Outreach at Gay Pride Day
- Posted by: Todd
- Posted on: Wed, June 08, 2005
- Viewed 254
- (100) comments so far
Christians Say Hello. Gay Activists say Hmmm.
The Times piece says... "Pastor Lucas hoped that Liquid, which is part of a conservative Baptist church that considers homosexuality a sin, could take a third position, avoiding both the scolds of some evangelical Christians and the acceptance of more liberal churches. Without endorsing homosexuality, he said: "We want to dismantle the invisible hierarchy of sin that many evangelicals promote that puts gays and lesbians at the top of the list. That sense of self-righteousness and superiority runs rampant in our church like a cancer."
It continues... "For the members of Liquid, an alternative ministry within Millington Baptist Church, the event was a mission into new territory. At a final strategy meeting last week, a handwritten sign in the back of the room listed reasons for the outreach, and the first was "to challenge stereotypes of 'Christians.' "
Mr. Lucas wore spiked hair and an Amsterdam Motorcycles T-shirt. He advised the church members not to get into arguments or try to convert anybody. "We're not going there to hand out tracts," he said. "These people have been marginalized and hurt, often by us.
"If they say, 'What are you doing here?' keep it simple. Just say, 'We're here to show you God's love.' "
Alternatively, Mr. Lucas said, they might draw criticism from other conservative Christians, including members of their parent church, which was not invited to participate. "People might say, 'So you think I have to change so God will love me?' " he said. "Or they'll say, 'So you're a gay church, huh. Baptists are coming around to gay marriage?' You just say to them, 'No, I'm just here to serve.' "
If all went well, he said, "we'll earn the wrath and condemnation of religious folks, and find more people on the fringe, much like it was for Jesus."
Seems like a balanced approach to me, and a good start. I think Jesus would treat homosexuals with respect, just as members of "Liquid" did. Jesus loves each of them as much as he loves you or me. You've often heard it said that you need to love the sinner and hate the sin... I think this is a great way to start the dialouge. Who knows if any progress was made; but nothing was hurt.
FOR DISCUSSION: Has your church done any outreach to groups like homosexuals? How was it received? How did it effect your church?
Just in my last post today, I said I don’t get political too much here, but this struck me as a positive development...We’ve all seen the "God Hates Fags" signs that so-called Christians take to protest the homosexual lifestyle. Pastor Tim Lucas takes a different approach that was noticed this week in the NY Times. On a hot seaside afternoon, about 150 people from his small church wore light blue T-shirts bearing the name of their ministry, Liquid, and gave out free bottles of water. The title of the article…
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4D Truth on Fri, July 01, 2005
Just thought I’d chime in here…
Daniel, Greg, Jeremy, after reading your posts all basically saying and agreeing that, we don’t choose our sexuality, we’re born with it, I’d have to say you’ve shed new light for me on this subject. You bring up an excellent point - why *would* God make us this way if it was sinful - it’s out of character with His nature.
I’m so glad you said this and brought this to light. You’ve really got something there Daniel when you ask “why it is so impossible to consider that being gay is an innate characteristic and orientation to life and sexuality that a specific percentage of the human race is born with.” Thank you so much for that statement. Now all the pedophiles, and people who are into bestiality have a God-given right to participate in their own form of free sexual expression. After all, why *would* it be so impossible to consider that the attraction that some older men have toward pubescent, pre-teen girls is an innate characteristic and orientation to life and sexuality that their specific percentage of the human race is born with?
You all may actually be on to something - who *are* those fundamentalist, scripturally based people - or ANYONE at that (lawyers, judges, Congress, etc….) - to tell *anyone* that having a desire to look at child porn, or having a desire for sexual intercourse with a child is wrong. After all, that’s the way God made those people. Those priests of the Roman Catholic church who abused all those kids - they couldn’t help it - they didn’t choose their sexual orientation and desires.
The youth pastors of the Protestant churches who seduce and have sex with the 11, 12 and 13 year old girls of their youth groups aren’t doing anything wrong because that’s the way God made them - they didn’t choose to be this way - they didn’t choose to be sexually attracted to them. If it was wrong, God would not have given them the desire to have sexual relations with children.
It’s interesting, we all condemn people like this - say they should be put in jail and have unmentionable things done to them for their hideous acts. But, that’s being judgmental! Why is it so inconceivable that when a pedophile says, ‘“This is who I am, by nature” the rest of us don’t have the ears to hear it.’ So sad.
The men and women who practice bestiality are not sick or perverted - they’re created by God, in His image and they’re just seeking to freely express their sexual desires like any heterosexual person. According to some on this board, since Leviticus 18:22 doesn’t really say that a man lying with a man as he does a woman is wrong, then that must mean Lev 18:23 doesn’t really condemn having sex with animals, either. Thank you for clearing this up and allowing people to practice this in good conscience!
I’m so glad you enlightened us with this logic. Now everyone, no matter how sick or perverted has a God-given reason to freely express and consummate their sexual desires.
A sinful hardened heart, leads to more sin and a more hardened heart. There truly are some stiff-necked people on here…. too bad they don’t know it.
Todd Rhoades on Fri, July 01, 2005
Greg and Jeremy,
As you know, I have stated that I feel that biblically, homosexuality is wrong. I would surely go about talking with you much differently than many here have however.
I’ve tried to pretty much stay out of the conversation… to just sit and watch what happens. I’ve not been real happy with both sides at times.
This is my take… we should be able to have a civilized conversation about our differences. Why can’t both sides just sit down at the table and discuss these things without everything getting so heated and judgmental? (Now that doesn’t mean that I think your thinking is correct… of course I think mine is… that’s why I think it!) But that doesn’t mean that I don’t treat you with respect and love.
Besides, I can honestly say that I’ve learned some things along the way. Like you said, no one has changed my mind or yours, but hopefully when rational, calm reasons are made for why both of us believe the way we do, we both gain some valuable insight.
Some here will think that I’m ‘soft on sin’; but that’s not it at all. I just don’t think we have to be tremendously judgemental to have the Holy Spirit work in each other’s lives. I think the conversation goes much further when respect is used. It’s just the way I’d rather do things.
Hope this all makes sense. Thanks, and I’ve appreciated the discussion.
Todd
Andrea on Fri, July 01, 2005
I am so thankful for this discussion and each of you that have contributed have great comments and insight. I myself, being a chrisitan in the church for a number of years as a musician and server have found one thing is true, that even throughout my years of going to church a relationship, and a personal relationship to Jesus is knowledge and power… I want to know him, I want to be more like him…There is something so special and in common that we all share in this post and that is the relationship to Jesus. In order to have a relationship with him, that means that there is something that we can “relate” to in him. This one thing is that many of us could be “praised” one week and “crucified” the next. For my brothers that define homosexuality I am the first to acknowledge as a loving Christian, that indeed in the Bible yes, it does say that the act is sinful..Many times in this context also, it says this along with idolatry and worshipping Idol Gods. In the story of Sodom and Gommorah, this story talked about the men “wanting to know the angels”.. This was a story of rudeness and not being kind to God’s people. Just think if you were coming to a new city and you had neighbors that were knocking at the door to “get to know you” regardless of heterosexual or homosexual orientation, how offensive and unGodly could that be.. Worship him in “spirit and in truth”. As ugly as it sounds, some people’s “truths” are different than others. Also, let’s look at the reality of this dilemma. What would an individual have to “gain” by professing the “truth” that they are indeed homosexual? Also, I wish to share this information because sometimes we as Christians can be “stuck on stupid” when it comes to using the Bible for what it is, a tool that gives us strength and hope and guides us to worship in “spirit and in truth” that allows us to get through this rehearsal. We can talk about Paul, Timothy and all these great men of God, but each of us have chapters of our own that are being written. When we get to that great day, what will God say about your own chapter? Growing and knowing in power is sharing indeed. Let’s look at a few findings from the American Psycholical Association of what sexual orientation is. Go to http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html
What Is Sexual Orientation?
Sexual Orientation is an enduring emotional, romantic, sexual or affectional attraction to another person. It is easily distinguished from other components of sexuality including biological sex, gender identity (the psychological sense of being male or female) and the social gender role (adherence to cultural norms for feminine and masculine behavior).
Sexual orientation exists along a continuum that ranges from exclusive homosexuality to exclusive heterosexuality and includes various forms of bisexuality. ######## persons can experience sexual, emotional and affectional attraction to both their own sex and the opposite sex. Persons with a homosexual orientation are sometimes referred to as gay (both men and women) or as lesbian (women only).
Sexual orientation is different from sexual behavior because it refers to feelings and self-concept. Persons may or may not express their sexual orientation in their behaviors.
What Causes a Person To Have a Particular Sexual Orientation?
There are numerous theories about the origins of a person’s sexual orientation; most scientists today agree that sexual orientation is most likely the result of a complex interaction of environmental, cognitive and biological factors. In most people, sexual orientation is shaped at an early age. There is also considerable recent evidence to suggest that biology, including genetic or inborn hormonal factors, play a significant role in a person’s sexuality. In summary, it is important to recognize that there are probably many reasons for a person’s sexual orientation and the reasons may be different for different people.
Is Sexual Orientation a Choice?
No, human beings can not choose to be either gay or straight. Sexual orientation emerges for most people in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed.
Can Therapy Change Sexual Orientation?
No. Even though most homosexuals live successful, happy lives, some homosexual or ######## people may seek to change their sexual orientation through therapy, sometimes pressured by the influence of family members or religious groups to try and do so. The reality is that homosexuality is not an illness. It does not require treatment and is not changeable.
However, not all gay, lesbian, and ######## people who seek assistance from a mental health professional want to change their sexual orientation. Gay, lesbian, and ######## people may seek psychological help with the coming out process or for strategies to deal with prejudice, but most go into therapy for the same reasons and life issues that bring straight people to mental health professionals.
What About So-Called “Conversion Therapies”?
Some therapists who undertake so-called conversion therapy report that they have been able to change their clients’ sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual. Close scrutiny of these reports however show several factors that cast doubt on their claims. For example, many of the claims come from organizations with an ideological perspective which condemns homosexuality. Furthermore, their claims are poorly documented. For example, treatment outcome is not followed and reported overtime as would be the standard to test the validity of any mental health intervention.
The American Psychological Association is concerned about such therapies and their potential harm to patients. In 1997, the Association’s Council of Representatives passed a resolution reaffirming psychology’s opposition to homophobia in treatment and spelling out a client’s right to unbiased treatment and self-determination. Any person who enters into therapy to deal with issues of sexual orientation has a right to expect that such therapy would take place in a professionally neutral environment absent of any social bias.
Is Homosexuality a Mental Illness or Emotional Problem?
No. Psychologists, psychiatrists and other mental health professionals agree that homosexuality is not an illness, mental disorder or an emotional problem. Over 35 years of objective, well-designed scientific research has shown that homosexuality, in and itself,is not associated with mental disorders or emotional or social problems. Homosexuality was once thought to be a mental illness because mental health professionals and society had biased information. In the past the studies of gay, lesbian and ######## people involved only those in therapy, thus biasing the resulting conclusions. When researchers examined data about these people who were not in therapy, the idea that homosexuality was a mental illness was quickly found to be untrue.
In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association confirmed the importance of the new, better designed research and removed homosexuality from the official manual that lists mental and emotional disorders. Two years later, the American Psychological Association passed a resolution supporting the removal. For more than 25 years, both associations have urged all mental health professionals to help dispel the stigma of mental illness that some people still associate with homosexual orientation.
Can Lesbians, Gay Men, and Bisexuals Be Good Parents?
Yes. Studies comparing groups of children raised by homosexual and by heterosexual parents find no developmental differences between the two groups of children in four critical areas: their intelligence, psychological adjustment, social adjustment, and popularity with friends. It is also important to realize that a parent’s sexual orientation does not dictate his or her children’s.
Another myth about homosexuality is the mistaken belief that gay men have more of a tendency than heterosexual men to sexually molest children. There is no evidence to suggest that homosexuals are more likely than heterosexuals to molest children.
Why Do Some Gay Men, Lesbians and Bisexuals Tell People About Their Sexual Orientation?
Because sharing that aspect of themselves with others is important to their mental health. In fact, the process of identity development for lesbians, gay men and bisexuals called “coming out”, has been found to be strongly related to psychological adjustment?the more positive the gay, lesbian, or ######## identity, the better one’s mental health and the higher one’s self-esteem.
Why Is the “Coming Out” Process Difficult for Some Gay, Lesbian and ######## People?
For some gay and ######## people the coming out process is difficult, for others it is not. Often lesbian, gay and ######## people feel afraid, different, and alone when they first realize that their sexual orientation is different from the community norm. This is particularly true for people becoming aware of their gay, lesbian, or ######## orientation as a child or adolescent, which is not uncommon. And, depending on their families and where they live, they may have to struggle against prejudice and misinformation about homosexuality. Children and adolescents may be particularly vulnerable to the deleterious effects of bias and stereotypes. They may also fear being rejected by family, friends,co-workers, and religious institutions. Some gay people have to worry about losing their jobs or being harassed at school if their sexual orientation became well known. Unfortunately, gay, lesbian and ######## people are at a higher risk for physical assault and violence than are heterosexuals. Studies done in California in the mid 1990s showed that nearly one-fifth of all lesbians who took part in the study and more than one-fourth of all gay men who participated had been the victim of a hate crime based on their sexual orientation. In another California study of approximately 500 young adults, half of all the young men participating in the study admitted to some form of anti-gay aggression from name-calling to physical violence.
What Can Be Done to Overcome the Prejudice and Discrimination the Gay Men, Lesbians, and Bisexuals Experience?
Research has found that the people who have the most positive attitudes toward gay men, lesbians and bisexuals are those who say they know one or more gay, lesbian or ######## person well—often as a friend or co-worker. For this reason, psychologists believe negative attitudes toward gay people as a group are prejudices that are not grounded in actual experiences but are based on stereotypes and prejudice.
Furthermore, protection against violence and discrimination is very important, just as it is for other minority groups. Some states include violence against an individual on the basis of his or her sexual orientation as a “hate crime” and 10 U.S. states have laws against discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.
Why is it Important for Society to be Better Educated About Homosexuality?
Educating all people about sexual orientation and homosexuality is likely to diminish anti-gay prejudice. Accurate information about homosexuality is especially important to young people who are first discovering and seeking to understand their sexuality—whether homosexual, ########, or heterosexual. Fears that access to such information will make more people gay have no validity—information about homosexuality does not make someone gay or straight.
Are All Gay and ######## Men HIV Infected?
No. This is a commonly held myth. In reality, the risk of exposure to HIV is related to a person’s behavior, not their sexual orientation. What’s important to remember about HIV/AIDS is it is a preventable disease through the use of safe sex practices and by not using drugs.
Where Can I Find More Information About Homosexuality?
http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html.
Lastly, I want to acknowledge that it says that in the Bible it does say “unclean” people that commit vile acts will not inherit the kingdom of Heaven Ephesians 5-3, but we have that wonderful anchor named Jesus that came who gave us mercy that endures forever as well as that wonderful thing called grace. Now we must ask this question, after reading this information about orientation, can a person that is homosexual worship in “spirit and truth”?Absolutely. To my fellow brothers that ask the question about homosexuality as a sin, What are you gonna do when you see the “thief” already in paradise as mentioned in Luke 23-43 that acknowledges, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation: And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this man hath done nothing amiss. And he said unto Jesus, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. Will you ones that are so loving these homosexuals by pointing out this sin, know what to say when you have to come across the “thief” already in paradise?
Glenn on Fri, July 01, 2005
I really appreciated your post, Charles. The passage from Romans 2 is a powerful one, which ought to stop ALL our mouths (heterosexual and homosexual, alike). It invites us to see the magnitude of OUR sin, contrasted with the overwhelming kindess of God’s grace, mercy, and forgiveness found in Jesus Christ?
Christ paid our debt. We have been set free, and are now new creations in Him. So… as new creations… What if we stopped yelling at each other, joined hands and humbly bowed before Him and His throne? What if we confessed our malice, sin, and hostility toward each other - (as evidenced by our battering each other with the Bible, our sarcasm, our violating the number of posts permitted, our hammering each other with the truth “for their good”)? What if we ALL invited Him to change US in whatever way He desired including giving Christ lordship over our hetero AND homosexuality, (remembering that our bodies are not our own - that we’ve been bought with a price)?
What if we learned to love, listen, hear each other’s stories - and cherish each other as our brother or sister?
Perhaps then, the world what stop laughing at or ignoring us Christians, and come knocking at our door seeking what we have found in Christ.
Glenn - “Liquid” pastor
CharlesC on Fri, July 01, 2005
Glenn,
This is very interesting. Something that occurred to me is this: by straining so hard to marginalize certain populations by constantly harping on their “sins,” are we not blinding ourselves to the grace of Jesus Christ? Rene Girard’s writings on culture state that the makers of culture must perpetuate a certain kind of violence on those outside that culture in order to keep them down.
Tolerance is simply the recognition of a sovereign God. It neither condemns nor condones, because if a sovereign God is in effect, it’s none of our business.
When the terrorists flew into the Twin Towers, Jerry Seinfeld and Chris Rock organized a comedy benefit for the city fire and police families who lost dads and moms in that conflagration. They appeared on the Today show, and were asked by Katie Couric, “What do you think about the idea that the terrorists were doing what they did for God?”
Chris Rock, without skipping a beat, replied “Nah…they didn’t believe in God. ‘Cause they thought God needed their help. Like he was napping or something and they needed to fix things here on earth.”
Guys, SIN convicts us. It’s not our job to convict people. Our job is to be salt and light. In other words, to die to ALL sin and live to Christ. God does not need our help convicting others of their sins. He sent us forth to make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. Period. We don’t set rules. Like “You get it…and, no, you don’t get it because your sin is more grievous to me than mine.” That’s simply self-justification and when I do that, I can see Christ flee from me.
My job as a Christian is to show others how my life is on fire for God today! And not in the “I’m not perfect, I’m just forgiven” sort of way. But in the visceral, moment-by-moment walk with a God that blows me away everyday by His plans for me. I am not here to soft-sell God either. Because I didn’t buy God. He BOUGHT ME! Against my will! I’d curse at him if I had voice anymore to curse at him. And he didn’t do it so I could now be holier than ANYONE, or use the excuse that I am just telling God’s truth to justify myself, or to worship the idol I have made of the condemnation of others in the name of the Condemned One who rose for the world.
People desire Christ. They don’t desire more weight heaped upon them. Thank God for you, Glenn, and for Liquid, for heaping love on everyone—not just the ones that don’t offend our tender sensibilities. Amen.
-C
4D Truth on Fri, July 01, 2005
I received this reply in my personal e-mail regarding my post above about pedophiles:
“What a bizarre man you must be…. That was quite the rant. You think
you’ve got it together but you really understand so very little. You will just never get it…”
The person who wrote this is right about one thing - it WAS quite the rant. It was very ignorant - I admit that. I meant it to be. I meant it to be way over the top to show how ignorant this line of reasoning is. However, I didn’t come up with this on my own. I actually had a person convicted for groping a teenage girl (victim under 18) basically say this very thing to me. So - I DO - understand, because I’ve had it explained to me. This person has done time in prison for this act. I’ve moved on to another church since then and lost touch with him, so I don’t know if he’s out or not, or if he’s even sought help.
However, as we talked about his upcoming trial, he told me that this was his sexual orientation and he could not understand why God made him that way - attracted to young girls (ages 11-14). Sound familiar?
Maybe I went about it the wrong way - and I needed that private e-mail “slap…” (And my final statement was not in love, and WAS rather inappropriate as I look back on it now, so I apologize to all…)
But, the point I was trying to make was that what’s good to defend one sexual orientation can suddenly be turned around and used for another sexual orientation - one where there’s no controversy over whether it’s right or wrong - (at least I would think we would all at the very least agree on this - that pedophilia IS wrong). However, to claim God made one homosexual is no different than to claim God made one a pedophile. I can say this because I’ve had someone sit in front of me and do that!!
I agree that God DOES give us a sexual orientation, we don’t choose it - it’s born into us. In Romans 1:26-27, it’s called the “natural function” or “natural use” (KJV). In the very same passage it says “the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.”
I guess what I’m having a hard time understanding after reading all these posts above is how this can be explained away as not stating homosexuality in practice is a sin, especially when it’s referred to as “indecent acts” and called an “error.” And I saw the post above from Jeremy that this was in the context of temple worship (which I can’t find in any of the books/commentaries I have). That still doesn’t excuse it otherwise in my mind because a whole host of other, “non-worship,” sins are mentioned in the concluding verses of the chapter.
If you can rationally explain this, in proper context, then I would like to read what you have to say - not to debate - just for my own information so I can learn and understand more.
Before I sign off, I would like to say, getting back to the original purpose of this blog, that I am happy to see that a church reached out to the gay community. While I do believe it’s a sin, I’m glad to see someone had the guts to stand up for the love of Christ and try to minister to those who are in need of Christ. And Todd, thanks for letting my previous post stand. I won’t be that over the top again….
bernie dehler on Fri, July 01, 2005
Andrea says:
“Is Homosexuality a Mental Illness or Emotional Problem? No. Psychologists, psychiatrists and other mental health professionals agree that homosexuality is not an illness, mental disorder or an emotional problem. Over 35 years of objective, well-designed scientific research has shown that homosexuality, in and itself,is not associated with mental disorders or emotional or social problems. Homosexuality was once thought to be a mental illness because mental health professionals and society had biased information.”
Yes, homosexuality, like all sins, are a mental issue. “Stinkin thinkin:”
Romans 12:1-2:
Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
Mental health professionals are still biased. Everyone is biased, in some way. Don’t be naive.
Because the question “Is homosexuality a sin?” is so hotly debated, is reason enough to show that there needs to be more focus on education as to the sinfulness of it.
...Bernie
patoonce on Fri, July 01, 2005
Wow, the only sin in this place is the sin of not accepting all other sins. This is ridiculous; a joke. What are we saved from? We are saved by God from God. We are saved from the wrath of the Judge of the entire universe. And what is that Great Judge going to do? Well, it is strictly stated in scripture that God is going to judge people according to their sins. Simple. Get the picture! Now according to many who post in here, the only sin man can ever commit is the sin of not accepting all other sins. The biggest problem with many of these posts is that in them there is a false presumption that the LOVE of God thwarts all other of the attributes of God, such as kindness, patients, justice, and of course, the one nobody wants to mention, the WRATH of God. So let’s get this straight; God is infinite, ergo boundless, therefore all his attributes are boundless. So one attribute of God (Love in this case) cannot be over emphasized over all the other attributes, since they are all infinitely boundless; if you overemphasize, lets say LOVE, over any other attribute, lets say WRATH, then you worship an idol. See, I’m not here to learn that homosexuality is good, just, and moral, and for me to say that I can learn that it is good is, well, foolish and a lie; for it’s strictly forbidden in Holy Writ. All I’m called in scripture to do is proclaim the truth and let God do the rest. So here it is: all you practicing homosexuals are going to hell if ya don’t repent. Simple. You may not like it, but it’s the Truth. And I hope the moderator doesn’t think I’ve committed the unpardonable sin by stating the TRUTH OF SCRIPTURE.
Weeding the Vineyard,
patoonce
Andrea Baxter on Fri, July 01, 2005
Thank you Jesus and the Holy Spirit for even allowing us to have this discussion on this love issue..and Thank you Bernie for the reply..
The information given discussing homosexuality was actually not said by myself, it was from a nationally certified panel of accredited pyschologists through out the country.
Bernie says:
Yes, homosexuality, like all sins, are a mental issue. “Stinkin thinkin..
You’re right homosexuality is an issue, as well as the abomination of not eating anything not of scales and fins in the sea and eating swine however, where were the group of Christian followers at the national hot dog eating contest this year? The bible clearly states that No sin is greater than any other sin. However, to have protests against this “love” issue subconsiously says, this issue for some Christians is seen as greater. Neither do I see them protesting the same people that condemn and judge as viciously as we “Christians” can sometimes….But God so loved us as “filthy”, unclean, judgemental, biting each others heads off, scoundrels that he gave his only begotten son that “WHOSOEVER” believeth in him shall have everlasting life.. Even though it is not fair to compare a homosexual to a thief, there is something that is absolutely wonderful about the one Jesus of whom we worship. We are merely saved by his grace and mercy, no matter what the sin. God inhabits the praise of his people. This is what makes him smile. Are we honoring him by badgering and trying to change his plan for a person’s life and purpose? As we have yet to know, God meets the needs of his people and in some cases his presence is so strong and his shift is so evident we can’t even see the signs. People are actually now worshipping him in “spirit and in truth”. He knows you’re a liar, a cheat, a person that bears false witness, a heterosexual that lusts, a homosexual that lusts, but inspite of all that, we still want to be near you, we still want to worship you simply for Who you Are…When Jesus accepted the thief into paradise, did he go on a rampage and say wait a minute, I love you, but I won’t grant you paradise until you change your “true spirit” which his flesh acted as that of a thief. Jesus did otherwise. As it is written in the bible, by us merely existing on Earth, we will not escape sin. Whether you’re one that lies, lusts, envy, greed filled, , judges, cheats, bears false witness, eats pork skins or whatever, no one can escape the only judge. I’m just so thankful for Jesus and his grace and mercy because he loves and teaches in the filthy old dirty flesh that we all have… I am so thankful that in spite of myself, he continues to give new mercies everyday… Again, my question remains to you Bernie, What will you say to the “thief” already in paradise?
bernie dehler on Fri, July 01, 2005
Andrea says:
“Again, my question remains to you Bernie, What will you say to the “thief” already in paradise?”
I would say “Hi.”
Andrea, only the sick need a doctor. Only sinners need a savior. If one doesn’t see homosexuality as a sin, then one won’t ever repent of it. And as Jesus told the woman who was caught in adultry, “go and sin no more.” He didn’t say “go and continue to sin, just believe in me.” Yes, we all sin. The difference is, do we try to overcome it by the power of the Holy Spirit and mature each day, or do we rationalize and wallow in it?
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins, and will purify us from all unrightousness.
...Bernie
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