2004
- Viewed 188
- (55) comments so far
The irony is we stand up and talk about Daniel in the lion's den but then we won't even confront elders. All of these bible heroes ? David and Goliath ? and we love to preach those sermons and draw these parallels and then we're scared to confront people. I think that dynamic alone is a big part of why the church is where it is. The leadership ? or lack of leadership ? is just so much fear of people. I don't know where that comes from...
When I see pastors who are scared I want to tell them, 'Just lead.' If they fire you and you don't think God will take care of you, then you have no message for your people anyway, because we get up every Sunday and say God's grace is sufficient. He's going to take care of you, He'll meet your every need and you'll never see the "righteous go hungry." It's what we preach, but if our lack of faith in those practical things causes us to not to be able to lead then what's our message anyway?"
Wow... that gives you something substancial to think about on a Monday morning, doesn't it? I know many who read this are going through great times of conflict during your present ministry. Some probably had a day yesterday where things just blew up (literally). Don't let your 'worry about tommorrow' determine how you react to today's situations. There are also many that are reading this that are flying high in ministry right now. Stay strong. Stay courageous. And love your people.
What do you think? Do you agree with Andy? How have you shown courage in your leadership recently? Or, maybe you can give us an example of a time or two when you were scared and weren't very courageous. I'd love to hear your comments.
Serving on a church staff is not for the faint-hearted. It takes courage and strength to lead in the church. Andy Stanley spoke about pastors and courage in a recent edition of Preaching Magazine. Here’s what Andy wrote: "Speaking from my limited view, I feel like so much of the problem with pastors is they are just scared to death. They’re scared of their people, they’re scared of deacons, they’re scared, they’re scared, they’re scared. You know, if you’re scared of someone you can’t lead them; you can hardly even influence them. Here’s the pastor who’s been hired ? I tell our business guys all the time, "You’d never go to work for an organization where the customers can hire and fire the president of the company they bought products from." But that’s the church world.
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Comments
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David on Mon, November 08, 2004
Stewardship is another time for the fearful pastor. It is difficult balancing the welcome with the obligation - commitment that the congregation has to the church.
Especially in today’s culture, where most people seem to take from church - but don’t give to it. How do we hold them accountable, without ticking them off?
John Certalic on Mon, November 08, 2004
As others mentioned, Pastor Stanley is pretty naive when it comes to what happens in the business world when he asks where else can “the customers can hire and fire the president of the company they brought products from.” Ask any salesman or business owner how many times they’ve been fired by their customers in the course of a year. It comes with the territory. But he is young and can’t be faulted for his ignorance on this point. He’d be well served by one of his “Business guys” in his church taking him aside and explaining the realites of commerce.
I do think Pastor Stanley is right on when it comes to pastors fearing people. Reminds me of poor parenting. So many parents fail to discipline because they fear their kids won’t like them if they’re disciplined properly. Pastor Stanley states “I don’t know where that [fear of people] comes from.
In my view, the fear comes from 2 places. One is the desire to be liked by everyone. The other is not knowing why people do the things they do. The former is dealt with by giving up on this illusion. It ain’t never going to happen. Ever. The later is overcome through the hard work of talking to people to find out from them why they think the way they do, without assuming malacious intent, along with extending a little grace to people who are thorns in our flesh. But that’s hard work, and takes time, but that’s what good leaders do. This takes a lot more courage than the “just lead” model the author calls for. It takes courage because when we truly enter the world of another we never know what we’ll find, and we’ll never know how much will be required of us as a result. But that is what scripture calls us to do as servant leaders.
Mark Schlechty on Mon, November 08, 2004
I agree with the overall flavor of Andy’s article. I stood strong in a traditional church for four years while the board and members harrassed my family and made life as miserable as possible. They didn’t have the votes to remove me, so they sabotaged my efforts. The church went from 200 to less than 100. We paid tens of thousands of dollars to hire a church conflict expert who concluded my family had been sinned against but I had to give in to the minority. I chose to resign with no place to go. I knew I had to step away from ministry for a while. I find myself working for Walgreens, living in a tiny house, and unable to pay bills on time. The church brought in an interim pastor who was geared towards helping churches in conflict. After three months he was ready to quit. The church is dying at this point. Was it worth it? Oh yes! God is taking care of us. We can’t afford the good life, but we haven’t been evicted and we haven’t gone hungry. My family was separated for a while, and I had to live in a travel trailer, but so what. Eternity is a long time. As I prepare to plant a church after eighteen months of healing, my debth of faith and knowledge has only gotten better, and I’ve found a ministry in the workplace as well.
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One point of disagreement with Andy. My customers can fire me all day long…it is called going to Walmart, CVS, and RiteAid. No customers no job.
Mark
Mark Steven Zuelke on Mon, November 08, 2004
There is fear when one doesn’t know where one is going, or who is leading.
Ever wonder why there are so many leadership books out there? Why so many self-help books? It is because we try so desperately to understand what’s happening to us and around us.
Every helpful book takes a nugget, a gem of truth from the Word and presents that as though that will solve the leadership dilemma or show us how to raise God fearing kids, or how to do whatever it is we are fearful we cannot do.
So you read and read and get more fearful all the time because you can’t possibly read all those books! What if your congregation gets ahold of one you haven’t read? They will certainly love the book and not you and you will be outta there because you missed it and now you are incompetent!
It’s an old saw, but there is no other Book we need for life, especially for a life devoted to teaching from that Book, but the B-I-B-L-E.
al on Mon, November 08, 2004
Interesting article but totally wrong perspective. If we want to compare the church to the business world, we need to see the members not as customers but rather as shareholders who have a significant stake in what happens to their church. If we only see them as customers, then we should not be concerned about their lack of participation in the ministry of the church. We should simply try to produce a bigger and better product each week which draws them to our “store” rather than to the “store” down the street. We should not expect them to be help in any of the ministry which takes place or commit to the church. After all, they are only customers who come for the product we offer.
Shareholders on the other hand care about what happens. They are committed. Their money is where their mouth is. They want the best for their church and have a huge investment in their church which is often much greater than that of the pastor. Some of the comments above sound more like the pastors feel the people are there for the pastor’s benefit but we need to understand that we are there for their benefit. Even when we feel we have heard from God, we need wisdom to implement. If our implementation alienates people, I believe we have either moved to fast or without care for those who follow. Just like Jesus, we are called to serve and not be served.
Paul Hoyer on Mon, November 08, 2004
For many of our churches a courageous leader as a pastor is totally foreign concept. Sunday was our voter’s assembly and after the meeting one of the members who think that I run everything quipped, “I guess that next we will vote to make you the benevolent dictator!” Church is one of the last places that some people still feel that they have some “say” and they don’t always like someone else taking control. Without courageous leadership the church will be no good for the lost, only those who are already in the church.
Pastor Paul
David on Mon, November 08, 2004
I agree with Al that most members are more like shareholders who “invest” in the ministry and therefore should have a voice in making decisions, etc.
Unfortunately, some are like customers who pick and choose if and when to come and when they do come, if they don’t like what they get, go looking for the complaint window!
One big difference though—at Wal-mart you don’t get to benefit from the visit with paying! Amazing how many church members get all of the benefits of being a church member yet never contribute anything—in time, talent or treasure!
David on Mon, November 08, 2004
Sorry - in my post it should have read “...at Wal-mart you don’t get to benefit from the visit WITHOUT paying!
jimmy on Mon, November 08, 2004
Pastor Andy continually shows the wisdom and insight of a dominate leader for this time. How many times has a pastor been criticized for quitting on a church, but a church never criticized for giving up on it’s pastor.
i have worked for numberous pastors, and at times have highly disagreed with they’re approach to ministry. however you never would have known it. God commanded us to honor appointed leadership. So relevent is this article. even in the aftermath of our election season.
C Edwards on Mon, November 08, 2004
I couldn’t agree more. Pastor’s are running scared today, because the inmates have taken over the asylum. No where in scripture will you ever find deacons having authority over the church (they have no governing power). Nor will you find anywhere in scripture where they have any authority over the pastor. The scripture clearly states that a pastor (overseer) is to be:
1, a man. (sorry, I didn’t write the scripture, I just tell it like it says)
2, a strong leader (ruling his household well)
3. a patient man (not quick to anger)
4. a conservative man (not pugnatious)
5. a sober man (not prone to “much wine.”)
6. an honest man (not prone to filthy lucre)
in otherwards, and example to be followed. Granted that some men whom profess to be pastors have no business being there because they don’t really love people, however, many are men that fit the above description that are tattered, beaten and bruised for there ministry. Blessed are they for God will take care of them. remember folks, ministry is a tough “business”, and not for the faint of heart. God will be your sustainer. If you can’t take it, then maybe you weren’t called to pastor. The moral is this…even if you are under intense pressure, or are being abused verbally, and/or mentally…God is your priority, and the ministry He gave to you. You don’t have the right to give up! No matter what the reason or attack. I know it’s tough…I’m there right now, and if you’re a pastor you either are there with me, or you soon will be. Even in the toughest, and meanest of attacks, it is easier to endure if you just remember that you’re not there to please men, rather to obey God. if you get fired tomorrow, and you’ve been obedient…God is there to direct you. Nothing catches God by surprise. If He took you to it, He will see you through it, or something like that. I promise I am not judging…I’m just pouring out my heart.
Martha on Mon, November 08, 2004
It does take courage to be in the ministry. My church has declined continously over the last 25 years. I have been here 3 years. A lot of the problem is that they want the “good ole days” back. I preached a sermon from Haggai yesterday and made a comparison with the rebuilding of the temple. The people that want the “good ole days” are discouraging any new people that come in. The old group still holds the power and the money bags but they don’t do anything. They tell me that if they could just find the right pastor they would grow again. They take no responsibility for the spiritual growth of the church. They want to maintain their beautiful santuary so they can worship like they always have. They want a pastor that will come and do everything. Younger people that come in get discouraged because they are twarted at every turn. One of the deacons came to church one Sunday and a vistor was sitting in “her place.” She ask them to move, which they found offensive.
I felt brave for being able to expree to them there hindrane of the work because they couldn’t let go of the past. The church is dying but even if they only have 3 people left in the end, they will still have a great organist, music director and someone to speak. When they carry out the last one after the last funeral the doors of the church will close.
Brian Robinson on Mon, November 08, 2004
As I read this column from pastor Andy I literally had to read through tears in my eyes. I have been struggling for a few months now about how to lead my church. I am currently serving as Interim Pastor in a small country town 30 miles South of Wichita, Kansas, where I live. We can’t really afford to pay a Pastor to come in, and I was hired as the Minister of Youth and Music. About 3 months ago our Pastor showed up on a Weds. evening, read a letter of resignation, then walked out the door with no warning. Now I am doing EVERYTHING. I am tired. The conflict is this; even before he left, I was feeling drawn to seek a position in Colorado closer to my family. Now I feel stuck. If I leave, this church will fold. It is discuraging. After reading this article I realized the reason I am unhappy is because I am scared to confront the congregation, my friends and church family, about how I really feel. It is hard on my wife and 2 kids to drive back and fourth 3 times a week, and it is wearing thin on our family. And just yesterday a 19 year old told me I need to be more assertive with people. A 19 year old! How did he get wisdom that I missed.? After reading Pastor Andy’s words of wisdom I know what I need to do. I will attack my giant with the Power of God. Thank you Pastor Andy!
Jodie on Mon, November 08, 2004
My only comment to think about is the church isn’t the work world…and let’s remember that God set up the church not the “work world”. It may feel topsy turvy because we want things run like a corporation…but it’s time for the church to realize that God intended us to be the church…not pastor over people or people over pastor…but a body working together. The point I believe He was trying to make is that we are suppose to work it out…and work together. We’ve rather take the easy way out to run things our way by mocking the world’s design…but I believe if we followed God’s design we’d be closer to His intention. Pastor’s and people need to wake up and realize God is in charge…
David Palmer on Mon, November 08, 2004
Amen, Amen, Amen. For all of you out there I highly recommend Andy’s book the Next Generation Leader. These are principles we must operate under in order for us to effectively lead the church into the future. I don’t know about you but I just don’t think it’s going to get easier as we move into the next several years….quite the contrary. A picture that sticks out in my mind is that of the children of Israel and leadership of Moses….not a perfect leader or without fault but he lead none the less. And boy were they the consumate congregation of self serving whiners and complainers. I have worked for 8 different Lead Pastors over the years and watched all 8 of them at one point or another, succumb to fear and trepidation . Knee jerk, emotional, reactionary leadership ensued and finally utter chaos and ruin of their ministry as the vision was lost and decisions were made that called into question character, integrity and self respect. From my humble perspective every decision ultimately lead back to GIVING/$$$$ and a few members that had most of the dough or deep pockets that either had adgendas or mis aligned motives. we all know as pastors and leaders that we need the dough to do what we think we’re supposed to be doing….. In any case several of those Lead Pastors have not returned to ministry to this day. But I must say….it was their own fault and our own fault if we fail to lead well, with conviction and with compassion, true to the vision and calling God has set before us. I could tell you story after story that could curl straight hair…... Again, from a “ lowly worship and arts pastor”, Pastors and Leaders…........lead, be strong and courageous, stay true to the vision you have been given and don’t listen to grumbling, self serving, whining people in the congregation. If they are warming the bench week after week but aren’t doing anything with their time, talents or treasures then what’s there to listen to? What is the fruit of what we do? Are people being saved and lives being changed? If so, let that be your voice of encouragement, if not, change what you’re strategy but keep going!!!
Denise on Mon, November 08, 2004
Go, Andy, Go! Right On!! with the emphasis on “right” as in righteousness. I once heard a speaker say that most of the messages God needs to get out, we’ll never get paid for, because no one really wants to hear them. We won’t necessarily make friends by speaking God’s truth, but we will influence a World. I pray that all pastors can have this kind of dedication, to care more about what God thinks than a board or a donor or a prospect. God’s ways are the best ways.
I also pray for church reform, where churches acknowledge God’s hierarchy which places the leaders on bottom, but still in authority over those on top, which would include the boards, etc. who voted them in. If we were choosing pastors based on God’s leadership instead of our job description, we would be less reluctant to toss God’s man anywhere.
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