How to Grow Your Church?
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Wed, June 01, 2005
- Viewed 235
- (54) comments so far
http://www.christianunplugged.com/church_movie.htm
You'll need flash to view this, and it takes a little while to load but is worth it.
I totally understand the idea behind this model. As a matter of fact, I grew up in this model. Here's my main problems.
1. This model assumes that the purpose of what the contemporary church is doing is only to get larger. It takes into account only that churches are culturally relevent to get bigger. That's just simply not true.
2. Rather than concentrate on Kingdom growth of their own, they tear down and criticize those who are experiencing growth; and at the same time, say that the spiritual growth that takes place in these 'innovative' churches isn't really spiritual growth at all.
3. Along the same lines, while this camp (and I'm generalizing here) attacks their brothers and sisters in Christ; most of them show no real model that is working well in their community. Some will disagree and think this point is unfair, but I've asked over and over for an good example and I don't think anyone (thus far) has responded.
Two great examples of churches that are culturally relevant and are growing like gangbusters (and would be great examples of what this cartoon would be against) would be Granger Community Church in Granger, IN and Fellowship Church in Grapevine, TX. These churches are making a tremendous impact in their community for Christ using contemporary music and while making a distinct effort to being culturally relevant while teaching and preaching the gospel. Hat's off.
(another interesting side-note... I don't hear the likes of Granger or Fellowship talking down to their stagnant brothers and sisters telling them to get their act together and start reaching their communities for Christ... I guess my biggest problem with all this is the 'knife in the back', 'shot in the foot' stuff that we do in the body of Christ. Let's rejoice (as the angels do) when one new soul enters the kingdom; whether it's through a relevent contemporary church; or a church that is very traditional. Either way... rejoice!
More on this to follow (I'm sure). I'm interested in your take today. What were your first impressions?
For those of you who have been regular readers of this blog, you know that there has been a running debate among all different types of approaches to how we ‘do church’. We are a broad group of readers here at the MMI blog; and that stems from this blog being an out-growth of the ChurchStaffing.com website. ChurchStaffing has clients and readers all across the spectrum of evangelical Christianity… including people with differing views on everything.
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pdl on Wed, June 01, 2005
The purpose of the meeting of Christians ie. church services is not primarily to evangelize the lost. It is to worship God, disciple believers and equip them to do what God has called them to do…which ultimately includes evangelism. This is where we are going wrong in the mega-church fad of our day. The church house has become a hall for “evangelism” which effectively means that we must make the church “relevant” to the culture in order to attract the sinner in the doors—we do this by appealing to their desires/comforts/wants/language/music styles. This is not a matter of tradition vs contemporary, but of biblical vs non-biblical view/role of the Christian worship meeting/assembly. True relevancy is to take the culture of the Kingdom out into the American culture and challenge its presuppositions on the points of its sin with the unique claims of Christ and the full counsel of the Word of God. Then, when they are saved, bring them to church to be discipled under powerful unabashed preaching, prayer and power of the Holy Spirit.
BeHim on Wed, June 01, 2005
PDL
GREAT sermon friend! I heard this message about 10 years ago when I first came to the knowledge of my salvation.
Thank you for sharing. The flood of memories and heart piercing understanding of this message (Truly from God) has been resounding symbol in my heart and head (may the lamb receive the reward of His suffering).
All Glory to God!
Here are some of my favorites:
[where the whole plan of salvation was to give intellectual assent to a few statements of doctrine. And a person was considered a Christian because he could say “Ah hah” at four or five places that he was asked. If he knew where to say “Ah hah”, someone would pat him on the back, shake his hand, smile broadly, and say “Brother, you’re saved!”]
[Humanism is, I believe, the most deadly and disastrous of all the philosophical stenches that’s crepted up through the grating over the pit of Hell. It has penetrated so much of our religion. AND IT IS IN UTTER AND TOTAL CONTRAST WITH CHRISTIANITY! Unfortunately it’s seldom seen.]
Ministers (pastors) will actually argue FOR IT… amazing. But in the end, it is God who opens the eyes and ears of His sheep.
[And here we find Micah, wants to have a little chapel, and he wants to have a priest, and he wants to have prayer, and he wants to have devotion, because “I KNOW THE LORD WILL DO ME GOOD!”]
Or, in today’s terms, instead of “I KNOW THE LORD WILL DO ME GOOD!” it would be said: “For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope.”
[“I KNOW THE LORD WILL DO ME GOOD!” AND THIS IS SELFISHNESS !!! AND THIS IS SIN !!! And the Levite comes along and falls right in with it! Because he wants a place! He wants ten shekels and a shirt and his food! And so in order that he can have what he wants, and Micah can have what they want, THEY SELL OUT GOD! For ten shekels and a shirt. AND THIS IS THE BETRAYAL OF THE AGES !!! And it is the betrayal in which we live. And I don’t see HOW GOD CAN REVIVE IT! Until we come back to Christianity. As in DIRECT AND TOTAL CONTRAST WITH THE STENCHFUL HUMANISM that’s perpetrated in our generation in the name of Christ.]
AMEN!!!
[I’m afraid that it’s become so subtle that it goes everywhere. What is it? In essence it’s this! That this philosophical postulate that the end of all being is the happiness of man, has been sort of covered over with evangelical terms and Biblical doctrine until God reigns in heaven for the happiness of man, Jesus Christ was incarnate for the happiness of man, all the angels exist in the…, Everything is for the happiness of man! AND I SUBMIT TO YOU THAT THIS IS UNCHRISTIAN !!! Isn’t man happy? Didn’t God intend to make man happy? Yes. But as a by-product and not a prime-product!]
How is this possible? I submit because most don’t know/understand/believe God is the ONLY Sovereign Being in existence!
and the most beautiful portion of the sermon (brings tears to my eyes even now, today):
[There alone in my bedroom AS I FACED GOD HONESTLY WITH WHAT MY HEART FELT, it seemed to me I heard Him say, “Yes, will not the Judge of all the earth do right? The heathen are lost. And they’re going to go to Hell, not because they haven’t heard the gospel. They’re going to go to Hell because they are sinners, WHO LOVE THEIR SIN! And because they deserve Hell. BUT, I didn’t send you out there for them. I didn’t send you out there for their sakes.” And I heard as clearly as I’ve ever heard, though it wasn’t with physical voice but it was the echo of truth of the ages finding its’ way into an open heart. I heard God say to my heart that day something like this, “I didn’t send you to Africa for the sake of the heathen, I sent you to Africa for My sake. They deserved Hell! But I LOVE THEM !!! AND I ENDURED THE AGONIES OF HELL FOR THEM !!! I DIDN’T SEND YOU OUT THERE FOR THEM !!! I SENT YOU OUT THERE FOR ME ! DO I NOT DESERVE THE REWARD OF MY SUFFERING? DON’T I DESERVE THOSE FOR WHOM I DIED?”]
Read that: Do I (Jesus) not deserve the reward of my suffering? Don’t I (Jesus) deserve those for whom I died?
Ladies and gentlmen, those who would be called pastors, YOU who are here, on this blog day by day, humble yourself and take 51 minutes of your busy life and listen. Pray God open your ears and eyes to this message and that you would understand and know. Please, I beg of you in the name of Christ, take a moment! 51 minutes of eternity!!!
[Two young Moravians heard of an island in the West Indies where an atheist British owner had 2000 to 3000 slaves. And the owner had said, “No preacher, no clergyman, will ever stay on this island. If he’s ship wrecked we’ll keep him in a separate house until he has to leave, but he’s never going to talk to any of us about God, I’m through with all that nonsense.” Three thousand slaves from the jungles of Africa brought to an island in the Atlantic and there to live and die without hearing of Christ.
Two young Moravians heard about it. They sold themselves to the British planter and used the money they received from their sale, for he paid no more than he would for any slave, to pay their passage out to his island for he wouldn’t even transport them. As the ship left its’ pier in the river at Hamburg and was going out into the North Sea carried with the tide, the Moravians had come from Herrenhut to see these two lads off, in their early twenties. Never to return again, for this wasn’t a four year term, they sold themselves into life time slavery. Simply that as slaves, they could be as Christians where these others were. The families were there weeping, for they knew they would never see them again. And they wondered why they were going and questioned the wisdom of it. As the gap widened and the housings had been cast off and were being curled up there on the pier, and the young boys saw the widening gap, one lad with his arm linked through the arm of his fellow, raised his hand and shouted across the gap the last words that were heard from them, they were these,....{go and listen!!!}
BeHim on Wed, June 01, 2005
ROB WRITES:
Its almost as if we believe that people are saved by simply adopting our “church culture”
BeHim responds:
And what is the mega-church’s “culture” - use the world to reach the world?
The “culture” I’ve spoke of is use the Bible and True Gospel to reach the world and you know what, there are contemporary AND traditional churches that do so. Although not many of either (but Glory to God, there are more and more each year!!!!)!
ROB WRITES:
Traditionals persist on having the unchurched understand them, while Contemporaries are trying to find ways in which they can understand the unchurched.
BeHim responds:
Is it really about understanding traditionalists, contemporaries, churched, unchurched? Is it really about understanding mankind?
OR IS IT>>>>
About knowing and understanding the Word of God and Jesus the Son of the Living God, the Christ (Savior)?
What do you say Rob, should we be learning more about mankind (traditionalists, contemporaries, un-churched, churched, etc) or learning more about God in His Word and through His Son, Jesus?
BeHim on Wed, June 01, 2005
ROB WRITES:
Traditionals persist on having the unchurched understand them
BeHim responds:
I would say traditionalists (Christians) persist on having the unbeliever understand the Bible.
ROB WRITES:
while Contemporaries are trying to find ways in which they can understand the unchurched.
BeHim responds:
I would agree: Contemporaries are trying to find ways to understand the unbeliever?
Do you see the problem?
Ellen on Thu, June 02, 2005
I’d make the point that the individuals in a small church that is in error is in just as much trouble as the individuals in a large church that is in error.
It’s just that the larger churches make better targets, while the small churches stay under the radar.
Dean on Thu, June 02, 2005
Another follow up
Todd wrote:
“Critics say that Mega-churches meet peoples physical, emotional, and worldly needs. This is very true; and the meeting of those needs allows them to deal with people’s spiritual needs as well.”
And my response:
Churches do NOT meet needs. People meet needs. People may work together to meet the needs of others, but that is a different thing from saying that an organization does something. I think this negates the whole size issue altogether.
However, whenever most people talk about “their” church or someone else’s church, they seem to be more interested in how big they are. Those who think they are big talk about how large their assemblies are and how those assemblies have expanded, not about whether the people are representing Jesus wherever they are. I recently asked an acquaintance to tell me about his church and the first thing he mentioned was how many people attended on the weekend. He couldn’t even seem to comprehend that I wanted to know the character and behavior and attitudes of those who were attending.
I’d like to know who changed the topic of discourse from the Christ-like nature of the Church to the size of the congregations. I think this has cheapened the whole idea of following Christ. Jesus made sure he communicated the requirements of being His follower to the extent that the crowds disappeared and He wondered if even His own disciples would abandon Him. When a church crowd thins in America, we call it failure.
The size of the crowd has never been the measure of the character of that crowd. Some of these mega-fans need to set the example by telling their participants to shut up about how big they are and how big they are getting and show a lifestyle of self-renunciation, simplicity and sacrificial turning their backs on the values of the world. The mega-church movement is a convenient target, not because of it’s size but because of its preoccupation with size. Unfortunately, that is setting the tone for the everyone.
Many people without Christ have already dismissed this as shallow and not worthy of their lives. If we want to lead people to Jesus, we had better have a greater offer than the chance to join some organization that provides a weekly opportunity to reinforce the values of a fallen world. I do not include all congregations in this assessment, but many of the mega-fans are feeding this “size = success” syndrome and they are the only ones who can straighten our the record. How about it, guys?
Dean
SPCT on Thu, June 02, 2005
Jesus said, “You will be my witnesses.” Not, “You will be my evangelists.” Think about it. There is a subtle difference but it is a difference nonetheless. It implies that in our witness to His very existence we would manifest the love of Christ so completely that people couldn’t help but ask about God. Not that we would go forth and cram a feel-good religion down people’s throats.
Think about it. Making the gospel “culturally relevant” and palatable in order to suck em in and then supposedly to save them reeks of the work of men and of deception. Is this what Jesus did or would do?
I am not ashamed of the Gospel. It is not men but God who adds to His church. His way. With His power. With His Gospel. Of repentance. Stop trying to make it more “agreeable” to men. You remove the very power of God.
I wonder what would happen if we didn’t have the degree of ecclesiology-gone-wrong in churches today. Say, for example, that the elders (note not “a” pastor)had a small FIXED income from the church and were tentmakers. Let’s say it was stated in the by-laws that their income would NEVER be permitted to rise based on offerings, but that only the missions and benevolence budgets would.
Do you think we’d see a church of 253,000 in this case?
Do you?
Really?
Todd Rhoades on Thu, June 02, 2005
Dean,
Quick comment (I have some catching up to do from earlier ones)… of course people meet needs and not churches… churches do nothing without people. It is the church (small or large) that collectively allows people to reach needs… that’s what I meant.
One other point of contention. http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
“The mega-church movement is a convenient target, not because of it’s size but because of its preoccupation with size. Unfortunately, that is setting the tone for the everyone.”
In all my readings (especially on this blog), I’ve never heard anyone from a ‘megachurch’ say how big they were; but I’ve heard literally dozens of comments from people outside that environment (including many ‘small church’ pastors), bemoan their size.
Some people bemoan numbers simply because they don’t have any themselves to speak about. Others use numbers to, as you say, promote themselves. But here’s my bottom line:
1. Growing numbers do not mean God’s blessing or will, or that the church is even following God’s word or principles. Even cults can grow big numbers. In essence, growing numbers do not equal church growth.
2. But the contrary to that would also need to be taken into effect… a healthy church should be a growing church. I know there are some that disagree, but if a church is healthy, it should be growing in my opinion. This is kind of a no-brainer.
My whole point is… who cares about size? This whole blog or thread was started by someone outside the mega-church movement that attacked the larger churches. Let’s all strive to be effective where we’re at. Small churches, let’s be healthy and grow. Large churches, let’s be healthy and grow. And let’s rejoice together as God’s Word is spread and people come into the Kingdom.
If you don’t like your local megachurch, work all the much harder to make your church what God wants it to be. Be happy the your God is the God of both your churches.
Just my 3 cents worth (since this was long, it has to be worth more than 2 cents!)
I’ll try to answer some of the other questions earlier so that you all can pick them apart as well. http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
Todd
SPCT on Thu, June 02, 2005
P.S. as a follow up to my earlier post…
Can a flock of 253,000 sheep be adequately fed? Where are there pastures large enough for that?
We should focus more on feeding the sheep we DO have and making them into disciples and worry less about making converts. Converts come from disciples not from converts who were unwilling to cross the Jordan.
Rob Nieves on Thu, June 02, 2005
Pdl writes:The purpose of the meeting of Christians ie. church services is not primarily to evangelize the lost. It is to worship God, disciple believers and equip them to do what God has called them to do…which ultimately includes evangelism.
I can agree with that However the book of Acts would show us that people got saved at their gatherings as well, which did not include multi-media, but I believe was relevant to their culture.
Please don’t misunderstand me, I don’t believe that church needs to be a place of spiritual recreation. But on the other hand I don’t believe it needs to be boring. If we can make learning the bible interesting and exciting, then Why not?
I don’t see anything wrong with using modern technology tools to share the same message in new ways. Whether we want to acknowledge it or not, we’ve been changing our methods for years. For example there’s no mention in scripture of Sunday School or of an organ being the preferred musical instrument - we adapted these as we went along and they were a blessing in their time and still continue to be a blessing to many.
Because of the recent increase in technologial advancements, it seems that our culture has taken us for a loop and we need to adapt as we’ve always done, except this time we may have to adapt a few things at once.
The very fact that we’re posting messages up on the internet reflects our changing culture.
I often ask myself if the criticism of mega churches is even an honest criticism or a way to verbally express jealousy.
Let’s always remember that not all mega churches are created equally in the same way that not all small churches are created equally. There’s both extremes and we all know that extremes can be dangerous.
Instead of spending anymore time talking about this, let’s focus on making sure that we’re doing what’s right regardless of what level of ministry God has given us charge of.
If we honestly take a minute to think about this debate we’ll find that we’re starting to sound alot like the disciples when they were arguing over who among them was the greatest.
It was great chatting with you all…but I’ve said enough, so for me its time to move on.
Tweed on Thu, June 02, 2005
WoW!
I’m surprised at how ignorant some are in this discussion. To lump Warren and Osteen together just because they have larger churches is silly. Seems to me some are straining at gnats. Is the church imperfect? Yes of course. Are large churches unbiblical and brining ruin to Christianity? Of course not, if you beleive they are…your Jesus sure is weak and mamby pamby. Is there a perfect church and belief system? No not one. I’ll let others debate this issue, I think I shoudl just be about my Fathers bidding. I am accountable for myself as the rest of you are.
Let me conclude with this…To all those opposed to large churches…how many people have you personally led to Christ this year? How many have you discipled on to vocational ministry? What relationships do you currently have with those who have no relationship with Christ and are heading to hell at this very moment?
To those who love to cast the net wide hoping to catch some…is the “professional church” satisfying? Do you pray as much as you do plan, program and think up creative ways to share the Gospel?
There is no perfect church, we are all stumbling forward, wherever we find ourselves, we all need to grow in our following of God and the undersheperding of His church. Phil 4:2 Maybe we need to agree IN Christ.
pdl on Thu, June 02, 2005
Thanks Rob, for your comments.
My concern with the paradigm shift away from the Bible model has not to do with the use of technology…etc. (In fact I am just completing a multi-media dvd to hand out on our summer door-to-door evangelistic campaign in our city—but in the presentation sinners are being confronted with their sin, need to repent and to embrace Christ as Savior and LORD!) I am grieved at the philosophical move from the house of God being dedicated to discipleship to seeker attraction. You will not find that model in Acts or anywhere else in the Bible. True, there were some saved in the meetings, but that is a far cry from the mega-marketing philosophy that has completely changed how the church responds to God and to the world…did you read/hear the sermon “Ten Shekels and a Shirt”? I think Bro. P.R. states the principle of pragmatism well in its destructive influence upon the Church these days…Blessings to you!
Dean on Thu, June 02, 2005
Todd
My respect for you has deepened. I agreed with most of the post in which you responded to my remarks. I would only remark regarding the comment “But the contrary to that would also need to be taken into effect… a healthy church should be a growing church. I know there are some that disagree, but if a church is healthy, it should be growing in my opinion. This is kind of a no-brainer.”
I agree that church growth would accompany healthy Christian community. However, do we need to build a church megalopolis. What about spreading the Church rather than centralizing it and increasing the difficulty of relational depth that almost inevitably accompanies big organizations? Why do these units just keep mushrooming at one location? Well that’s enough. I applaud church growth; I’m just not sure these large entities are as much a mission enterprise as they are a centralized entity.
I probably said way too much. I hope that my honest musings are received with grace. May the Kingdom of Jesus increase. And may all of us be humble enough to admit any measure of either jealousy or pride. Neither one builds the Body. As iron sharpens iron, may we be receptive to both truth and grace, the very essence of our Savior and Lord.
Dean
Ricky on Thu, June 02, 2005
Todd asserts:
“These churches are making a tremendous impact in their community for Christ using contemporary music and while making a distinct effort to being culturally relevant while teaching and preaching the gospel.”
Honestly, Todd, how do you know this to be true? “Contemporary music” the agent of change? This is almost laughable.
Has the crime and divorce rates gone down in the respective communities where these organizations are found? Have the media outlets’ accounts of happenings become more truthful? What about the politicians, local and state? Are these organizations really respected by the larger number of their respective communities?
It’s so easy to make claims based upon a biased view, thinking that organizations have the power to transform their communities. However, practically speaking, those two organizations of which you speak probably are not as well known as you think, particularly if they are located in cities of large populations.
I grew up believing that the megachurch I attended was literally “changing the world.” Afterall, this is what we heard every Sunday morning, especially when it came time for the offering. It wasn’t until I began asking people from other parts of my state and nation that I realized that the sphere of influence of my once-beloved megachurch was quite small and extended a just little beyond its own walls.
BeHim on Thu, June 02, 2005
TWEED WRITES:
I’m surprised at how ignorant some are in this discussion. To lump Warren and Osteen together just because they have larger churches is silly.
BeHim responds:
I’m surprised your blinded by your own ignorance to not even read the post correctly: Rick Warren and Joel Osteen were originally lumped together by me, NOT based on numbers (or size) but on their presentation of a/The g/Gospel.
I mourn for the Biblically ignorant christian.
TWEED WRITES:
Is there a perfect church and belief system?
BeHim responds:
You’re not suggesting that we cannot have a correct belief system or church are you?
That is dangerously close to claiming we cannot know Truth. Which is??? Relativism (there is no truth).
TWEED WRITES:
No not one. I’ll let others debate this issue, I think I shoudl just be about my Fathers bidding.
BeHim responds:
Like discussing/searching for The Truth is a side subject and service is primary. Remember what Jesus said: Matthew 7:21"Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me in that day, “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23And then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
TWEED WRITES:
I am accountable for myself as the rest of you are.
BeHim responds:
Are you suggesting we should all just walk away and be accountable for ourselves and do what is right in our own eyes and not worry/judge what others (Christians) are doing?
Or are you suggesting, we are not our brother’s keeper?
TWEED WRITES:
how many people have you personally led to Christ this year?
BeHim responds:
Are we keeping score? I didn’t know we were suppossed to keep score… who do we report the score to?
What if our scorecard is wrong? Maybe we missed somebody or have somebody on the scorecard we shouldn’t have? This isn’t a scoring game, this is a slave serving his Master!
Also, Salvation is the Work of God ALONE! I have presented the Gospel to multitudes so far this year and some fruit is visible while I’m sure others may come later. But I don’t do it for them, I do it for Him!
TWEED WRITES:
How many have you discipled on to vocational ministry?
BeHim responds:
Every single one whom the Lord brings to me, both in season and out of season. Numbers? Four to date (that I have helped disciple [teach what I know] and have gone into ministry).
TWEED WRITES:
What relationships do you currently have with those who have no relationship with Christ and are heading to hell at this very moment?
BeHim responds:
Most friends I have (those I hang out with and spend time with) are Christians and those who are not Believers, usually don’t hang around me for long periods of time because I do have a tendency to talk about God, The Bible and Jesus allot.
When I was living carnally a few years back, they enjoyed me allot more.
Now I would like to ask again, as PDL did, has anyone listened or read the “Ten Sheckles and a Shirt” that are linked above?
If not, take 51 minutes of this life and listen or read, it’s worth it, even if just to ponder/selah (here are the links again:)
READ TRANSCRIPT
http://www.firesofrevival.com/shekels1.htm
LISTEN TO MP3
http://69.44.157.77/sermons/SID0290.mp3
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