How to Grow Your Church?
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Wed, June 01, 2005
- Viewed 233
- (54) comments so far
http://www.christianunplugged.com/church_movie.htm
You'll need flash to view this, and it takes a little while to load but is worth it.
I totally understand the idea behind this model. As a matter of fact, I grew up in this model. Here's my main problems.
1. This model assumes that the purpose of what the contemporary church is doing is only to get larger. It takes into account only that churches are culturally relevent to get bigger. That's just simply not true.
2. Rather than concentrate on Kingdom growth of their own, they tear down and criticize those who are experiencing growth; and at the same time, say that the spiritual growth that takes place in these 'innovative' churches isn't really spiritual growth at all.
3. Along the same lines, while this camp (and I'm generalizing here) attacks their brothers and sisters in Christ; most of them show no real model that is working well in their community. Some will disagree and think this point is unfair, but I've asked over and over for an good example and I don't think anyone (thus far) has responded.
Two great examples of churches that are culturally relevant and are growing like gangbusters (and would be great examples of what this cartoon would be against) would be Granger Community Church in Granger, IN and Fellowship Church in Grapevine, TX. These churches are making a tremendous impact in their community for Christ using contemporary music and while making a distinct effort to being culturally relevant while teaching and preaching the gospel. Hat's off.
(another interesting side-note... I don't hear the likes of Granger or Fellowship talking down to their stagnant brothers and sisters telling them to get their act together and start reaching their communities for Christ... I guess my biggest problem with all this is the 'knife in the back', 'shot in the foot' stuff that we do in the body of Christ. Let's rejoice (as the angels do) when one new soul enters the kingdom; whether it's through a relevent contemporary church; or a church that is very traditional. Either way... rejoice!
More on this to follow (I'm sure). I'm interested in your take today. What were your first impressions?
For those of you who have been regular readers of this blog, you know that there has been a running debate among all different types of approaches to how we ‘do church’. We are a broad group of readers here at the MMI blog; and that stems from this blog being an out-growth of the ChurchStaffing.com website. ChurchStaffing has clients and readers all across the spectrum of evangelical Christianity… including people with differing views on everything.
Comments
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Todd Rhoades on Fri, June 03, 2005
Also, heads up… I’ve taken my last comment here and made it today’s main post. You can see it here:
http://mondaymorninginsight.typepad.com/monday_morning_insight_we/2005/06/cant_we_all_jus.html
Thanks! Hope everyone has a great weekend!
Todd
BeHim on Fri, June 03, 2005
PETE WRITES:
Now what we have here, is a collection of egotistical, exegetical, hermaneutical, philosophical, nonsensical, verbage that has made me deeply concerned about why we’re even commenting.
BeHim responds:
Pete, and what would someone who lashes out with name calling be considered? Consider also, the Apostles and Christ Himself we’re viewed by the Pharisees and Sadducees as “egotistical, exegetical, hermeneutical, philosophical, and nonsensical”. So if you’re calling us/me that, consider that our Lord and His Apostles and many after them were also called many of those same names and consider what that might make you (or at least what side/position, that puts you).
Do you consider what we say is NOT Biblical? If it’s NOT Biblical Truth then isn’t it something that should be discussed and searched out? I think most of us would be very willing to put our belief to the test of Scripture, I for one want my belief to be based on Biblical Truth, not Biblical Truth based on what I believe to be true.
The REAL point of your entire tirade comes down to this: “Let’s get back to making this a place for people to share how they feel about their situations.”
As though we base truth on how we “feel” about it. This IS the issue.
BTW. I do not consider I “know it all” BUT I do know the One who does KNOW IT ALL and I know what He wrote/says is TRUE!
TODD WRITES:
I really want us to get back to helping leaders help themselves not more church bashing.
BeHim responds:
In what way have I not encouraged leaders to help themselves by searching the Scriptures for Truth?
TODD WRITES:
So here we are, playing with the hand we are dealt
BeHim responds:
I was dealt Salvation from hell by the True and Living God because He loved me for no other reason than His Good Pleasure. I praise God I was dealt that hand! Why does it seem your not as Joyful with “the hand we (you) were dealt”?
TODD WRITES:
trying to make an influence for Christ however we can. We all go about it in different ways.
BeHim responds:
The problem is the “different ways” (and I’m not talking about using DVD’s, Powerpoint, etc), as though there are different gospels. You consider this is about methods when in fact it is about message, THE MESSAGE!
TODD WRITES:
(One of my ways, by the way is to encourage pastors through this blog; which is not doing a very good job at the present). Let’s lighten up on everybody…
BeHim responds:
This is a great “method” Todd, I encourage you to continue. When you suggest “let’s lighten up on everybody” does that mean you to? Lighten up on us? Also, consider that maybe when we suggest “lighten up” that we’re asking/telling the Holy Spirit to lighten up too? After all He does indwell us. Maybe some of the things needing to be said are from Him? Maybe???
TODD REITERATES:
Like it or not.
BeHim responds:
It’s not whether I like it or not, it’s whether it’s from God or not. What if God doesn’t like it? Contrary, what if He does like it? Either way it really comes down to HIM, doesn’t it?
TODD WRITES:
My mom always said if you can’t say anything nice about someone, then keep your mouth shut.
BeHim responds:
My mom used to say the same thing. But let God be True and every man a liar. Confucius, Buddha, Mohammed, they all had “cool sayings” too but that doesn’t mean it’s True or Right. I love my mom dearly but I would never tell her to shut up if she didn’t have something nice to say. My relationship with my Brethren is closer than any earthly relationship (the relationship of son/father, daughter/mother, husband/wife can be separated by heaven and hell but Brother’s we will be for eternity) and thus, I would not tell you to shut up, even if it wasn’t nice (Jesus telling Peter to get behind him “satan” or you’ll deny me, I’m sure wasn’t nice from Peter’s perspective).
TODD WRITES:
Otherwise, many of use come across as true Pharasees; overly religous, negative, and feeling that we’re always right.
BeHim responds:
Maybe it’s the one calling names and telling people to shut up that is these things you suggest. Maybe???
TODD WRITES:
For those here that have posted differing views, I’m sure your comments will be that I am avoiding debate; or that I’m a sissy; or that I’m conceding defeat. Nope… I’m just hoping that we can become a community that supports rather than a community that argues.
BeHim responds:
No Todd, I think it’s more like… you guys go over there and talk about those things. I want to be comfortable believing what I believe and doing what I’m doing, because I think it’s what God wants ME to do. It really boils down to… you’re trying to say you (and I for that matter) have the right to do what you/I/we think is right, not matter what I/we/you say or do (you would just rather I say or do it somewhere else). Does that sound in anyway like Judges 17?
BTW. Should we support (no matter how much we believe or feel it to be true) something that is not Biblically True?
TODD WRITES:
Quite honestly, I sometimes feel like some of you are using this blog as an outlet; to say and act and do things that you could never do to your own congregation. I hope that’s not the case.
BeHim responds:
I speak the Truth in and out of season, no matter how it makes a person “feel”. It’s not because of them I speak the Truth but because of HIM! Listen/read the sermon PDL posted: “Ten Sheckles and a Shirt”. It’s not about the congregation, it’s about HIM.
TODD WRITES:
Maybe a separate blog for theological debates would be in order; then we could divide the two. (I for one, love a great debate; but hate a mean fight). I’d like to open it up to you… what direction would you like to see this blog take? What topics would you like discussed? Would you like a separate blog for debate; and one for encouragement? Let me know your thoughts this weekend!
BeHim responds:
Consider just for a moment (just to REALLY - think about - Selah), that maybe instead of doing the work of God by dividing the blogs, that maybe you are hindering the work of God. I mean really, is not God in COMPLETE control? Is it by “chance” or “luck” or by some aligning of the stars that so many people found this blog and “seemingly” agree about these things? Maybe there is division. Maybe there are disagreements. But maybe shutting up the Holy Spirit is worse than division and disagreement. Instead of taking these measures, ask the Lord to do His work in these blogs and you’ll trust Him no matter what is said or posted. Is this YOUR blog or HIS? I truly hope Todd, it is HIS!
SPCT on Fri, June 03, 2005
Ricky, that last post of yours was just beautiful.
You strike me as a man who hasn’t forgotten that it was the prophets who were stoned to death.
The closer one comes to the truth, the angrier some folks get.
The supreme example, of course—Our Lord.
SPCT on Fri, June 03, 2005
Don’t forget all, that we are to discern the spirits, test all things, judge with righteous judgement. What’s going on here is SO biblical!
I just completed a personal study of Leviticus. Has anyone read the clean/unclean rules in Leviticus lately? Note it applies to those WITHIN the congregation and does NOT apply to those without. It was the priests responsibility (not just right) to determine clean/unclean.
“But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His possession, SO THAT YOU MAY PROCLAIM the praises of the One who called you OUT OF THE DARKNESS into His marvelous light.” 1 Pet 2:9
Eze 22:26 - “Her priests do violence to My law and profane My holy things. They make no distinction between the holy and the common, and they do not explain the difference between the clean and the unclean. They disregard My Sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.”
Eze 44:23 - “They must teach My people the difference between the holy and the common, and explain to them the difference between the clean and the unclean.”
Discernment is not optional. It is a command.
Does anyone here honestly think the unclean thing is the professed unbeliever? No, it is the nominal Christian.
Re-read Leviticus and delight in His law.
Todd Rhoades on Fri, June 03, 2005
BeHim,
You only choose to validate my point. You find fault and/or something to fight about in everything. (As you would say EVERYTHING). You even found fault when I quoted my mother. Not cool.
And, while you find fault with everyting (at least ten things you quoted in your last post; the tone with which you come across does seem arrogant (at least to me).
You said, “Do you consider what we say is NOT Biblical?” No… but you seem to think most of the things the rest of us have to say IS.
I don’t want this to become a mamsy pamsy blog about feelings. But I receive email and comments from people who are blasted apart who simply won’t come back. There is a difference between having this be a blog that pastors want to come to for inspiration, ideas, and debate, and having a blog that in which a few individuals bombard any new idea or thinking saying that it is unbiblical. Really, it’s like, we’re your evangelism field. Well, we’re already converted! http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
BeHim said, “It’s not whether I like it or not, it’s whether it’s from God or not. What if God doesn’t like it? Contrary, what if He does like it? Either way it really comes down to HIM, doesn’t it?”
Absolutely. But, BeHim… it seems like everything that is said here is something that you feel like God wouldn’t like. In essence, your God (who is the same as my God) doesn’t like very much at all. You have to allow for other opinions when there is liberty to do so.
Here’s a little insight into my background. I grew up in a very legalistic church that beat people over the head every week with right/wrong; dos/don’ts, telling everyone every little detail of what Jesus doesn’t like (and taking an awful lot of liberty in doing so). And to this day I don’t know why people ever went back. As a matter of fact, in a youth group of over 75 kids, there are probably 3 or 4 (myself included) that are still a part of any church. Why? Because they just couldn’t take it anymore.
Maybe that’s why I try to be such an encourager to pastors. Many times, pastors take a lot of unnecessary crap (for lack of a better word for it) off of their congregations. Many pastors and hurting; and need to be encouraged. That is one of the reasons I started this blog… so pastors could connect and feel a sense of community… a sense that “I’m not in this alone”. As it’s going though; pastors are signing on the blog wanting some comradery and friendship and support; only to find judgemental “thus saith the Lord” people who make them feel belittled.
Just like the youth group of 75; very few will come back; and we’ve totally missed out on what our goal was in the first place.
As many of you know, I’ve struggled with finding this balance for a couple months now; and I’m getting ready to make some changes and/or guidelines. When I finalize them, I’ll let everyone know.
But really, it’s comments to the effect that I’m trying to “shut up the Holy Spirit” that cut the deepest, and serve as the highest example of the type of comment that is personally and corporately abhorant. To be honest, BeHim, the Holy Spirit doesn’t need this blog to speak through… and if I continue to let you and a few others have their way then in a couple months it will be you and a handful of others here and that’s all. (Kind of reminds me of the woman that came up to the pastor after his sermon and said, “The Holy Spirit said that I should come to your house for dinner.” The pastor replied that the Holy Spirit hadn’t communicated that to him yet and that until He does, she should probably make other plans!)
As I’ve said before… I love debate; and a fair amount of debate is great, even here. But when it turns personal, it really does turn people off. And that’s not what I’m about.
Enough already. http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
Have a great weekend folks!
Todd
pdl on Fri, June 03, 2005
Todd,
I see no “mean fight” here. Iron sharpens iron. Every generation must grapple with issues that trend the Church from its Biblical course. One Scripture verse that seldom (dare I say never) finds its way on the fridge is Paul’s rail against the circumcision group of his day…“I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves” (Gal.5:12) This is Scripture and it reveals the Holy Spirit’s attitude about serious challenges to the Gospel. We could argue whether or not the issues we are discussing rise to that level. I believe they do. The entire axis of the Church has been tilted toward man because of the pragmatic germ embedded in the “church growth movement”. This is not a matter of incidentals…but, it involves ultimately the very preaching of the Gospel itself. For example, this pragmatism has morphed into a monster in the “emergent” church movement. We are now being told that we should not make propositional truth claims to post modern sinners because they cannot relate to the Gospel. This is exactly the wrong course to take. Paul confronted the “premodern culture” of his day with the unique claims of Christ under the anointing of the Holy Spirit in clearest of terms…Acts 17 needs to be revisited today. Many of us are discerning a great and terrible move away from Christ’s intent for His Church at the hands of well-meaning (perhaps) American evangelical icons who have brought forth “success strategies” that are clearly outside of the Biblical pattern. How does Rick Warren go from Holy, Holy, Holy to Purple Haze. Where do the Apostles sing such things…there is a “back-door” coup going on as we open the front door to a message twisting methodology that is putting the desires of unregenerate man ahead of the clearly defined Christ-centered purposes of the church.
pdl
BeHim on Fri, June 03, 2005
SPCT WRITES:
I just completed a personal study of Leviticus. Has anyone read the clean/unclean rules in Leviticus lately? Note it applies to those WITHIN the congregation and does NOT apply to those without. It was the priests responsibility (not just right) to determine clean/unclean.
I just went through Leviticus in March and yes, it was wonderful! I’m beginning over in Genesis right now. Keep in mind, the Jews of the New Testament were required to know the Old Testament Pentatuech and it’s because of this “foundation” that Paul could expound so intensly on the Gospel. It is intertwined throughout the Old Testament and beautiful in understanding the fullness of God and His Word.
God be with you!
PDL WRITES:
This is Scripture and it reveals the Holy Spirit’s attitude about serious challenges to the Gospel. We could argue whether or not the issues we are discussing rise to that level. I believe they do. The entire axis of the Church has been tilted toward man because of the pragmatic germ embedded in the “church growth movement”. This is not a matter of incidentals…but, it involves ultimately the very preaching of the Gospel itself.
Jesus and the Apostles fought many of these battles before us, and many after them and between us (like for example, St. Augustine).
There is nothing new under the sun.
A secular book I suggest you read PDL is “War and Anti-War” by Andy TOffler. He is a “futurist” that many governements consider a leader in “worldly prophecy”. He gives a keen insight into what I would suggest is a day when many of us (Believers), will be considered “religious radicals” (should sound familiar as the term is used almost daily in the news or also known today as…. “terrorists”) and guess who will be turning us in? Not “the world” but the cooperating “religious right” (those who are in “the church” but feel perfectly okay with “telling” who are the “trouble makers” in their religion/denomination).
John Hanner on Sat, June 04, 2005
Wow. First, thanks pdl for the links to “Ten Shekels and a Shirt.” That really hit home. Second, all I can ask is that we realize that we serve an awfully big God. That is, what we see as differences, God may see diversity. Big or small, traditional or contemporary, God uses us as He sees fit. As long as Third, God gains the glory, not only in the end but how we go about it. And when I say how we go about it, I do not mean technology or style, but in a godly way that is doctrinally sound and true to the Gospel. It is through the unity of the body that others see Christ in us. Let us not betray that calling.
I know I have my preferences in church structure and approach to ministry. But as I attend seminary for the second year now, I have truly appreciated the depth and breadth of worship styles, variations in non-core doctrine God can use. We can differ, but let’s remember we are brothers and sisters in Christ. I cannot say I saw anyone heretical here.
It is almost a microcosm of how we got so many denominations…
And Todd - this is necessary. Certainly, some may do a drive by criticism, or to unload in an unworthy way, but from what I can see, most are sharing from a desire to build the body. I would say this topic brought out a lot of passion.
Thanks all, and to God be the glory.
Michael on Sun, June 05, 2005
Brothers,
I’m speaking to those who contend for the faith. To those who uphold the Gospel of Jesus Christ and do not faint in the heat of the day. To those who through denomination and sects are separated. To those who have been baptized into Gods Holy Spirit. To the brotherhood of men and woman who by the Spirit forms the body of Christ. To the disciples who are in Christ, to those who by His Spirit have been enlightened in their understanding to the present situation we find ourselves in. To those who understand that the only way to salvation is to abide in Christ, so He may live through us, to His glory and to God our Fathers glory, Amen
Brothers,
The forces that are lined up against us are great and seem over whelming, but they will not over take us, because He who is in us is greater then he who is in the world. I’m saying this by faith and not because I see any real change (yet) of heart in our Church today. We are talking about Church growth here and when I refer to Church I’m referring to the body of Christ (I say this incase someone thinks I’m going off subject, I’m not!). I’ve read your words here in these blogs and have been encouraged by your faith towards God and His truth according to His Word and Spirit.
Brothers,
What do you think God is thinking about us right now? Come on, you know, you have the mind of Christ if the Spirit lives in you. The very thoughts of God through His Spirit are in your head, what is the Spirit telling you? Is God revealing to you how pleased He is with us? Is He saying, look at the wonderful work my servants are doing in my name? Is He saying, look how the body of my Son Jesus has held together?
Who’s to blame here Brothers, God or us?
Brothers,
Was it not Christ who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists and some to be pastors and teachers? Why? Was it not to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up? Built up for what purpose? Was it not that we might reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Is God pleased with the way we are preparing God’s people for works of service? Is He pleased with the way we have built up the body of Christ? The Spirit says, NO, He is not pleased with us! We don’t talk about how the body is being built up, rather we talk about how to stop it form being torn down even more. I am convinced each one of us who is led by His Spirit understands how to stop the tear down and begin to build up the body again, but it is our choice. So why is the body torn down? Is it not, because we have not properly prepared God’s people for works of service towards each other, because we have not properly done this, the body is not built up in the Spirit of Christ? What is the proof of this? We only need to look for the fruit.
Brothers,
We have been given by God a great responsibility through and by His Spirit to prepare Gods people for works of service, so the body may be built up in Christ, so that we might reach (unity in the faith.) Let us tell God, brothers, how we’ve been able to accomplish this (unity in the faith), this fruit in reality doesn’t exist does it brothers. No brothers, there isn’t any fruit on this fig tree is there, even though we are in season. We are divided into different sects and we quarrel with each other over what?
What is the definition of a sect: a group of people having a common leadership, set of opinions, philosophical doctrine, political principles, etc., specif. a faction of a larger group.
One of you says, “I follow this sect of Christianity” another “I follow this sect Christianity ” and still another “I follow this sect Christianity” and still another “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was your sect crucified for you? Were you baptized into your sect?
Brothers,
If we can’t reach (unity in the faith) how are we to reach unity in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ? God appeals to us, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of us agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among us and that we may be perfectly united in mind and thought. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.
Brothers,
If we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.
Brothers,
When I think of Church growth, I don’t think of numbers, I think of spiritual growth. But unless we are willing to follow His Spirit and work towards unity in the faith it will not be possible. If any of you wish to work towards this goal of unity let me know.
In Christ Always
Michael
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