How Would You Respond to This Lesbian?
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Mon, September 21, 2009
- (60) comments so far
How would you reply to this lesbian?
I was chatting with friends the other night, and we came across the topic of Christianity.
One of my friend, let's call her A, is 31. And my other friend, B.
Me: So,how did you two (A and B) meet again?
A: We met at a church. I was a church leader and B was one of my 'students' there.
Me: (confused) Why did you stop going back to church then?
A: I didn't. They (church people) said that I must repent of my "so-called" sins. If not, I can't return there. And I didn't repent because really, what has my sexual orientation gotta do with my faith?
It's really very pathetic how Christians drive us away from church just because of our sexuality. You see, one thing I found out about these self-proclaimed Christians is that they don't really follow what the Bible says most of the time, but when it comes to the homosexuality part, yes they tend to get very serious about it. Which is, in here, discrimination again. So tell me, pastors, didn't God tell you to love your neighbor as yourself? Why do people have to make drama out of our sexual orientation and kick us out of Church when 'normal' heterosexual people cheats and lie and do all kinds of other 'evil' things?
Seriously... how would you respond?
If you're gonna type all the verses about homosexuality is a sin, stop now. Seriously. I will delete your comment. That's not what this post is about. Those have already been used on this girl. They didn't work.
Some of the comments here really give some good insight...
My question for you... doesn't she have a valid complaint that we put homosexuality up on a pedestal while we look the other way at heterosexual sins? Not always, but many times, we look at affairs and divorce as just things people go through. We sit them off the choir or praise team for a few months, then we're good.
Should/how should the church reach out to this girl?
Do we really believe she needs Jesus?
If so, how do we reach her? Seriously. How do we reach her, holding true to our beliefs that homosexuality is wrong biblically, but knowing that that will be the ONE THING in her life that will keep her from Christ.
Your thoughts?
Comments
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pastor robby on Mon, September 21, 2009
@carl redding But I will not and am not called to try to convict people of their sin!
Brother Carl, my sins are available upon request and I would answer to them with the shed blood of Jesus the same as you I’m sure.
Where I think we differ is regarding my pointing out sin which I do viz. the Biblical message and convicting someone of them, the work of the HS, I see these as two different things. it seems you do not. Brother Carl, I’m sure you are great preacher/pastor and Christian, please accept my apology for offending you.
Dave McPherson on Mon, September 21, 2009
That is a difficult situation. She was a leader in a church and was later asked to leave. Does she consider herself a follower of the way of Jesus? That would definitely be a starting point for discussion. Depending on where she’s at with God, she should be welcome to attend church. If she wants to get involved in other aspects of church life (i.e. volunteering, serving in ministry, leadership), I don’t really care if she feels a pull toward females. My question is less about her stated sexual orientation and more about her willingness to submit to Christ’s lordship over any of her preferences.
I think that homosexuality is a little stickier than it ought to be b/c we’ve made such a big deal about it as conservative evangelicals. This has become an identity issue for the homosexual community. But our identity as Christ followers is not and should not be in our sexual orientation, our pet sin, or anything other than Christ. I’d really encourage this woman to re-think her identity. If she can say that it’s rooted in Christ and not in her homosexuality, than we’ve got a starting point. If not, that’s ok too. After all, thank God he accepts us as we are and not as we ought to be! God’s grace is sufficient. Would I allow her to get involved in leadership in church? No. Would I tell her that in the first conversation? No. I’d emphasize the identity issue and encourage her to keep pressing into God. Does God accept her as is? Absolutely. Does God accept others (including myself) as is? Absolutely. Does God want any of us to stay as we are today? NO. His plan for our lives is so much more than we can really imagine. I’d also look for opportunities to continue the conversation and do a lot of intercession for this precious woman who is loved by God and is deceived (as I’m sure we all are in some way).
Richard on Mon, September 21, 2009
My response would be something along the lines of
And see where the conversation goes from there, because there is a personal life and a personal walk with/towards God that can too easily be ignored because of the outrage she feels and the macro-level question of how the church should deal with sexuality, orientation and related issues.
In short, I’d (ideally) try to see how I can help the person in front of me move towards God instead of talking about an issue or a policy.
CindyK on Mon, September 21, 2009
Peter,
Maybe you’ve been a Christian a lot longer than I have, and because of that have a much better grasp on judging others in the Church. I’ve only been a Christian for 3 years, and during that time I’ve come to know that without His grace, I’m a goner. I would never presume to judge another person, inside or outside the Church.
I hope that others would point out my sins with love and grace, and I pray that I will be able to do that for others. But no I’m not going to judge them. And actually I hope I’m never to the point where I’m able to do that.
CS on Mon, September 21, 2009
Here’s a simple solution:
1. Treat all sins with the gravity which they are due. Sexual sins are identified as having a greater weight in the Bible because they are against the body, heterosexual and homosexual alike.
2. Exercise proper church discipline. For someone who has gone through the Matthew 18 process and remains unrepentant, they are to be treated as someone who is not saved (which means we love them and hope they come to saving faith).
3. As it says in the Bible, we should mark those that cause division in teaching and point out sin so that everyone will fear. This does mean making judgment calls in line with Scripture.
4. We preach the Gospel in truth and love. This includes the aspects of God’s Law and Grace. We hope and pray for godly sorrow that leads to repentance. And we stand ready to welcome that person back with open arms. But we do not welcome an ongoing sinful lifestyle—repentance demonstrated is a must.
—
CS
Pastor Ken on Mon, September 21, 2009
she’s right, the church has elevated homosexuality
above heterosexual sins such as adultery & fornication
sin is sin although homosexuality is called an abomination
however it’s important not to exclude homosexuals from
the opportunity of receiving the love, forgiveness, &
restoration of Jesus Christ. we must do a better job of
being patient with them while going the extra mile
before taking it upon ourselves to cut them off from God’s great love.
Lee C. on Mon, September 21, 2009
If we assume that homosexual sexual activity is a sin (that debate is ongoing and not fully resolved), the local church that these two are involved in would not have any evidence that they are committing such sins unless someone actually sees them in the act.
Many people sit in church and commit sins without making any efforts to repent, but their sins are personal and not apparent to the other people like an open homosexual couple would be (e.g. greed, unmarried couples who have sex, people who lust, people who have hate in their hearts but do not show it outwardly, addictions, etc.)
We couldn’t ever drag most of those people in front of the church because we can’t readily identify them. Just think, how can you pick a greedy person apart from a giving person just by looking at them? However, it is usally very easy to pick out homosexuals or people we think might be gay from the stereotypes our society has on gay people.
If the pastors of the church in question feel convicted to preach on homosexuality, then they certainly should not stop for this couple’s sake. However, dragging them in front of the church for some kind of trial or expelling them from the congregation would be unfair because there is no practical way in which we could do the same thing to all types of sin.
If I were a leader in this church, I would try to continue to love them and support the same way I would for any straight person, but I would not compromise my vision or message for any person or group.
Lynda on Mon, September 21, 2009
Deception keeps us from seeing the truth. We can believe the lie….live the lie…but it doesn’t change the truth. All sin is equal, but the sin of adultery, homosexuality, fornication - breaks a covenant. These involve relationships in the joining together of two people. It takes two to make a covenant where you promise, before God, to remain faithful to one person only in such a way that God designed. If God wasn’t interested in how life was created, he would have made two males, or two females…we would be asexual. He designed each male and each female to be unique. He created our bodies to meet together in a way to create life and enjoy each other. Anything outside of that is unnatural. We are called to live God’s Word that honors him. Unfortunately, we live in a world-view of Christianity that has changed the belief system where it suits the ideals of those who choose to compromise. This makes it more difficult to live the Christian life and teach your children to understand Truth.
So goes the other questions, how do we reach her; does she need Jesus. My answer: We have a nephew that is homosexual and has a live-in partner. Recently, we lost three loved ones on that side of the family. My husband and I were talking about our nephew - what will we do if we are alive when either he dies or his partner dies; how would we respond. It was a no brainer, one that didn’t take but a very few seconds to answer: we would love and comfort him because we love him; and in all honesty, not sure how we would respond to his partner if our nephew passed away first. All in all, I trust we would respond in such a way that is honorable to the Lord. My husband has a brother that married his mistress. How hard is that one! It took several years to be comfortable in her presence. It is a choice we made to love her unconditionally. I am a product of sexual abuse by those who supposedly cared about me. Do I love that person who did this? Yes, but only through the eyes of the Lord as my flesh is not able to. Do they need Jesus? Absolutely! Only He can change their hearts. Our job is to pray for the scales to be removed from their eyes so they will see Truth. I pray that for each of us concerning our daily lives, period. We all could us that, right?
pastor robby on Mon, September 21, 2009
amen to Richard “In short, I�d (ideally) try to see how I can help the person in front of me move towards God instead of talking about an issue or a policy. “
amen to CS all four points.
Jjoe on Mon, September 21, 2009
This country is founded on greed, so that everything from health care to justice to education to political representation is tied to a person’s wealth.
We do this unashamedly and unrepentantly, even though Jesus Himself told us, more than once and very clearly, how hard it is for a rich person to enter heaven.
Our infant mortality rate is a national sin. Our failure to provide health care to all people is no different than abortion. We kill children because it is cheaper and more convenient than life.
Condemning homosexuality is what we Americans do to distract ourselves from the millstone of greed, pride and self-centeredness hanging around our necks.
Paul Allen on Tue, September 22, 2009
�Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God� (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). There is a tendency to declare homosexuality as the worst of all sins. While it is undeniable, biblically speaking, that homosexuality is immoral and unnatural (Romans 1:26-27), in no sense does the Bible describe homosexuality as an unforgivable sin. Nor does the Bible teach that homosexuality is a sin Christians will never struggle against.
Perhaps that is the key phrase in the question of whether it is possible to be a gay Christian: �struggle against.� It is possible for a Christian to struggle with homosexual temptations.
Many homosexuals who become Christians have ongoing struggles with homosexual feelings and desires. Some strongly heterosexual men and women have experienced a �spark� of homosexual interest at some point in their lives. Whether or not these desires and temptations exist does not determine whether a person is a Christian.
The Bible is clear that no Christian is sinless (1 John 1:8,10). While the specific sin / temptation varies from one Christian to another, all Christians have struggles with sin, and all Christians sometimes fail in those struggles (1 Corinthians 10:13).
What differentiates a Christian�s life from a non-Christian�s life is the struggle against sin. The Christian life is a progressive journey of overcoming the �acts of the flesh� (Galatians 5:19-21), and allowing God�s Spirit to produce the �fruit of the Spirit� (Galatians 5:22-23).
Yes, Christians sin, sometimes horribly. Sadly, sometimes Christians are indistinguishable from non-Christians. However, a true Christian will always repent, will always eventually return to God, and will always resume the struggle against sin.
But the Bible gives no support for the idea that a person who perpetually and unrepentantly engages in sin can indeed be a Christian. Notice 1 Corinthians 6:11, “And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”
First Corinthians 6:9-10 lists sins that, if indulged in continuously, identify a person as not being redeemed�not being a Christian.
Often, homosexuality is singled out from this list. If a person struggles with homosexual temptations, that person is presumed to be unsaved. If a person actually engages in homosexual acts, that person is definitely thought to be unsaved.
However, the same assumptions are not made, at least not with the same emphasis, regarding other sins in the list: fornication (pre-marital sex), idolatry, adultery, thievery, covetousness, alcoholism, slander, and deceit. It is inconsistent, for example, to declare those guilty of pre-marital sex as �disobedient Christians,� while declaring homosexuals as definitively non-Christians.
Is it possible to be a gay Christian? If the phrase �gay Christian� refers to a person who struggles against homosexual desires and temptations � yes, a �gay Christian� is possible.
However, the description �gay Christian� is not accurate for such a person, since he/she does not desire to be gay, and is struggling against the temptations. Such a person is not a �gay Christian,� but rather is simply a struggling Christian, just as there are Christians who struggle with fornication, lying, and stealing.
If the phrase �gay Christian� refers to a person who actively, perpetually, and unrepentantly lives a homosexual lifestyle � no, it is not possible for such a person to truly be a Christian and 1 Corinthians 5:11 clearly requires us to not associate or even eat with them. But verses 9-10 imply the unsaved (homosexual or anyone) should be welcomed to hear the gospel so that they may be saved.
Pastor Chris on Tue, September 22, 2009
The Christian Church has got to come to terms with the fact that the Biblical world view and the modern practice of homosexuality are not compatible…just like the Biblical world view acceptance of slavery is not compatible with modern sensibilities. But the real message is about God’s love for us and ours for each other…and that transcends any world view. I have faith in the church and its ability to change.
Steve Long on Tue, September 22, 2009
Sin is not this thing or that thing. It is an attitude that eventually shows some kind of unpleasant fruit. We know people by their fruit. We can certainly love people without making their fruit an issue but loving them doesn’t mean that we must allow them to lead in the church family as false teachers or representatives of their idea of God’s rainbow colored purpose.
Jesus said, “If you love me you will keep my commandments.” And I John 2:3 says: We know we have come to know Him if we keep his commands.” Okay, so what we are aiming at is fully knowing God. I Cor. 13:12 says that we will accomplish that at some point (maybe not in this life) but this strengthens the case that seeking to know the mind and heart of our Creator is a very important indeavor. There is not room for excusing the sin that crops up from our disobedient attitudes. Hatred is a sin but if one confesses it as such and deals with God about it appealing for His mind on the matter of hatred then we are still being sanctified. Sanctification, or the process in which God deals with each of our disobedient attitudes stops when we refuse to consider God’s expressed, revealed mind on our conduct and attitudes. It seems that what I am hearing from some quarters here is that the scripture on Homosexuality or adultry (or any other rebellious thinking) are not entirely relevant as though the word ‘LOVE’ trumps God’s revealed mind on the subject. The more we (followers of Jesus) “know’ God the less we sin. We have His mind and His Spirit.. This is where our hope is aimed and there are some who will not see God’s purpose this way. Let them go in peace. We are not up to the task of convincing determined people of the purposes of God that they refuse to see.
From time to time we are accused of being judgmental and this is a tricky accusation. In I Cor. 6 Paul makes the argument that there is one place that we are to judge. That is in the Church, in the fellowship. When one openly claims to be a follower of Jesus (in the fellowship) and practices things that God has expressly spoken against then we must make a judgment. We are given no such instruction about the unbeleiver. Unfortunately we practice the reverse of this. We give miles of rope to people in our midst who claim to follow Jesus but are making no effort to know the mind of God on their disobedience and we judge and indict those outside the fellowship whom Jesus was bent on saving and not judging.
Matt Parkins on Tue, September 22, 2009
We would do well to remember that we are here to draw people to God, not to convert them to hetrosexuality.
Though to be honest I don’t know any churches over here in the UK that would “drive lesbians away” - sure they won’t get into a position of leadership in non-liberal churches - but driven away? I don’t see that over here at all. I think the problem lies with the fact the world defines people by their sexuality and the church is, once again, defining people the way the world does rather than seeing people as God sees them.
I would respond to the girl above by reminding her of the difference between God and the Church. We need to trust God to convict people of sin - sure we don’t endorse their lifestyle or put them in a position of leadership - but a change of heart has to be precipitated by God.
jac1962 on Tue, September 22, 2009
You can’t do anything but try to love people like this. She would certainly be allowed to attend our services, but under no circumstance would she be allowed to do any ministry. I would not remove her from the congregation unless she was being disruptive (like opposing our teaching verbally - she’s already doing it with her lifestyle).
This woman DOES NOT have an understanding problem - she has a belief problem - check out Jesus’s conversation with Nicodemus in John 3:10-12 - Nicodemus did not understand Jesus BECAUSE he did not believe - not the other way around. So you have to approach her from that standpoint - cuz that’s what Jesus did (you can also check out John 6:60-64 - same idea)
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