Good words Jeff...and this is exactly why I would have liked to talk to you one on one.  Heck...I should have just found out what your email was.  I apologize for posting this...it might have been an inappropriate forum for what I said. 

Thanks for clarifying some points about yourself.  I apologize if I offended you...but if some rebuke was helpful, I want to let that stand without apologizing.  I always try to ride the fine line of being gentle and loving, yet not bow at the modern idol of “niceness”, if you get my drift.  We each need rebuke and correction.  It makes us better.

Seriously...I felt an overwhelming and emotional burden for you when I read your post.  I prayed for you right then as I wrote those words.  If you hear anything from me loud and clear...please hear that last statement.  Grace.

Rick,

Thanks for your insight. I guess I’d really consider myself a “4.5 pointer.” I understand the end result of Limited Atonement as Biblical, however, I still have problems reconciling it to verses such as John 3:16 and 1 Jn 2:2. These verses say that God loved “the world” - not just the elect. 1 Jn says that Jesus is the propitiation for the *whole* world - not just the elect. So, even though I understand that in the end, Christ’s sacrifice for us is applied only to the elect, or effective for the elect, I still have a hard time accepting that Jesus didn’t die for the non-elect based on these verses. So, I’m still working through it. Since I’m still working through it, I guess I’d be better labled as a 4.5 pointer!

Also, thanks for your encouraging words at the end. It is a subject I’ll be studying for years to come.

--Dave

To: David S.

You said, “Total Depravity teaches that this is exactly what we need - the influence of the Holy Spirit and the truth of the Word to bring us to this choice.”

If that were the totality of the teaching on Total Depravity then I would accept the dogma.  But that which I have read defines “Total Depravity” as “Total Inability” and places my choice of receiving Christ exclusivly in God’s predetermined programing of me, giving Him sole responsibility for who populates heaven and leaving no responsibility on me for my decision - i.e. fatalism.  Can one loved and pursued by God ultimately reject Him of his on volition?  I believe they can.

Simply put - to make his ways “viewable” to us - I believe God descibes his eternal purpose in salvation in the following order (though he sees it differently). 
1.  Foreknowledge
2.  Election
3.  Predestination

The influence of the scripture and the Spirit still allows for me to make a freewill choice.  Right?  If foreknowledge preceeds foreordination then I can see the doctrine of election a little more clearly - though I still have questions....

Thanks for reading me musings David S. 

Pastor Dave,

Thank you for your thoughts. I can appreciate them. I understand what you mean by Total Depravity becoming Total Inability. I think that many times we (those who see this in scripture) try to put the end at the beginning. As I study Romans 3 and Psalm 53, I see Total Depravity being taught there, but not the Total Inability, as you state. Total Inability comes from the idea of Total Depravity. Since we are completely depraved, the logical outcome is that we are then unable to choose God. Therefore, many times we are guilty of placing Inability at the forefront, rather than it being a by-product of our Depravity. I have been guilty of doing this, and I will be sure to keep both in their proper place and context.

You asked, “The influence of the scripture and the Spirit still allows for me to make a freewill choice. Right?” That is correct. We are still allowed to make a freewill decision - however, according to Romans 3, and Ps 53, that decision is *always* rejecting of God. Understanding this is the key to understanding the doctrine of election. These passages teach that in our free will, in our depraved state, we *never* choose God. This is why election is so important. That’s because without God choosing us, no one would be saved. So yes, God has “sole responsibility for who populates heaven.” However, given our depravity, if it was completely left up to us, no one would be there.

I had a hard time accepting all this because I was hung up on wanting it to be *my* decision. *I* wanted to be the one who made the choice. It was all about me, and not about God. But as I began to learn more about the purpose of salvation - it’s ultimate purpose is to glorify God (Eph 2:6-7) - I saw that salvation is more about God than it is about me. If *I* make the right choice of my own accord, then *I* am the one glorified for making the right decision. However, by God choosing me (us) to demonstrate His grace, *He* is the one who is then glorified.

I hope this helps!

David S.

Dave S. and Rick…

Your answers are clear and well phrased.  Among the better treatments of the subjuect I have ever read.  It is a tough one I know and I dobt I will ever feel completely comfortable with my theology on election this side of heaven.  I respect the doctrine to the immediate right and left of my posittion - I just keep looking further down the line in both directions and seeing things that I know do not fit with scripture (according to my understanding of it anyway) so I am afraid to budge… if you know what I mean…

If I were a Calvinist - I would not have a burden for souls… although some Calvinists do.
If I were an Arminianist (spelling?) I would have no hope of heaven… although some of them do.
I try to be a reasonable Biblicist and state the clear truth and keep studying the mysterious.

Admittidly - I still believe that I chose to return to God, (in response to his powerful wooing, the dynamic influence of the Word, the hooible fear of hell and the influence of God’s people around me).  I would never have sought for Him on my own.  I could have continued to reject Him if I had so desired. 

Yet, I have doubts and questions about my own theology when it comes to that last statement…

Lord help me!  And I am a pastor?

To: David Wantz.

David, you ask some very good questions. I hope I can be of some help to you here in this post. By the way, I hope we can keep all the “David’s” straight here!!

You asked, “Is it possible that God continually calls to ALL of us “inherently self-centered” humans even though He is aware through foreknowledge of those who will eventually hear and accept His Call?

That’s a good question, and in it, you are demonstrating the classic struggle between election and foreknowledge. Many have been taught and believe that God’s elective choice is based on Him looking into the future and seeing who will respond to His offer of Grace. However, I believe that this comes from a misunderstanding of the doctrine of Foreknowledge.

I submit that God’s Foreknowledge was not so much Him looking into the future to see who would respond to salvation, but rather God looking into the future and seeing those whom He has predetermined to call to salvation. I hope you can grasp the difference, as it is quite great. So, in light of this view of Foreknowledge, the answer to your question would be “no” - because the traditional view of foreknowledge and election are incompatible.

>>Is it likely the Spirit is continually calling to every person to repent and receive Grace? Would it seem just if the Spirit were allowed to withhold the Call from anyone? <<

Those are good questions as well. Is it just for the Spirit to withhold the Call? Let me answer that question by asking a question. Do any of us *deserve* salvation? Do any of us *deserve* God’s Grace? Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us “no.” In reality, every one of us - including the elect - deserves eternal separation from God for our sin (Ro 1:18; Col 3:5-7). According to scripture, that is what is truly “just.” That is why salvation is by God’s Grace, because it’s something we don’t deserve.

>>Did God give us free-will as part of being created in His image? If God is just and righteous, must not He allow the free-will He gave us the choice of accepting or rejecting His Call? Could God therefore be allowing this “predestination?"<<

Yes, God gave us Free-Will when He created us. And “yes,” He allowed us the Free-Will to choose to either accept or reject His offer of Salvation. And that’s what the above discussions have been about - that according to Romans 3:10-18 and Ps 53:2-3, in his depraved condition, man rejects this offer from God every time. It therefore becomes necessary that God elects us to salvation, otherwise, none would be saved. Did God then give us the choice to accept or reject His *Call*, as you asked? According to Calvinism - “no.” This is the point about Irresistible Grace - John 6:37. If God has called us to salvation, He changes our will so that we respond to His Call.

>>Would it seem to the observer or Biblical author that God knows and selects the “elect?” As a Father, wouldn’t God constantly hope that even the most lost soul would finally accept His freely offered Grace provided by the death of Christ? Could it be that humans are the ones who “limit” God’s “atonement?"<<

Yes, God does “hope” or “wish” that - 2 Pet 3:9 tells us this - but we need to understand “hope/wish” in the proper context. Do *we* limit God’s atonement? In a way, “yes.” We limit it in that of our own Free Will, we reject God and turn our back on Him. So, once again, if it was left completely up to us - no one would be saved. (If this is not what you had in mind by this question, I am not sure what you meant, then.)

>>I do not know how predestination and free-will somehow co-exist, but I know that it is not a great stretch for God. I know this because you can find both concepts in the scriptures.<<

Please refer to the previous posts that I have written, and those from Rick White. Hopefully they can shed some light on this relationship and how they actually *do* co-exist and are not contradictory.

>>...Nor would He establish a system of punishment and then ordain a particular group to receive it, no matter how much they desired to be in His loving embrace.<<

That is an excellent observation, and you are correct. God would not do that. However, once again, according to Romans 3:10-18, and Ps 53:2-3, left to himself, mankind does not desire to be in God’s loving embrace. This is, again, why it is necessary for God to call us to Himself. Understanding these passages is the key to understanding the doctrine of election.

David, you have asked some very good questions, many of the same questions I and others have asked about this doctrine. I hope these thoughts have been of help to you.

Blessings!

David S.

I am not a theologian or pastor. However, I lost my job and first marrage years ago and I wanted answers. I turned to the Bible and discovered NUMEROUS verses that I never heard taught, or preached before. The sad thing was I was not sure if I was one of the “elect”. After reading the scriptures, I discovered that I could be. I prayed to God to show me that how I was intepreting what I was reading was really true and to confirm it. I then heard radio sermons (including Adrian Rogers) and others. I also did some internet research on the matter and discovered that this doctrine is 100% true on all five points. The evidence is there regardless on how I “feel” about it. Once I get my C.D. files, I will cut and paste the verses that support all five points. It seems that many pastors censure the Bible and don’t preach the whole council of God. Even the church that I attend will give alter calls for “decisions” regarding church membership, baptism and to be “born again”. However ,they do not preach the alternatives if you don’t. Whatever happened to those Purtanical sermons like those Jonathan Edwards used to preach?