Will the Church Embrace Gays and Lesbians in the Near Future?

Will the Church Embrace/Condone Gays and Lesbians in the Near Future?

Posted on January 11, 2010
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(66) comments

Take a look at this video and let me know what you think. This guy is talking about the changes in the Pentecostal church in Australia, but I think it's pertinent to the church in the US as well.

Comments

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CS on Mon, January 11, 2010

The gentleman on the video says that homosexuals are living, “normal lives.” No, it’s not, “normal,” to live in a lifestyle of ongoing sin. That presupposition taints his view of what he perceives the church will do in the future.

I believe that more churches will become affirming of homosexuality as time goes on, but there will be those that stand on the Bible and remain opposed to sin.

—
CS
Pastor Matt on Mon, January 11, 2010

We’re called to make people into disciples, not into hetrosexuals.

Perhaps some of you guys are being a bit black and white here. There are at least 10 levels and categories ranging from dead straight, to a bit of same-sex attraction right up to embracing the gay lifestyle. I think it is a real shame that the church worldwide has been distracted from its calling by this and frankly I’ve seen far too much homophobia for my liking. Its fine for people to sit there and say “it’s wrong!” but what the hell are you going to do about it? Who was the last gay you hugged and walked hand in hand through turning to God?

Pharisees were people that put the law upon others but didn’t lift a finger to help them.
Brandon Mouser on Mon, January 11, 2010

Again. It boils down to interpretation. If you interpret a behavior to be wrong or sinful, I encourage you to refrain from that particular behavior but let’s let the Holy Spirit do the convicting.
CS on Mon, January 11, 2010

Brandon:

“Again. It boils down to interpretation. If you interpret a behavior to be wrong or sinful, I encourage you to refrain from that particular behavior but let�s let the Holy Spirit do the convicting. “

Let’s apply your logic elsewhere, inserting actions into, “a behavior”:

If you interpret murder to be wrong or sinful, I encourage you to refrain from that particular behavior but let�s let the Holy Spirit do the convicting.

If you interpret rape to be wrong or sinful, I encourage you to refrain from that particular behavior but let�s let the Holy Spirit do the convicting.

If you interpret adultery to be wrong or sinful, I encourage you to refrain from that particular behavior but let�s let the Holy Spirit do the convicting.

Homosexuality is a sin and is wrong. Plain and simple.

—
CS
Brandon Mouser on Mon, January 11, 2010

CS. The topic is not the others you’ve brought up. Extremism is a typical response in this argument. You can’t convince me homosexuality is a sin so your agrgument is enlarged and drawn to things that we do accept as sin.

But since you have, I stand by my comment. No one may be convinced against their will, which is why it’s not our job to do the convicting/saving/etc.

Your interpretation of the six or so verses that some have translated to be dealing with homosexuality have convinced you; not me. So again, your convictions being were they are, refrain from the behavior.
Peter Hamm on Mon, January 11, 2010

Pastor Matt says [We�re called to make people into disciples, not into hetrosexuals.] I could not agree more! Too many Christians forget this.

and…

[Perhaps some of you guys are being a bit black and white here. There are at least 10 levels and categories ranging from dead straight, to a bit of same-sex attraction right up to embracing the gay lifestyle. ]

For me, I am being black and white and saying that if a person is oriented a certain way, just that state of orientation is not what the Bible says is sinful. the activity is what is sinful. I know and know of people who are gay and remain celibate. They are not in sin as far as that behavior is concerned. I know of people who are straight and unmarried and are not celibate. They ARE in sin.

I am given to anger, and if I’m angry and don’t kill somebody, I don’t sin in that particular fashion (although I’m probably sinning in some other way). If I’m not angry at all, but do indeed kill somebody… uh… I sinned.

I am talking about what the Bible says about the activity, not the orientation.

Brandon… you say it boils down to interpretation, but just as it is not an interpretation to say that God made the world, it is also not an interpretation to say that God’s law as put forth in the Old Testament condemns homosexual activity. Sorry, it just isn’t. To say that the Bible allows for even committed monogamous homosexual lifestyles is either eisogesis or very very unsound exegesis.

CS… what you said.

peter
Peter Hamm on Mon, January 11, 2010

Brandon, Lev. 18:22 is really hard to countermand without some kind of really unsound exegesis. It’s not interpretation.

You are, again, right that it is not our job to convict people of sin. I totally agree with you, and further, I concur with those who say that Christians who seem to spend all their energy on that enterprise are in error. I believe that some of those individuals are in serious grievous sin as a matter of fact.

But neither is it sound or right to say that the Bible doesn’t say something that it clearly does say. I’m not interpreting, just reading. You say [Your interpretation of the six or so verses that some have translated to be dealing with homosexuality have convinced you; not me.] Uh, “some have translated”? The only way to translate Lev. 18:22 to suggest that homosexual activity might be okay or right in God’s eyes is to mis-translate it.

I know I’m not going to convince you, but thought I’d offer it.
radicalron1963 on Mon, January 11, 2010

The larger issue is the church compromising the clear teachings of the Bible to enlarge the tent so that people will participate. Homosexuality is the same as any other sin. It seperates the person who is participating from God. According to Romans chapter 1 manking has refused to acknowledge God, so he has permitted mankind to “do things that should never be done.”

24 So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies.25 They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.
28 Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done.29 Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip.30 They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents.31 They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy.32 They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.

The bible discusses living a life of habitual sin

Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. (I John 3 :9)

We need to help people understand that God accepts them as they are, but expects them to become holy and seperated unto himself. Repentance is turning in the opposite direction from the sin that entangles us and keeps us from winning the race set before us.

Christ died to set us all free from sin. To tolerate behaviors or redefine sin is to cheapen the grace purchased by the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. Culture cannot dictate to the church it’s interpretation of God’s word
Rick on Mon, January 11, 2010

@Matt: I don’t think anyone is “distracted”. I think people simply respond when they sense lies are being perpetuated. If homosexual behavior is not a sin, than Christ did not die for the atonement of homosexual behavior. If anything is a distraction, it’s those that try to circumvent the cross by saying it was not needed for homosexual behavior. Why would we band-aid the issue and distract others from the healing and redemption we all need for behavior that is an afront to a Holy God. If anyone is failing to lift a finger, i’ts those that want to normalize the morality of homosexual behavior. In the name of “compassion” or whatever they actually condemn the homosexual to never knowing the cross’ power over their sin. It is simply unloving and uncompassionate…like letting someone drown while telling them they’ll be ok as they sink.

@Brandon: Keep beating the “interpretation” drum. As for “letting the Holy Spirit convict”. Who exactly is restrainng the Holy Spirit? Part of the mystery of God’s providence and man’s role is that he DOES convict…but we are also called to confront bad behavior in ways consistent with the Scriptures. These are not contradictory ideas. You present a false choice when you say to let the Spirit convict as opposed to man confronting behavior. This is the false choice of a spiritual coward. Plus…do you not find it ironic that you are currently confronting those who you think to believe in unconvincing interpretations of the Bible, lecturing us all the while without affording us the same “grace” of letting the Spirit convict us w/out your interference?
CS on Mon, January 11, 2010

Brandon:

“Your interpretation of the six or so verses that some have translated to be dealing with homosexuality have convinced you; not me. So again, your convictions being were they are, refrain from the behavior.”

Let’s ignore the clear teaching of Leviticus 18, Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6, and those other verses for a minute and go check out something else. What does marriage symbolize?

According to Ephesians 5, marriage is a picture of Christ and the Church. Husbands are to love and give themselves to their wives as Christ leads the Church, and wives are expected to submit to their husbands as the Church submits to the Lord. There are gender-specific roles that each person in the marriage covenant plays.

What about homosexuality? Let’s assume for a moment that you are in agreement that fornication, adultery, and lust are sinful (and that my example of throwing in other sins into this debate wasn’t just hyperbole). That would mean that the only avenue there would be marriage. What does homosexual marriage do to Ephesians 5?

First, it erases the gender-specific roles. With two men in a relationship, who is the type and shadow of Christ? Or, with two women, who is supposed to submit to who? There is no order. Second, what does it say about Christ’s relationship with the Church? Again, with two people of the same sex supposed to be acting out the marriage covenant, this says that mankind is equal to God, since there is no federal head of that union. To raise man to Godhood is a sinful action. And, third, what does it say to the world? It says that God doesn’t mean what He says in the redemption of mankind, since we could have saved ourselves if two men engaged in homosexual union are equally bound.

So, without using the typical verses for condemning homosexuality, I have used another illustration of why homosexuality is sinful and not in God’s plan. And I will continue speaking the truth in love in warning people who are engaged in homosexual behavior about what they are doing, in the hopes that the Holy Spirit will convict them through the preaching of God’s Word. Will you recant?

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CS
Dennis Thurman on Mon, January 11, 2010

The Holy Spirit is not some mysterious cloud floating around dispensing conviction of sin like fall-out from an H-bomb. He indwells believers. Jesus promised that after He came (to indwell the saints) He would convince the world of sin, and righteousness and judgment. These were the very things Paul reasoned with Felix concerning the rulers sinful lifestyle. If people are to be convicted of sin and led to conversion it will be through the means of Spirit-filled people communicating the truth. One is not permitted to “interpret” the Word of God into nonsense—which is what Brandon is doing. Time to take a stand—not just against one type of sin, but all of it—and present a gracious and merciful Savior for such sinners of whom I am chief. Matt, I have held the hand of an AIDS afflicted homosexual and prayed with him, have hugged those feeling same-sex attraction and tried to disciple those wanting victory. But, love demands that we try our best to keep people out of hell. That requires speaking the truth in love.
Brandon Mosuer on Mon, January 11, 2010

@radicalron1963: I don’t think that’s the issue here. The conversation we’re in would not be happening if it were as clear as some insist; and maybe it is clear to them. The subject for me is not, however, as clear.

@Rick: You said: “If homosexual behavior is not a sin, than Christ did not die for the atonement of homosexual behavior.”

We say heterosexual behavior is not a sin, so that would mean Christ didn’t have to die for it’s atonement either, right? I don’t get where you’re going with that.
Brandon Mosuer on Mon, January 11, 2010

@CS: I cannot recant. Cultural context is key in interpreting Scripture. Why do we ignore it in some instances and apply it in others.

When Paul wrote Ephesians, he was addressing specific issues occurring at the Church at Ephesus. In this instance, homosexuality isn’t addressed. It’s an assumption that because Paul was speaking to husbands and wives, he was promoting gender-specific roles.

And as far as gender-specific roles go, aren’t those roles of men and women radically different from the times of Paul?

You may call that a reach or an assumption on my part, which is acceptable.
Brandon Mosuer on Mon, January 11, 2010

@Dennis Thurman: I disagree. It’s not about us. Saving people is not the role of a Christian and neither is ‘trying to keep people out of hell’, IMO.

We are called to make disciples. We can’t disciple people who aren’t attempting to follow.
JOB on Mon, January 11, 2010

I say stand strong Pentecostal Church!! Welcome all, but don’t allow a twisted watered down Scripture to become an olive branch for any single or group of people.