Will the Church Embrace Gays and Lesbians in the Near Future?

Will the Church Embrace/Condone Gays and Lesbians in the Near Future?

Posted on January 11, 2010
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(66) comments

Take a look at this video and let me know what you think. This guy is talking about the changes in the Pentecostal church in Australia, but I think it's pertinent to the church in the US as well.

Comments

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Brandon Mosuer on Mon, January 11, 2010

@Rick: Missed the rest of your post, there. Sorry. :-(

I do beat the ‘interpretation’ drum; very loudly. Interpretation is crucial and EVERYONE does it in some fashion.

Unfortunately, many believers are simply parrots regurgitating the biblical interpretation they’ve heard in the past without ever owning what they believe.

How is one to know what is consistent with scripture? Just reading someone else’s translation? Someone else’s interpretation or commentary?

I do take offense of you calling me a spiritual coward. These are not positions on which I’ve stumbled.

I believe the Holy Spirit will convict someone when they do wrong. If that person is in community and relationship with others, they have the ability to carry this person through their trials. But to stand and point the finger at what one perceives as an impropriety is both arrogant and unbiblical.

I also don’t see the irony in fleshing out how to live a life as close to the teachings of Jesus as possible. Perhaps you prefer being told what to believe and do. I wouldn’t blame you. It’s easier that way. Much less effort.
Mark on Mon, January 11, 2010

Brandon: Who are these Bible scholars you are taking about? What are their credentials? Where do they come up these opinion? What verses in the Bible do they cite? In what evangelical seminaries do they teach? Do they hold to the inspiration and infallibility of the Bible?

I don’t know of any reputable “scholar” who believes and/or teaches that continuing to practice homosexuality is not sin. I guess you need to cite your sources. Can you?
Brandon Mouser on Mon, January 11, 2010

I can find them if you like, but I’m not convinced they will do much to convince you. Sounds like you have your opinion fairly well established.

As Anne Lamott said, ‘Everyone believes their opinion is right. If they didn’t, they’d get a new one.’

For the record, I believe in the infallibility of God, but not an incomplete collection of letters and oral accounts of history, though surely they were inspired.
Peter Hamm on Mon, January 11, 2010

Brandon,

here’s the key for me, and this will get me in trouble with some of these folks, but probably not you.

This is not as big an issue as a lot of people think, and it’s just as plausible that somebody who is a Christ-follower who thinks that their monogamous homosexual activity is OK is just as likely (I might argue more likely) to be “saved” than someone who thinks their greed is OK.

Although I can’t buy the interpretation that all the instances in the Bible that speak against homosexual behavior are somehow either in error or in need of interpretation such as you suggest, I don’t think that this issue condemns you. I just don’t.

Wanted to make sure you knew that.
Mark on Mon, January 11, 2010

Ok, Brandon. You said you produce these “scholars.” So whether I have an opinion for or against is irrevelant. The burden of proof is on you.

I am certain the folks in this thread are wondering who these “scholars” are and what credentials they have. You have made quite a thing in this thread about “interpretation” so you need to prove that the interpretors are really there and they have the credentials to “rightly divide the Word of

So, yes, please, provide them so the rest of us can judge for ourselves. You said you have them, right? Prove it.
Brandon Mouser on Mon, January 11, 2010

Thanks Mark. I’ll dig them up for you since, you know, lay-people aren’t able to rightly divide the Word of ______. I wasn’t aware one must possess appropriate credentials to study on their own. But I don’t mind lifting the spoon for you and the people you speak for.
Brandon Mouser on Mon, January 11, 2010

@Peter. I appreciate that. And while I do believe everything is interpreted, there is, I feel, a lot of great work out there.

As for this issue, can you imagine what might happen if homosexuality was determined not to be a sin? All that would have to change? Books, commentary, bibles, protest signs, etc?

I, personally, don’t believe this will ever change in Evangelical communities; though I pray fervently that I’m wrong. There is far too much money and power at stake.

Perhaps I’m jaded. Perhaps not.
Peter Hamm on Mon, January 11, 2010

Mark, since Brandon doesn’t subscribe to the infallibility of Scripture, and therefore I surmise that he neither accepts the inerrancy of scripture (which is a “right straw-ey” doctrine anyway), you will no doubt decide that whatever scholar he puts forth is not reputable.

Brandon, this debate would be kinda pointless, don’t you think. I wouldn’t bother with that response.

We are not likely to change minds in this forum.

And Brandon, you are decidedly not a spiritual coward. Else, you would not have engaged here the way you have. Thanks!
Brandon Mouser on Mon, January 11, 2010

@Mark: Here you go! MIght keep you busy for a while.

D. S. Bailey
Most Rev. Katharine Jefferts Schori
Gerard Loughlin
Gareth Moore
Luke Timothy Johnson
Marilyn McCord Adams
Walter Wink
Mark on Mon, January 11, 2010

Brandon.

We are not talking about whether a lay person can read or interpret the Bible. We are not talking about illumination and conviction by the Holy Spirit.

Several threads back, as supporting evidence to your arguments, you said there are scholars who also have the opinion that homosexuality is not sin.

And I simply asked to tell all of us “non-scholarly ones” who these scholars might be so we can judge for ourselves. So the burden of proof for such a claim is yours.

Do I pick up that you are trying to divert atttention from your claim?

If it so, show us all!
Peter Hamm on Mon, January 11, 2010

Brandon writes [I, personally, don�t believe this will ever change in Evangelical communities; though I pray fervently that I�m wrong. There is far too much money and power at stake.]

Please consider though, that evangelicals might decide not to change their minds on this for reasons quite separate from money and power. I for one am convinced that on one hand many evangelicals have blown this issue way out of proportion, to the point that it is more important to them that I mentally assent to the “correct” viewpoint on this one issue than if I actually do the things in my community and world that Jesus commands…. and on the other hand many people have practiced revisionist theology and history to try and reconcile the way that they wish to live and behave to Scripture in any way possible. I reject both.

Simply stated, the position that interprets the Bible as NOT condemning homosexual behavior seems a heck of a greater logical, theological, and philosophical leap than interpreting the Bible as condemning it.
Rick on Mon, January 11, 2010

@Brandon said: “Unfortunately, many believers are simply parrots regurgitating the biblical interpretation they�ve heard in the past without ever owning what they believe.”

This is funny. What a sweeping generalization of a mass of people that you neither know nor will you ever meet. I’ve never been accused of regurgitating anyone’s stuff. I’m quite able to think and reason on my own, thank you. Are you going to accuse Stetzer of the same thing?!? Rich. What a low opinion you must have of those that do not subscribe to your “interpretations”.

@Brandon said: “I do take offense of you calling me a spiritual coward. These are not positions on which I�ve stumbled.”

It was meant as a rebuke toward your desire to leave all things up to the Spirit minus biblical confrontation. You missed the point on your way to being offended.

@Brandon said: “But I don�t mind lifting the spoon for you and the people you speak for.”

Snide. Nice.
Peter Hamm on Mon, January 11, 2010

I’m going home now, but y’all need to leave it alone now. Rick, Brandon’s characterization of Christian Theological “Parrots” is spot on. We all have known them.

And Rick, Brandon was only snide after you called him a spiritual coward, which is against the rules of Todd’s blog as I recall, and not very charitable either.

You all are NOT going to change each others mind here. Do you know that?
carl Lodico on Mon, January 11, 2010

Jesus embraced everyone from whatever background they came from. He was clear, though, on sin.

1. That sin could be forgiven through faith in his redeeming work on the cross.

2. That sin does not have authority in our lives when we continue to grow in the truth sets us free and surrender to Him.

3. That sin does not identify who we are.

It always comes down to the same question - is homosexuality sin? If one believes that it is not a sin then, of course, let homosexuals be priests, pastors, or whatever.

If one believes it is a sin, just like any other sin, then embrace the homosexual with the love of Christ and a holy love and friendship that can free them from that sin, just like any other sin. That is my belief and I praise God for the freedom he brings to every sinner standing in the shadow of the cross.
Peter Hamm on Mon, January 11, 2010

“If one believes it is a sin, just like any other sin, then embrace the homosexual with the love of Christ and a holy love and friendship that can free them from that sin, just like any other sin. That is my belief and I praise God for the freedom he brings to every sinner standing in the shadow of the cross.” I LIKE THIS! But too many of us would rather be “right” than loving.