Organ replaced with Guitars… Oh My!!!
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Tue, November 29, 2005
- Viewed 108
- (77) comments so far
If we can't agree on everything; then we agree on nothing.
Everything was very judgmental and legalistic toward the end of the church I grew up in (yes, they were killed off by legalism while I was off in college). The issues: hair length; card playing; sending kids to public school... you name it; they had a problem with it. If you didn't keep the list; you were 'in sin' and don't even think about hangin' with anybody who broke the rules.
It seems there aren't as many separatists today as there once were (although I think most of them blog!)... but the movement is still alive and well. Here is a great example...
You can find the link to the following here... (David W. Cloud, Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061, , http://www.wayoflife.org, 866-295-4143):
The October 29 issue of the Chattanooga Times Free Press (Chattanooga, Tennessee) featured a picture of Tennessee Temple University students worshipping to contemporary rock music during a Wednesday evening service. The accompanying article said:
"Beneath the 90-year-old stained glass at St. Andrews Center, rock music blares as worshippers in jeans and T-shirts fill the sanctuary. The weekly Wednesday night church service has all the markings of traditional worship--music, preaching and praying. But the choir and organ have been replaced with drums and an electric guitar. 'Each generation has different styles of music, and what churches have to realize is that we've got to meet those younger generations' needs,' said Dr. Danny Lovett, who preaches at the service and is president of Tennessee Temple University."
Where does the Bible say God's people should use the world's style of music? To the contrary, we are instructed to have spiritual music (Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16), which means music that is set apart unto God from this wicked world. See 1 Jn. 2:15-17; Jam. 4:4; Tit. 2:11-14; Rom. 12:2. While it is a sad thing for older graduates of this school to observe, it is not surprising to see Tennessee Temple and Highland Park Baptist Church take such a dramatic turn to a worldly philosophy. Lovett recently came to Temple from Jerry Falwell's Liberty Baptist University, and it is New Evangelical to the core. Billy Graham, the Prince of New Evangelicalism, has spoken at Liberty and has been praised by Falwell for his 'faithful ministry.' Liberty students are not warned about the heresy of Graham's ecumenical evangelism or of his unscriptural emphasize the positive, judge not philosophy. Liberty has hosted conferences for the radically ecumenical Promise Keepers as well as for Rick Warren. Biblical separation is rapidly fading from the agenda of a large body of former fundamentalist Baptists who are moving in the popular contemporary direction.
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My goodness... take out the organ and put in a guitar (by the way, there were many stringed instruments in the Bible); and suddenly we crossed the line from spiritual to unspiritual; from Godly to ungodly.
But here's the problem... someone is determining what music is spiritual and which music is unspiritual... which music is godly and which is ungodly.
The songs song 20 years ago at Tennessee Temple University (when the school was 'godly') were not written in Bible times. They were new at one time (just like the songs they sing now).
The electronic and/or pipe organ is not a biblical new testament instrument. If anything, guitars are closer to the 'original'. But many churches viewed the organ as 'ungodly' when it was introduced. There are churches still today who don't use any musical instruments. Again, someone has made the choice.
But since The Beatles and other 'rock' musicians use guitars; guitars are worldy. Who made that decision?
I don't hear anyone saying that we shouldn't use pianos in worship because Liberace was gay.
Or that we shouldn't wear ties to church because the worldy business community also wear ties to conduct their secular drugery.
But here's the main thing I noticed when I was a part of a separatist church... the church tended to concentrate on the negative... and once it started on one thing, it lead to a list of other evils (all of which the church had something against). That's what intrigued me about the above quote. All that it took for him to go off was that the organ was replaced by a guitar. This lead to all of the following...
--this all happened because the leader came from Liberty
--Libery is NeoEvangelical
--Billy Graham has spoken at Liberty
--Billy Graham is a heretic (and the Prince of New Evangelicalism, btw)
--Liberty students 'haven't been warned'
--They've worked with Promise Keepers and Rick Warren (it ALWAYS comes back to him, doesn't it?)
--Few are left but us... even the fundamentalists are moving in the 'popular contemporary direction'
How'd he get all that from one newspaper article?
I guess you'd have to have grown up a separatist to understand that one. (And I think I do).
It's sad... but I think I do.
Any thoughts? Any separatists among us? Welcome, from a former separatist! 
Todd
I grew up as a conservative, separatist Baptist. (Yes, I survived.) We didn’t fellowship with any other church in town. Actually, there was only one other church that we acknowledged that existed (and we really didn’t care for them very much). We didn’t even play basketball with other churches. We didn’t ‘smoke, chew, or run with girls who do’. So I feel that I kind of understand the separatist mindset. It goes a little something like this…
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Pete King on Tue, November 29, 2005
Todd,
I did’t grow up believing that way, but I experienced that doctrine as a kid. Most of my friends and the Christian school I attended carried those beliefs. I completely understand that kind of bondage. However, that’s not what scares me the most today. What scares me the most is that churches have removed their “Legalistic Ways” and yet still remain in bondage. I’ve seen churches that have drifted away from those old ties and have carried other traditions that still give the same results; hurt individuals and clickish communities. Exclusivity has destroyed most ministries where I live. Its one thing to believe that salvation is the only way to Heaven but a group of believers that are self consumed are no different than the legalistic teachers of old. We may look different and our music may sound contemporary, but our harmful methods are still present. I’m sure that most separtist would hold true to the belief system of “that’s they way we’ve always done it.” After all, that’s what makes them separate. By that I don’t mean that traditions are bad. In fact, it is my opinion that traditions are a good thing when not taught as doctrine and always put in check with Scripture. However, that’s the problem. We are still struggling with being exclusive. Rural communities as I have said on more than one occasion are especially hurting in this catagory. To accept the stranger is to deny the very life we have worked so hard to protect. What are we protecting really? Is it eternal or temporary? The answer is right in front of us but to accomplish such a task takes a people willing to admit their faults. We all have them and the sooner we admit it the sooner we can get rid of it(the legalism I mean). Just a thought. God bless.
Kevin on Tue, November 29, 2005
Oh my! I don’t read anywhere in the Bible that Jesus separted himself from people. Jesus ate and drank with sinners. I thought we were suppose to live like Jesus.
Bill on Tue, November 29, 2005
Todd:
I too grew up in a separatist environment and second everything you say. When I attended a major Christian University I was honestly shocked that there were believers from denominations other than our separatist association. I thank God that since then I have gone back and re-read the New Testament with open eyes and mind. I strongly believe that we need to follow Jesus’ example and behave as “friends of sinners.”
Bill
Ziessler on Tue, November 29, 2005
Pete, you have some very penetrating thoughts. Ones that parallel my experience. I was in a growing, vibrant (tended toward legalism, but the Spirit revailed most of the time)church with a firey vision. We lost the present pastor and acquired a new one who foster the “old” ways, however, he was young. The church presently, in my perspective, is dead and dieing. The attenders know it, but the leaders still affirm a “healthy” atmosphere. They have the contemporary music, they even have a new worship leader (who replaced me) who is even more talented than I, with a great heart, wonderful person. BUT! I question how long he will last. How soon will he face the “...get in line”, “stuff your convictions”, no time for “spirit-filled” worship, we need to cut your heart rendering prayers. They really haven’t changed a bit. In fact they went further and further into there own type of legalism and separatist ways. The issues weren’t the music, choir or organ, it was all about the heart. You can put a new coat of paint, slogans, and even a cafe in the mix, but underneath its the same “control” driven leagistic folks running the show.
And really legaism is nothing more than a guise for fear and insecurity of facing a terrifying world armed only with your faith and trust in the Lord and equipped with the gifts of the Spirit. Facing the world with only “faith” scares most legaistic, religious spirit folks to death.
Pastor Al on Tue, November 29, 2005
I like what has been already said. Let me just add a few thoughts from my experience. I grew up in a small church right down the street from where Calvary Chapel started. While Chuck Smith was baptizing thousands of young people and equipping a new generation, my small church sat in their smugness of being the “right” kind of Christian. It wasn’t until my early teens that the God led our church in a New direction, under new leadership that wasn’t afraid of the world, but rather wanted to see the world saved. God began a new work and the church grew and people came to know Christ. I look back on my two experiences and thank God he allowed me to experience what it is not to be serving him effectively and to serve him effectively.
I understand the “legalist” way, because it is at it’s foundation an “easy way.” Easy in the sense that one never has to grow, stretch or increase their faith for anything. Don’t let the title “legalist” however just apply to the “bun in the hair” type of Christian, there are plenty of legalist in the church today, and they just might be the ones without ties and wearing shorts! Like one has already said, if the heart doesn’t change, legalism will always be with us.
Blessings,
Pastor Al
Brian La Croix on Tue, November 29, 2005
“I don’t hear anyone saying that we shouldn’t use pianos in worship because Liberace was gay.
Or that we shouldn’t wear ties to church because the worldy business community also wear ties to conduct their secular drugery.”
Yes! I’ve made those very points numerous times.
Why can we play “Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee,” the music of which was written by Beethoven (not a Christian, and not written as a hymn…), but just watch out if Petra or Third Day come to town!
I think many Christians would prefer an album of hymns played by Liberace to a Third Day CD. Sad, but true.
I’ve also wondered why it’s not okay to dress casually for church, but it’s okay to dress like worldly mob bosses when they order a hit or corrupt Enron executives?
Oh well…
Here’s the question for which I’ve never received a satisfactory answer: what is the Biblical definition of “worldly,” how do you come to it, and how do you apply it consistently?
Brian
jhy on Tue, November 29, 2005
Interesting how music is even an issue. It is hardly emphasized or even mentioned in the NT. It really has little value in someone’s Chrstian walk. It’s an issue and shouldn’t be.
Todd on Tue, November 29, 2005
Brian,
That’s exactly my point. Some person is deciding what is worldly and what is not.
It would be one thing if the Bible said that worldly meant ‘electric guitars’ and ‘contemporary music’ or ‘suit and tie’. But it doesn’t.
Then some men step in and define what worldy is. And then tell everyone else to subscribe to their standard. If you don’t meet it, then you’re worldly (translated, unbiblical, unholy, heretic, apostate, heathen).
But they don’t get it: man is drawing the line; and man is subject to extreme failure more time than not.
Bam. Legalism.
There has to be balance (that seems to be my mantra the past couple weeks)…
Music is a super example. What is ‘spiritual music’ according to Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 looks different to me than it does to the writer above.
Todd
Ben E on Tue, November 29, 2005
jhy,
I completely disagree. In the Psalms alone there are numerous examples of music and singing and new songs being sung and called for as expressions of worship and praise!
As a Christian, I see, hear, sing and play music and it’s a major part (emphasis on PART) of my Christian “walk.”
To me, it’s one of God’s most wonderful gifts!
I do believe music can be abused and misused in the church. More often than not, it’s the narrow minded view that causes so much trouble.
Ben E
Ivana on Tue, November 29, 2005
I agree Ben E.
Music may hardly emphasized or even mentioned in the NT but there are many things not listed in the NT that numerous churches preach and insist on in our modern churches. FOr example, some believe wearing jeans is immoral but the NT does not tell us that! Another example, I have never read anywhere in the NT where people cannot have purple hair…. so, what exactly does that mean??
pdl on Tue, November 29, 2005
OK…I’ll bite…“Drugs, Sex and Rock-n-Roll”—They go together as expressions of our culture’s rebellion against God. Rock-n-Roll IS worldly…is there any arguement about that? By worldly I specifically mean that it is the world’s prefered mode of musical expression for its rebellion against God. Yes, I realize that I am inviting a history lesson on how “Amazing Grace” was sung to a bar tune…etc….yet I maintain that because Rock-n-Roll is synonymous with rebellion it (the style itself)carries with it a message/attitude/“spirit” of rebellion. What is wrong with making a distinction between how the world worships its gods and how we worship our True, Living and Holy God? If that makes me a “seperatist”, so be it!
pdl
Chris Rhodes on Tue, November 29, 2005
Hello to all my recovering Pharisee Brothers and Sisters,
Yep Todd, I too grew up extremely “Fundie” (We were the ones that put the Fun in Fundamentalist). I was KJV only and all of the rest until I went to Liberty University (it is amazing how much flack I have gotten from my Fundie brethren over that), there I learned how to separate what was social preferences from Biblical standards
It was also at Liberty that I met Danny Lovett who came on staff as I was finishing my undergraduate studies at LU. Let me say that Danny is an acquired taste, and that not everyone warms up to him at the same speed. My wife and I were a little shocked when Ten. Temple called him, but we both assumed that they were looking for him to come be the lightning rod for the changes that they needed to make (I guess that happened).
As to the usual canned response from the ultra-fundie camp, I too understand were they are coming from. I know for myself, that my motivation was never to be a jerk or to have an easy way out of the Christian life, actually to the contrary; I was convinced I needed to “contend for the faith” and to “fight the good fight” “wrestling against, principalities and powers, against spiritual darkness in high places”. In other words I was a Pharisee who was scared to death that if I (or if I allowed others) did not keep the faith pure that it would destroy the church and it would lead others to hell, all because I did keep the highest standards possible. I knew how to worship in truth (just like Jesus says of the Jews at the Samaritan well) I had just missed the worshipping in spirit part (truth that doesn’t bring freedom is not truth, it is only half truth.)
So what changed me and my ways? When I took Romans and heard my professor expound on how the weaker brother in Romans is the legalist, and I learned that the Holy Spirit is a lot more powerful than my failings (sooo the same Spirit that convicts me of sin can do the same for others to without me issuing them a rule book? Hmm who’d have thunk it).
So while we sometimes stand back and shake our heads at our brethrens actions, let’s remember that if not for the grace of Christ and the growth produced by the Spirit in our lives we would be with them. Remember, Paul was once one of us too, before he was transformed by grace!
liz on Tue, November 29, 2005
When my skirt was too short (above the 1 &1;/2 inches from the ground when kneeling) the principal ripped my hem out. Walking around like that taught me humility. It helped me understand grace to love others who had stupid regulations. When I left to attend public school to be a missionary and my salvation was questioned, I learned to look past those who have narrow views. Now when I quote scripture or hold to a standard at my “contemp” church I am called legalistic. Go figure!
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Todd on Tue, November 29, 2005
pdl,
my response would be, ok… that’s where you draw the line. To you, Rock n Roll is ‘synonymous with rebellion’. I assume you grew up in the 60s and saw all that rebellion first-hand. It resonates with you. You can’t separate the two. That’s fine.
I’m probably a tad bit younger than you; but Rock n Roll is NOT synonymous with rebellion to me. It never has been. And I don’t think that many people my age associate it with rebellion.
Might I suggest that if you were around when “Amazing Grace” or whatever was introduced from a bar; and if you were saved out of alcoholism, that you wouldn’t be able to separate the two either. But you didn’t live then; and you now love Amazing Grace (a great song, by the way).
All this is fine… what disgruntles me is when the people who draw the line in one place condemn others who draw the line in another. That’s my problem when things get out of hand at this blog… it’s from people drawing a line on a non-biblical issue; and try to make it a biblical issue for others.
Now before you think I’m going all liberal on you… I’m not. I’m very firm on the things the Bible takes a clear stand on.
In my ‘separatist’ days, we called them standards. The ‘standards’ were the rules we kept. Convictions, on the other hand, were what we would die for.
I guess what I’m saying is I don’t like it when people make their ‘standards’ into my ‘convictions’.
It’s late… I hope that makes some sense. http://www.mondaymorninginsight.com/images/smileys/smile.gif
Todd
soulpastor on Tue, November 29, 2005
I will jump in here!
I believe as stated earlier that since Jesus was a friend of sinners, we should be as well; so, I will love the separatists, because I have to. Hey, they have their law and now they really need Jesus; it seems to be a biblical pattern. That whole “live and die by” it stuff.
I love the “sex, drugs and rock and roll” comment. (Insert favorite saying from Napoleon Dynamite here _______________) I think the CHURCH must be careful in how it defines what worship is because most people reading this blog would have a hard time worshipping in an Indonesian, East Indian or other ethnic style, especially with their music, (personal experience). Cultural Context People! I think the church should be more focused on the fact that when we read Romans 1 there is a big list for people who have sold out with the darkest impulses and that…
29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed(XBOX 360) and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife(not found in legalistic churches), deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil(download music); they disobey their parents(and break curfew); 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.(sounds likes preachers kids) 32Although they know God’s righteous decree(sounds like them separatist fellas) that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Notice that gossip is between murders and God haters…ouch, nothing much about music though or style thereof. There are much more serious things that the CHURCH must clean up don’t you think?
Don’t shoot me because I used NIV!
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