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100 Things I’ve Learned About Church

Orginally published on Thursday, July 07, 2005 at 11:00 AM
by Todd Rhoades

I found this interesting post at a blog called "Begin with Grey".  It is written by someone who admits "Here I write all the stuff that would be too risky to associate with my real name."  Read this from a former church person, a person who self-admittedly doesn’t "have much of a faith anymore", and see what you think.  Does anything stand out to you?

Here's what they say:

I don't have much of a faith anymore. At least not like I used to. I thought I was so great with all my theology and my good works. I worshiped my church and thought it could be great one day if only we got things right. If only we worked it all out, said the right things, acted the right way and looked just right, we would convince anyone to become just like us. We were Christians. We sang great songs, had great truths, married great people and did great things. We thought alike, talked alike and acted just as we should. We thought we were so great because we only had ourselves to impress.

I know that some of what follows will greatly offend some people, it would have offended me a little while ago. Some items result from great leaps of logic. That's ok. I'm not intending to write a thesis here. It's more of a snapshot of what I think about church now. Some of these I'll defend, but I'm sure many will vanish from my thought at some point. Basically, if it helps you, great... if not, oh well, at least you can see church from another perspective.

There's more to come. I'm treating this more or less like a table of contents for what I'll be writing about on this blog.

Corporate driven church

  • Your church is not a company.
  • Running a church like a corporation leads to all sorts of problems that church leaders are ill-equipped to handle.
  • The corporate driven church often leads to an entitlement mentality amongst the 'customers' who are paying for services. That leads to enormous abuse as churches scramble to get their employees and volunteers to meet the needs of their ever picky 'customers'.
  • Everything the Church ignores grows.

Diversity

  • Many churches, often in an effort to meet the demands of their top donors stifle diversity.
  • Diversity (of culture, style, thought, leadership, viewpoints) can only be good for a church.
  • Lack of diversity kills communities.
  • The more churches stifle diversity, the more they will find their members splitting on the most obscure issues.
  • If you aren't regularly saying "I've never thought of it that way", then you probably don't have enough diversity in your life.

The poor

  • Many churches who have the megachurch philosophy say "We don't invite the poor because we don't know how to handle the poor".
  • The truth is, the poor know how to handle the poor. If churches began respecting the poor, they would be amazed by what they have to offer.

Women in leadership

  • Contrary to what most christians are taught, the Bible has surprisingly little to say against women in leadership.
  • The typical views against women in leadership don't stand up well against the "where is it written" argument.
  • Churches often will model their leadership based on Jesus and the disciples, saying that all the disciples are men, therefore the church leadership should be similarly composed. If that's so, does that go for race as well? Or occupation?

Gays and Judgment

  • Most christians have no idea how much gays have suffered in the hands of so-called 'christians'.
  • Many christians believe that all sin is equal, yet they judge gays for their sins much more harshly.
  • Every time I've thought someone should be excluded from the church for some reason, I find out that I should be excluded for reasons which are just as equal.
  • Most christians are unaware of the amount of promiscuity that goes on within their church.
  • Most churches would rather appear without blemish than to provide a safe forum for their members to work through issues of sexuality. Whatever the church ignores, grows.

Absolute Truth

  • There is absolute truth, there just isn't absolute interpretation.
  • Many christians try to find absolute truth in anything and everything. This mentality leads to bickering, divisiveness and alienation.
  • It's never good to claim that you have the total truth.
  • There are plenty of things we just won't know the absolute truth on.
  • It's ok to not know the absolute truth.
  • The phrase "where do you draw the line?" is ripe with fallacy. Alarms should go off every time it's spoken.
  • Our job is rarely, if ever, to draw lines.
  • Many chrisitan leaders are uncomfortable with the idea of postmodernism. This is usually because they've spent their lives building a highly rational defense of their faith and postmodernism undermines that. Lesson: don't spend your life building a highly rational defense of your faith. Instead, live it out
  • There's something worth learning from every religion and every philosophy. Ask what's right before asking what's wrong.

Argumentation

  • Church communities often place enormous value in argumentation; alienating people who aren't easily understood.
  • Those people who lack a "clear voice" may still have profound truths to share. Ask.
  • It's good to ask this question: "Can you possibly imagine an exception to your argument?"
  • Every argument can be turned back into a conversation by believing "It's okay if I'm completely wrong about this."
  • Everything I say is wrong.
  • Everything you say is wrong.
  • We should have pity on each other for our shared inability to communicate truth.
  • Pity does not mean contempt.
  • There are exceptions to everything here.
  • All of us are always in progress always, all the time.

Style and Substance

  • Making a church look cool does not make it 'postmodern'.
  • When it comes to church; style does not equal substance.
  • There are plenty of 'uncool' churches that are far more "postmodern"/"emergent" than the "cool" churches.
  • "New Look, Same Great Taste!" doesn't work if it tastes nasty.
  • Churches spend countless resources in pursuit of the perfect formula for getting people saved. There is no formula. There never has been, there never will be.
  • You can't buy the formula, you can't sell the formula, you can't go to a 'cool' church and copy the formula. No amount of research will reveal the formula. So just step away from the Drucker.
  • Churches could move a thousand mountains with the effort they exert trying to perfect their formula.
  • Read the bible, everyone. Relentlessly discuss what it says with as many different kinds of people as possible. (is that a formula?)
  • Christian language has become so corrupt, so many of the words have taken on such terrible meanings, that the Bible is nearly unreadable for some people. There's something worth working on.
  • For example, when the bible uses the word 'grace' but we have never even seen anything close to grace being demonstrated in our churches, then how are we to understand what the bible is saying?

Definitions

  • The word "christian" means all kinds of things to all kinds of people. Very often it means bad things.
  • Same with 'Jesus', God, Savior, etc.
  • Republican does not equal Christian.
  • Many people will have nothing to do with church simply because they think that they have to change their political viewpoints to be a part of it.
  • In most Christian debates there's a big disconnect between what we are passionate about and what Jesus was passionate about.
  • It's good to always ask the question "What does the Bible say more about?". Does it say more about the small inconsequential issue we are fighting about, or does it say more about love and unity?

"Evangelism"

  • Find out what's right about someone else's beliefs before attacking what's wrong.
  • The focus of christianity shouldn't be to 'convert' people when it's at the expense of loving them.
  • Many christians have been relentlessly taught to 'convert' 'non-christians'. They do so with the best intentions but usually end up alienating their 'unsaved' friends and marginalizing the church.
  • Everyone has heard the salvation message, several times, with fewer exceptions than most christians have been lead to believe.
  • The four spiritual laws are never presented in scripture explicitly. They are simply one way of condensing the gospel message in a way meant to make sense to the modern man.
  • The four spiritual laws don't make sense to most people.
  • Trying to boil all the mystery of the bible down into faux-scientific fact does little to convince people who have little faith in science. Or in you.
  • The sinner's prayer isn't in the Bible. No one in the Bible ever got anyone saved by using the "sinner's prayer".
  • Truth is, no one ever, in any time has ever been saved by the sinner's prayer. Think about it.
  • Repeating "That's just your truth, I'm glad you found something that works for you," will confound many evangelicals. (and it tends to anger a few).

The next big thing

  • The more a church says "if we build it, they will come", the more they will find themselves in debt with their burned out volunteers walking out the door.
  • Two steps towards irrelevance: one, hold an evangelistic event that will impress your christian friends. two, blame the 'unbelievers' if they don't get saved.
  • What works for another church will not work for yours. Especially anything with the number forty in it.
  • Most of the "Next Big Things" in christianity end up disillusioning their proponents, even in small imperceptible ways. Did alpha, 40 days and the passion really live up to all their promises? Do you have the same regard for them now as you did when you first found out about them?
  • The "Next Big Things" are often the Get Rich Quick schemes of the church; promising pastors large congregations for a low low price.
  • Be wary of Get Large Quick schemes, just like you are wary of Get Rich Quick schemes that attempt to circumvent common sense and Godly wisdom.
  • This goes for the 'emerging church' too. Don't think that making your church 'appeal' to 'postmoderns' will make your church big.

Intuition

  • Just because someone says "I feel God is leading me to do such and such" doesn't mean that it's right.
  • 3 steps to disaster: one, fill your intuition with lousy data; two, mistake your intuition for God's leading; three, silence your critics with God talk by saying things like "I know God is leading me" or "I'm just stepping out in Faith".
  • Many christians mistake psychological phenomena as spiritual phenomena.
  • It's dangerous to mistake the temporal for the eternal.

Long View

  • It's even more dangerous to treat the eternal as though it's temporal.
  • Take the long view.
  • Expand your timeline for change (of you, others; your church, community and world). It may take another 200 years.
  • Be encouraged by the kinds of changes that can be completed in the long view.
  • What kind of changes would you make at your church if you knew it was going to exist for 400 years?

Listen

  • Listen intently to why someone hates church. Really listen, actively listen, ask questions, don't react.
  • By all means don't say "well, our church is different" or "that doesn't apply to us".
  • When someone hates church, it is surprisingly rare in this culture, that they hate church simply because of Christ.
  • Be prepared to make significant changes to your point of view the more you honestly talk to those whom the church has abandoned.
  • If we believe that the church goes beyond four walls and includes all 'believers', then we need to be consistent in that view.
  • Most people who avoid the church have been hurt by the church. Not 'a church' but 'the church'.
  • It's worthwhile to see all christian atrocities as our own.

Question

  • It's okay to question.
  • Question everything, everyone, everywhere, always.
  • Nothing is off limits. Question God, life, salvation, death, sin, hell, bible, leaders and traditions.
  • Never accept "that's just the way it is" for an answer. Never accept "the Bible just generally says that".
  • Always ask "where is it written?".
  • Don't accept for a moment that just because someone has "the right credentials", that they have the right answer. Honor them, but question.
  • Questioning does not make you less of a Christian. Questioning isn't a sin. It isn't even doubt.
  • Don't stop anyone from questioning.
  • Don't give canned answers.
  • With few exceptions, there is always more than one answer.
  • Good answers take time and they account for truth on all levels.
  • A culture of questions is organic, fragile and easily broken. Don't break it.
  • Allow people to find their own answers. Don't impose your will on them.
  • Usually, asking a question is more important than receiving an answer.
  • If you believe God is sovereign, then you can rest assured that they will come to the right answer at the right time.

What do you think?  What stands out to you from this list of 100 things?


This post has been viewed 339 times so far.



 TRACKBACKS: (0) There are 20 Comments:

  • Posted by
    Thursday, July 07, 2005 at 2:18 PM

    The one that jumps right off the page at me is the assertion that seeking to convert non-christians and loving non-christians are somehow antithetical.

    If we truly love our non-christian friend… their conversion is always first on our list. I think that the author has mistaken the method of conversion (arguments, 4 spiritual laws, pressing for a decision, manipulation, guilt, fear, etc.) with the ultimate goal of conversion.

    Seeking to influence lost people (yes, they are lost without Christ) to find Christ is to love them indeed. To seek to love them without helping to meet their primary (and ultimately only) need, which is Christ, could not be characterized as love.

    just some humble thoughts… I could be wrong.

    lance

  • Posted by
    Thursday, July 07, 2005 at 3:41 PM

    This is a fantastic article and most of these ideas I practice myself. However, the following point is a bit challenging for man to accomplish and respond to critics:

    3 steps to disaster: one, fill your intuition with lousy data; two, mistake your intuition for God’s leading; three, silence your critics with God talk by saying things like “I know God is leading me” or “I’m just stepping out in Faith”.

    As far as the 3 steps to disaster goes how does someone answer their critics when trying to explain the leading of God. If you’re like me God has spoken to you in many different ways. For example, He has shown me things, He has used others to confirm His plans, and then there is circumstances that He uses to show me His will. To summarize that in a concise detailed answer that others grasp is beyond my expertise. In fact, I’ve found that when trying to explain God’s will in my decisions only confuses the person/s I’m sharing it with because God did’t share that with them. So I don’t really know if you could say that generic teminology such as “I know God is leading me” is a step to disaster. Obviously, if a person isn’t hearing the voice of God then one has bigger problems than just saying the wrong things to their critics.
    Another example, in the story of the Deciples and the crossing of the Red sea, when the storm came and it appeared as though they were going to drown they woke up Jesus and asked Him to save them from the storm. But instead of congradulating them on their asking for His help He said,

    “Ye of Little Faith”. I pose this question then, was Jesus not saying that His desiples should step out in faith? To give a response to someone by saying I’m stepping out in faith based on this circumstance and Jesus’ response would only argue that He wanted His Desciples to believe that they would reach their destination even if there was a storm along the way. So to say I am acting in faith isn’t a step to disaster but one that says to the critic, I’m believing God to take care of this decision. I’m not saying we should make decisions then God asked to bless our choices but in this story were they not given a direction by Jesus before there was a storm? Even if Jusus didn’t tell them where they were going, they knew they were supposed to follow. So if God is directing our lives up to this point in life then shouldn’t our decisions regardless of the circumstances surrounding our choice ultimately be based on faith? With that said, to accomplish this task of acting in faith is difficult even for those who walked with Jesus failed this test. But I am encouraged because Jesus went ahead and calmed the storm anyway. Afterall, He could have just let the storm continue and they would have still reached their destination because Jesus’ work wasn’t finished. Instead, He did what they requested and calmed it for them. That let’s me know that if my actions are slightly off track because of my human side then I know He still cares and can and will fix the problem if need be. I believe those deciples learned something that day that they might have missed had they not made a mistake in their choice. Just a thought. God Bless.

  • Posted by
    Thursday, July 07, 2005 at 10:42 PM

    It sounds to me like this person is seriously confused.  Angy yet searching.  Knows The Truth but wars against it (for what ever reason or “excuse") and most of his/her presuppositions are definably wrong.

    Given that, there is some I agree with and some I disagree with.  The thing that sticks out in my mind about this person comes down to really one question:

    On what authority do you base truth?

    His confusion on grace is another big one that sticks out:
    [For example, when the bible uses the word ‘grace’ but we have never even seen anything close to grace being demonstrated in our churches, then how are we to understand what the bible is saying?]

    I would have to ask what grace do you expect?  When the Bible speaks of grace, it speaks of two seperate and distinct types of grace.  Which are you expecting to see in the church?  Or better yet, maybe start with the question, do you know the two types of grace spoke of in the Bible?

  • Posted by bernie dehler
    Friday, July 08, 2005 at 11:08 AM

    Overall, looks very helpful and insightful.

    ...Bernie

  • Posted by
    Friday, July 08, 2005 at 6:08 PM

    I like the question, “What kind of changes would you make at your church if you knew it was going to exist for 400 years?” I’d ask a similar question with a shorter time frame - say, 4 weeks. 

    I imagine that in both cases, church boards would be doing a lot less discussion of carpeting and wall colors!

  • Posted by grey
    Friday, July 08, 2005 at 8:44 PM

    I’m surprised to see my post getting this attention. I really thought only a few friends might see it.

    I think my post is hopelessly incomplete. It didn’t provide any evidence or explanation for any of the assertions. I see it as a snapshot of what I’m thinking about church at this point in time, but I’m fine if in the end, what I wrote is proved incorrect or biased.

    A couple points of clarification:
    I wrote that I “don’t have much of a faith anymore”. I don’t mean to say I don’t have any faith. Just that I am now what I would have judged before. As far as the secrecy, it’s simply because I’m looking for a job and I don’t want to scare off potential employers.

    As for evangelism: I think it was a sad day when loving people the way Christ did was replaced with an ‘ism’. I don’t see any problem with evangelism, but I do think that much of the way it’s practiced ends up hurting people. I think we’d be better off to drop our evangelism books, courses and methods in favor of teaching people to love others like Jesus did. That should be enough, and when it isn’t there’s something wrong.

    As for the ‘3 steps to disaster’: I have some difficulty understanding the difference between the holy spirit and intuition. Here’s an example; A friend of mine desperately wants the status of wealth. He programs his intuition only by listening to name-it/claim-it preachers. He mistakes his intuition for the holy spirit and maxes out several credit cards in a get-rich-quick scheme. He silences anyone who would help by saying “I know God is leading me, I’m just stepping out in faith”.

    BeHim wrote “It sounds to me like this person is seriously confused. Angy yet searching. Knows The Truth but wars against it (for what ever reason or “excuse") and most of his/her presuppositions are definably wrong.”
    Yep, you pretty much nailed it. I am confused. And I am angry, but in the sort of way that comes out of grief. I look forward to learning how my presuppositions are wrong.

    Thanks to everyone, I’m looking forward to what I can learn in these conversations.

  • Posted by
    Saturday, July 09, 2005 at 3:00 AM

    Grey said There is absolute truth, there just isn’t absolute interpretation.
    I would agree with this statement. Thank you for expressing your views. I find them very enlightening and interesting. I have added your site to my favorites!

  • Posted by
    Saturday, July 09, 2005 at 1:26 PM

    This is the most refreshing thing I have read about Church in a long time. Grey, thank you for being so honest, and not being afraid of being open, even when I am sure there are those who are out there to bash you, or to put up a fight, I love the humility in your response. My faith is something that continues to grow, and it looks like you are learning that. In fact, I bet every one here, Pastors included could tell you of how much they have changed over the years!
    Being honest is the best way to discover your faith, if you start there, and in a humble place, I believe that you will be able to truly grow!

  • Posted by
    Saturday, July 09, 2005 at 4:11 PM

    Grey states:  “I look forward to learning how my presuppositions are wrong.”

    BeHim responds:

    Corporate driven church (we align pretty close on these concepts)
    The church is not only corporate minded but emphatically married to the world.  It’s ministries that ARE ignored like Ellen’s single parents ministry, the move towards reformed and house churches and a few others that the church is ignoring that are growing (and needed).

    Diversity (depends on the world view)
    The Christian World View teaches “diversity” but more in sanctity.  Diversity in the name of “unity” (in beliefs and views will only bring a different gospel - this is to marry the world).  When diversity moves away from “what does Scripture say” (as opposed to “I’ve never thought of it that way") is where major problems are going to creep in.

    The poor (physical and spiritual needs)
    The poor need to be taken care of in the name of Christ NOT in the name of humanity.  Most of what is being taught today is a humanistic approach to taking care of the poor, many times putting a christian theme or name on it.  Which is more important, the physical or spiritual need?

    Women in leadership (question of responsibility and authority)
    This is a question of authority and responsibility.  Man was first given the authority and the responsibility this is important considering obedience and respect.

    Gays and Judgment (accept sin or deny it)
    Your final statement is the method we must use to reveal sin in the individual and possibly the church.  Sin must be acknowledged and confessed so that repentance and forgiveness can take place.  The issue isn’t “acceptance/tolerance/unity” the issue is sin.  We all have sin that needs to be acknowledged and confessed, this isn’t the issue, the issue is no repentance, usually because the person either doesn’t think what they are doing is wrong or because they “feel” they shouldn’t have to repent because someone else is reproofing (correcting conduct) them ("judge not...").  So an open format to bring these things out (to have them revealed) is necessary so that repentance and forgiveness can be produced.

    Also, keep an eye out for those who would back bite/tale bare and talk in vain among you.  This leads more times than not to the Christian that was truly converted, they recognized the sin in their life, confessed it and leave the lifestyle but struggle at times, yet they are still talked about behind their backs.  It is THIS issue that must be dealt with in The Body of Christ.

    Absolute Truth (we can’t know anything for sure?)
    “There is absolute truth, there just isn’t absolute interpretation.” This is just another feeble attempt at saying there is no truth.  Think about it, what you’re saying is:  There IS absolute truth, we just can’t know it.

    This is where your ultimate assumption is absolutely wrong!  The Word of God is absolute truth.  It is true, there are plenty of things we don’t know the absolute truth on.  It is also absolutely true that there are plenty of things we know are absolutely true (in The Faith).  Outside The Faith, everything is questionable and not absolutely true (this is after all the way of the world and the flesh and Lucifer - “did God really say").

    Argumentation (can we have two gospels???)
    Again, it is because of your incorrect assumption of absolute truth that you can come to the conclusions about argumentations the way you have.  Do you assume God can change? (ie. “progress")

    Style and Substance (postmodernism the new christian benchmark)
    I disagree again and it has to deal with your ultimate assumptions of authority, responsibility, truth and unity.  Postmodern is NOT the benchmark for Christianity.

    Definitions (terms ARE important)
    For example:  Define grace, mercy, love.  Yet, in humanism, these can all mean completely different things or the same thing but attributing them to someone or something else.

    “Evangelism” (the hopeless need hope, the despairing need comfort)
    Reaching the lost is more a lifestyle of a person who is truly changed.  When I was first saved, I told everyone about the wonders of God and His Word not because I was trained (the training only helped systematize) but because I was changed and excited about it.  When a “new born” Christian is “on fire” they are truly “on fire”.  We need to return to our “first love”.

    The next big thing (Christ or .... any wave or wind)
    Who should we “blame” if an unbeliever is not saved?  Ourselves?  God?  Is it our work to save?  All we do is plant, it’s God that provides The Harvest.  We don’t know if that seed will grow or not but we should know that we have to plant.

    I have a more optimistic view of the next big thing (although I don’t believe it will be “big” as God has clearly shown in Scripture He works well with the smaller groups - like Gideon) - reformed belief and home churches (and a few others).

    Intuition (test the spirits)
    This is to say “test the spirits” but what do you test the spirit with?  The latest best seller book?  What the pastor says?  We must know the Bible, the Word of God because it is only this way you’ll know and even then it’s a test because the devil knows the word too:  “It is written”. [I like this:  “It is dangerous to mistake the temporal for the eternal” I couldn’t agree more - like physical needs as opposed to spiritual needs.]

    Long View (still temporal)
    I like what someone else said:  “what if your church made decisions that they would only be around another 4 weeks.” what about 4 days or 4 hours.  All of these change things dramatically don’t they?  So what is the right one?  I believe we should treat each minute as though it were our last.

    Listen (listen for their need, they’ll tell you)
    I agree and disagree with your statements here but I’ll say that in each conversation there is one goal.  Christ be preached.  If believers, edification in Scripture.

    Question (with a purpose)
    I agree with questioning.  I’ve been lied to by church leaders and many others.  Hurt by church leaders and others.  But I don’t turn away from Christ because of them.  They are human and make mistakes, as do I.  I only seek to know The Truth so I may see The Way more clearly and attain The Life more fruitfully.  I want to know what Scripture says, not what man thinks.  I want to know what God wants me to do, regardless of the flesh, the world or Lucifer’s ever present influence in this life.  I want my life to conform to Christ living through me.  This begins with knowledge (The beginning of knowledge is the fear of the Lord), and moves to understanding (questioning, testing and doing) unto wisdom (that I might help others and walk it with them as I have the opportunity).

  • Posted by
    Saturday, July 09, 2005 at 5:31 PM

    I love the journey of faith, and the honesty and openness of grey. Just wondering - BeHim why so defensive (or at least it seems a bit defensive, and I could be wrong about that) ? I don’t see a loss of faith here, but a start of one, I think when we do not allow the exploration of faith and we simply try to answer right away… we stop listening. If I believe in God, I believe that God can work through any question, God is not small. It looks like grey isn’t defending anything they are saying, but just sharing where they are at right now, why is that so bad? I feel that this is partly the trouble that we are having in the Church, when someone questions, or asks questions they are jumped on, and somehow they offend in their questioning, but as believers in God, why are we so scared of questions, don’t we know that truth will ultimately prevail?
    just a thought -
    but, in the same thought BeHim, it looks like you are also discovering and finding new depths to your faith, and I am sure we can all come to that joy, of welcoming someone else into the ‘body’ no matter where they are on that walk.
    May you all contiually know the joy of the lord.

  • Posted by
    Saturday, July 09, 2005 at 5:50 PM

    Amen Marie! Grey welcome to the family of God! There are plenty who will love and guide you, seems like you are willing to learn and grow, like we all need to be!
    May you learn about His ways!
    I would encourage you to seek out a Church and share this with a Pastor, so that he might know where you are in your walk of faith. And be able to help or direct where needed.
    Again, welcome, and may your faith be rich, and may you know the greatness of God!

  • Posted by grey
    Saturday, July 09, 2005 at 5:52 PM

    BeHim,

    Thanks for taking the time to write all of that. You clearly have a lot of reasons for believing the way that you do.

    I’m not sure I understand very much of what you had to write. You are in a different stage of your walk, and it’ll take awhile for me to catch up. But I’m still processing what you wrote. I think if we were to work through this we’d probably find out we agree on much more than we disagree.

    It may seem like I’ve turned away from Christ based on what I’ve written, but it’s really quite the opposite. Through my questions I’ve gained a deeper faith in Christ than I ever had before.

    Thanks Todd for hosting this discussion smile

  • Posted by
    Saturday, July 09, 2005 at 6:46 PM

    [I’m not sure I understand very much of what you had to write. You are in a different stage of your walk, and it’ll take awhile for me to catch up. But I’m still processing what you wrote. I think if we were to work through this we’d probably find out we agree on much more than we disagree.]

    Grey, we all grow at different rates and I’m glad you’re hoping to grow in the Grace and Knowledge of Jesus Christ.  We do agree on many of these issues, maybe skewed in one direction or the other but still in the same theatre.  My biggest concern in the absolute truth statements, if we are wrong in this area (a “core” starting point), everything else will follow the pattern from which it started.

    [It may seem like I’ve turned away from Christ based on what I’ve written, but it’s really quite the opposite. Through my questions I’ve gained a deeper faith in Christ than I ever had before.]

    It did seem that way to me but thank you for the clarification and like you, I have gained much from my questioning.  The point and purpose of questioning is to grow in the Grace and Knowledge of Jesus Christ and I encourage you to seek The Truth to this end.  If you have any questions of me, please feel free to ask anytime.

    Marie, my ultimate assumption when I made these statements is that grey is looking for employment in the ministry - maybe I’m wrong, maybe he is a new believer (maybe he is a she looking for a pastoral position???).  The point is, as a new believer or seasoned Christian, there are certain things that we should know or be taught right away.  1.  There are absolute truths (right now, the world is teaching there are NONE - that we can’t actually know anything).  2. that questions and “arguementations” are built on assumptions that may or may not be right or wrong (they too must be tested with Scripture).

    We’re all growing in our walks and I’m VERY happy that people are seeking The Truth.  How much more then should our leaders, pastors and teachers be able to provide these answers… yet, most cannot or will not (for many different reasons - see blog titled “pastors who don’t believe in God").

    We should all be ready to give an account for The Hope that lies within us and be able to stand in all boldness in defense of The Gospel.  This is my hope for all of us, including grey.  Hope that makes sense and you understand.

    My friends may we grow in the Grace and Knowledge of Jesus Christ.

  • Posted by
    Saturday, July 09, 2005 at 11:01 PM

    Number 100 is the greatest truth that you have learned!!  If you believe that, then you have no need to be concerned.  We don’t really believe that when God saves someone, their eyes are opened to see the truth.  When you find yourself confronting situations in church and you start having that “somethings not right, but I can’t put my finger on it” kind of feeling, you need to trust that feeling and investigate by asking all kinds of questions and searching scripture for the answers.  We need to trust that conversion is more than “words”, it is a spiritual awakening in our heart and the spirit that dwells within gives us those “not right” feelings.  We need to trust them and diligently seek the truth. 

    It seems as though God has done exactly that in your life.  My encouragement to you, however, is to be careful that the many distasteful things you witness and experience from professing Christians doesn’t alter your view of God.  He is always sovereign and good.  Let your trust and hope rest in that truth even when the church people around you seem like anything but christians. 

    You are so right!! God is sovereign and you will see the truth if God has opened your eyes by transforming your heart. 

    Let us know the Lord, let us press on to know him.  Hosea 3:6

  • Posted by Jonah Sackett
    Sunday, July 10, 2005 at 2:18 PM

    You are wound up way too tight bro.  You ever heard that saying “do you have to have it all figured out before it does you any good?” Reasoning together is good, but it seems to me you are spending a lot of time looking at the splinter in your brother’s eye and letting that become the focus of your entire existence.  You need to go out to the country and look at the night sky or something and refocus.

    Jesus said the two most important things we have to do while on this earth are to love God, then love our neighbor.  To explain how we are to love God He says “if you love me obey my commandments”.  As for loving others, He says to feed the hungry, clothe the poor, go the extra mile, turn the other cheek, etc.

    He did not say “witness” to your neighbor, or “preach” to them, just to love them.  Who is your neighbor?  If you are around homosexuals, love the homosexual.  If you are around rednecks, love the redneck.  If you are around motor heads, love the motor head.  If you are around business people, love them.  If you are around church people, love the church people.  Love people right where they are.  Life is tough, people need love more than they need anything else and God is love.  Spend more time loving people and less time fault finding and watch God change them.

    Focus your energy on those things each and every day and be content to let God do the rest.  God will use you as He sees fit every day if you let Him.  Flush the crap out of your mind and focus on loving Him and others.

    Here are Ten Fundamental Truths of Life:
    1. There is a God and you’re not Him.  Neither am I.
    2. God is sovereign, we are not “co-gods”.  We have to do what He says, even if we don’t like it, or understand it.
    3. God is our Creator, He is the very essence of life, the spark that makes things live.  God IS life.
    4. Love is.  It is light in the darkness, hope in an evil world.  God IS love.
    5. Truth is.  It is not relative, nor is it a matter of opinion.  Truth is knowable and applies to everyone at all times, whether you believe it or not.  God IS Truth.
    6. God’s Word is Truth.  Not a truth, but THE Truth, His laws.  Like peroxide on an infection, if God’s Word is applied, evil is defeated.  The Word IS the mind of God.
    7. Law is.  There are physical, spiritual and behavioral principles in place in the universe that cannot be broken without causing pain.  It is a reality that exists outside of us and acts upon us whether we believe it or not.  All choices we make must answer to the cause and effect laws of reality, for good or bad. God IS Ultimate Reality.
    8. Justice is.  We all have an innate sense of right and wrong, just and unjust that comes from God.  When men obey God’s laws and apply them via self-control, there can be justice.  Without obedience there is injustice and tyranny. God IS Justice.
    9.  Christ is.  Without Christ’s birth, ministry and resurrection, there is no hope for mankind.  Jesus IS the Messiah and the hope of eternal life.
    10.  Death is.  Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.  We will all one day come to the throne of God and answer for how we lived our lives on earth.

    Fundamentals are the key to almost everything.  Focus on them diligently and the rest of it will come together in His time, according to His will.
    Shalom,

  • Posted by
    Monday, July 11, 2005 at 11:56 AM

    WOW ... Grey ... Preach it Believer!

    i’d say i’m 95% in agreement with your comments. and i have no need to debate and try to convert you to my way of thinking on the other 5%.

    the church is desperately in need of even the smallest amount of honesty to itself.

    i’m in my 40s, 12 years of private catholic education, left tradition and experienced life’s good and bad, “radically” saved in my mid-20s, been a worshipper and worship leader, “on staff” in a mega-ministry and a few smaller ones since, grew up in California and now live in a small rural town in Colorado, married, three living children, lost one in childbirth, lived on mac’n cheese and tomato soup and on occasion on lobster and prime rib ... i’ve had a full life which i do believe God has blessed, i also have God-given gifts and abilitites i’ve used both in and out of the church.

    my spouse and i are believer’s, we deeply love God, honestly don’t under His ways and never presume upon Him ... what arrogance to think He owes me/us anything!

    but i have no desire to bring anyone (especially not my children) to the four walls of most churches in my community or the denominations i’ve visited ... the church crushes my heart, extinguishes my passion ... it wants my money to build bigger barns yet it denies me full access and disrespects my humanity, it prefers that i leave my brain at the door and simply accept its behavior and oftentimes confused teachings, it glorifies its pastors and leaders allowing far too much lack of accountability, it feeds my insecurities to hold me hostage to volunteerism, it always cries “more, more, more” and is never satisfied ...

    who i don’t see in most churches is ... Jesus ...
    you know, the guy we’ve read about in the gospels who had dirty feet from walking the hills of galilee or the dusty streets of jerusalem, the guy who calmed the storm and walked on water, who healed the sick, gave sight to the blind, forgave the sins of a woman caught in sin, ate with sinners because they knew they needed him, the guy who went out of his way for me

    it’s that guy, that God in human flesh, that i can’t seem to find in our churches today ... nevertheless, most members and leadership sit in the pews patting themselves on the backs over the little kingdoms they’ve built, leadership fighting to maintain control, power brokers deciding who is worthy enough, pure enough, spiritual enough, educated enough to be “on staff” or “in (voluntary) ministry” ... where is Jesus? 

    oh darn they asked him to leave because he wasn’t dressed right or smelled kind of terrible or didn’t have the right version of the bible ... the girls he showed up looked kind of “loose” and “did you see that one woman hanging all over him, she was worshipping him, how embarrassing!”
    “ you mean that was Jesus ... well, if i’d have known i would have given him my seat or maybe we could’ve had him deliver the message.”

    if i could only find Jesus again in the church ... then maybe i’d return to it

    but until then, i’ll walk the streets asking if someone has seen him, i’ll us my gifts to communicate about the Jesus i know who is alive on the pages of any bible they can pick up in any book store or maybe even steal from a church pew, after all nobody was using it and i’m sure they won’t miss it

    and the next one who criticizes or arrogantly thinks/believes/implies that they are better because they are using their gifts “within the church for the glory of God” ... just maybe i’ll ask them if they’ve met this friend of mine

  • Posted by
    Monday, July 11, 2005 at 12:49 PM

    Why me:
    You’re post reminds me of Jesus speaking to one of the seven churches:
    14"And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans[f] write,
    “These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15"I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,[g] I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17Because you say, “I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’--and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked-- 18I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

    22"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."“‘

    Like you, I believe Jesus has left the church and to commune with Jesus, those inside the church must hear Jesus and open the door to get outside the church, implying Jesus is NOT inside the church (even though they may say it over and over).

    Most today however believe they are the church of Philadelphia (of course they would being blind, naked, wretched, miserable and poor - what else is left but to deceive themselves further - no one (except those whom Jesus loves) wants to admit they are blind, naked, wretched, miserable and poor - so instead, they pretend and say “we have need of nothing, for we are rich in .... {fill in the blank, gifts, holy spirit, Jesus, Love, tolerance, etc}).

    One day we’ll find Jesus in the bankrupt businesses, lost jobs, unemployment and welfare lines and the christian feel good books of today will be used as kindling to keep warm.

    We’ll find Him helping those who were led astray by false doctrine and carnal minded leaders.

    We’ll find Him in the Scriptures (where He has always been) through Power in Knowledge, Understanding and Wisdom of not who WE are in Him but who HE IS in us.

  • Posted by
    Monday, July 11, 2005 at 1:34 PM

    I was blessed to read the original article and all the comments that followed. All who are in Christ are His good works in progress. From the posts I can see evidence of this and it is important that we are able to speak the truth in love to one another.

    The truth of the gospel remains that all who are born of God’s Spirit have this treasure in an earthen vessel. We should be able to speak the truth to one another in love. It is when we forget who we are in Christ that we do not see one another the way God sees us in Christ, as holy ones, saints. 

    It was not discouraging to read this article at all. It is only on the foundation of God’s grace that we are empowered to live a supernatural life. A life that fulfills God’s will by being joyful, prayerful and thankful. We tend to less than honest about our own lives and experiences this side of glory when we forget (or do not realize) who we are in Christ.

    Looking into the mirror of His Word, without masking ourselves and hiding behind some form of religiousity that is not Christ, we will see what God has done for us in Christ and we will be transformed. 

    When we look at the body of Christ with our carnal eyes we see all the flaws that are evident in the flesh of others. When we look with the eyes of faith, we see the body of Christ the way the Father sees us and the way the Son will present us to Him, as a spotless virgin, holy and blameless before Him in love.

  • Posted by
    Tuesday, July 12, 2005 at 6:03 AM

    If we look at the book of Acts, it says they met in their homes, shared praises, songs, worship, and communion.  How did the organized church get the idea of what it is today?  No wonder underground churches will prosper.  There will be no one to be “Seen” to perform, dictate, or violate “WHO” we are to worship.  It’s to be about Jesus and He has been left out of too many organized churches.  How dare anyone challenge the leadership on this or you find out not only is Jesus missing, but so are His messages of love, forgiveness, grace, reconciliation, etc.

  • Posted by
    Monday, July 18, 2005 at 10:40 AM

    In response to this, several things come to mind...Is the viewpoints expressed does it occur to the writer that he has the ability as a believer to correct these things he feels is wrong by constant and consistent prayer?  As a believer in Jesus Christ, according to the Bible, he is every bit a minister to all that he comes into contact with day to day? It is my job as well as his to pray, minister, exhort and love the entire body of Christ as a disciple of Christ?  In the New Testament, we read of a disagreement in the early church between Peter and Paul about eating certain foods...reading furthur, we can understand that something happened to bring that relationship back around and they each did what God wanted them to do...Also, and this is close to my heart as well...Many of the points brought up are points I used to have and made to anyone who would listen...But since then I have learned through God’s word that I am not responsible for the actions of others...I can pray and attempt to sway the opinions of others in a loving manner to bring them to the point in Chrisitian maturity they should be in accordance with the Word of God and not my personal opinion, this being a work of the Holy Spirit doing the conviction part of the equation.  I am expected to not fail to fellowship with other Chrisitians...so that being said, unless the Pastor of a church is teaching false doctrine according to the Bible, then I am to stay at that church and depend on it for my spiritual growth...See, the actitvites of any assembly is not my responsibility unless I am actively engaged in what is wrong...But I do have a duty to pray for the Pastor and staff that they will seek to do the expressed will of God.  I have not intended to sound harsh, cold or hard in my opinions but wanted to share my experiences of learning church is not about me and my family, or the Pastor or other members...its absolutley about the praise and worship of our Lord, Jesus Christ. We have the same responsibility to do and to think correctly based on the Holy Bible teachings as any other Chrisitian and its what we do or don’t do personally that God holds us responsible for every day.  I will add you dear brother to my prayer list and ask the Lord to show you in His word what the real truth is.  Thank you for tolerating me and my rather lengthy comments!

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