The headlines now read like a Bible Prophecy Checklist....

57% of Evangelicals and 82% of mainline protestants are now Universalists? Hmmm, Let’s see....

“Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being assembled to meet him ... Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion [in the original greek: apostasy - ‘great falling away’] comes first, and the lawless [one] is revealed, the son of perdition...” 2Thess 2:1,3

Todd Bentley and the Lakeland “Revivals” Hmmmm, let’s see....

“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils...” 1Timothy 4:1

Felt needs and Social Justice are the top priority of the Church? Hmmm, lets see.....

“Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord...” Amos 8:11

People Get ready !!!!

Wow.
I’m not sure I’d WANT to poll my congregation on this. I’d be scared to find out what the results are. But I would guess we’d be right on track with that average.
Maybe I’ll wait a few weeks and let our new pastor tackle it.

Check GetReligion for a helpful perspective on this. The results are still intriguing, but they probably don’t mean what our first reaction tells us.

First of all, it’s a survey.  If you ask the questions a certain way you can greatly influence the answers you get.  “57% of EVANGELICALS Believe that Many Religions Can Lead to Eternal Life” is an interpretation of the survey results?

When you have Catholics and Protestants listed as different religions, rather than listing them both as Christian, I’m not sure how I would answer either.  Do I agree with the Catholic Church? No, that’s why I’m not Catholic.  But do I believe that God does not consider them Christians and that God cannot/will not extend His grace to them? 

“The Roman Catholic Church teaches that the “one church of Christ ... subsists in the Catholic Church” alone and that Protestant churches, while defective, can be “instruments of salvation.” If Catholics believe I’m wrong but can still be an instrument of salvation why shouldn’t I believe they can still be an instrument of salvation?

For me to declare that the way I believe is the only way to heaven, even though scripture tells me it is, seems tantamount to me telling God what He is allowed to do.  I know, the difference may be too subtle for some to grasp, but to me there is a difference between saying “Scripture tells me… Jesus is the only way to heaven” and saying “Jesus is the only way to heaven and God will not extend His grace to anyone who doesn’t believe in Jesus”.

Also, only 57% of evangelicals said that other religions could lead to eternal life while 83% of those affiliated with Mainline churches said the same, so at least Evangelicals are still more dogmatic than the Mainline churches. 

Is it coincidence that the two groups with a majority opinion that their way is the only way to eternal life, Mormons (57%) and Jehovah’s Witnesses (80%), are the two groups many Christians would say are brain-washed cults?

ryan,

I always thought that maybe Martin Luther had all the stomach problems he had because he maintained that diet of worms. too much psalter, maybe, too…

And… do ya know I always understood that the reason he allegedly said “Here I stand, I can do no other” was simple. Nobody offered him a seat, and all the pews were full!

Pity that history is so misunderstood… (I really liked the definition of propitiation.)

Mark,

Judgmentalism can be very very bad indeed, you are right. But you are totally off base, imho, with your interpretation of Matthew 7.  In context, or by itself, Matthew 7:21 is not saying that “if you are sitting around judging others then you yourself won’t be going to heaven.”

Oops, I remember you Mark.

I didn’t mean to engage you in any fashion whatsoever. SO sorry… (I think you’re the one who told me that I was going to… well… not to heaven at any rate...)

Forget it…

Mark, if you were really interested in discussing anything I’d think you’d put in you real e-mail address instead of making up a phony one to try and hide.

You’re out of line.  You’re just plain wrong and you’re rude about it.

Matthew 1:1 begins the list of Jesus’ ancestors; it doesn’t say anything about sin.

Maybe you meant Matthew 7:1 - Do not judge others, and you will not be judged.  For you will be treated as you treat others. The standard you use in judging is the standard by which you will be judged.

So, yes, we should not presume to judge to whom God’s grace will be granted, but we are called to be discerning and to correct our brothers in Christ when they are wrong, so we do have to judge when they are wrong in order to know when to provide correction.

So what is the context of Matthew 7?  What type of judging is he talking about?  Not the type you’re reading into it.

And Matthew 7:21 does NOT clearly show “ if you are sitting around judging others then you yourself won’t be going to heaven”.  This passage doesn’t mention judging at all, it has to do with being true disciples.

And, by the way, Peter stated his humble opinion and noted that it was his humble opinion by the letters (imho).  You might want to investigate the humble part of that; study some scripture, search your heart, do a little praying, and let God speak to you in this area.  Because imho this is a sin you are guilty of and it is evidenced by the lack of humility and grace in your comments.

Doh! There I go being judgmental again.

Mark, you’re delusional.  People don’t hide from you, they just ignore you.  Contact Peter if you really want to talk to him.  I think he’s just not wanting to trade rants with you like a couple of lunatics.  My e-mail is there if you want to talk to me. Yours is evidently a fake, so who’s hiding?

E-mail me if you want to talk.  If you just want to see your own delusional words in print, post away.

And again, you should think about the humility thing.  Pray and let God speak to you in this area.  It couldn’t hurt.

DanielR said:
>"Mark, you’re delusional.”

Peter said:
>”...you truly are a troll...”

Both of you have taken to calling me names and neither of you bother to explain the basis for your thinking. You repeat talking points as if you have them memorized but have no idea where they came from. This is truly a sad state for so-called christians to be in.  And they when you attack me, you two embarrass yourselves and your religion with these childish behaviors.

If there are any adults actually following this discussion then they can read Matthew 7 for themselves and make up their own minds.

Its very clear that christians who sit around and judge whether or not others will go to heaven will not themselves go to heaven.  This is not my opinion. Its in the bible plain as day. Jesus will tell them in Matthew 7:21: “away from me. I never knew you”

Peter wrote:
>"The next time I engage you it will be
> because I know who you are.
> till then… out… “

Peter, It’s the fourth time you have said this.  You keep making promises to zip your lip and you keep breaking them.  Why should I believe promise number 4 when the first three turned out to be bald faced lies?  The two of you still haven’t explained the basis for the special “context” you claim applies to Matthew 7.  I’m still waiting.  Till then....  your credibility is shot.

Thanks, Leonard,

I wanted to give every chance I could. I have. I’m done. You’re right. (I think my credibility is pretty darn intact here, too...)

Perhaps our good host, Todd, might make it a rule that if you have no legitimate contact info, your post gets erased.

Mark,

Consider the possibility that my participating after I say I’m going to bow out is actually an extension of grace. It would be more “cowardly” to not engage at all.

I’m going to assume for the moment that there is a good reason for your anonymity and for your tone over your MMI posts, and yes… I’m going to engage your Matthew 7 debate. Since a similar passage is crucial to a sermon I will be preaching in August, I’ve been thinking about it a great deal. I am honestly of the opinion that this will not change your opinion one bit, but you will at least have to admit that I’ve engaged you in this. (Some think I’m wasting my time… but God loves you, Mark, and it’s worthwhile because of that.)

When you encounter 7:1, you rightly look to see how it applies and fits with the rest of the passage, and some of us have contended that your connection of 7:1 with 7:21 - 23 is not accurate. When I look at that second passage (in context also with the passages DIRECTLY around it, which is where one always look first for interpretation), I see a very interesting idea about “fruit” (vs 15 - 20, relating to false prophets) and the importance of listening to and following Jesus’ teaching (vs 24 - 27). This context does not necessarily support the direct correlation that you have proposed, that those who judge whether others are “saved” or not are doomed to hell. Indeed your contention in other posts on this forum (as I dimly recall) follows a universalist bent, arguing that there may indeed be many paths to Heaven other than Christ. (I’m not sure you believe that, do you?) In fact, Scripture taken as a whole is pretty clear that Jesus is the “path to heaven” (although He is so much more than that). My contention is that your linking of these two scriptures is driven by and/or drives a universalist view which is contrary to Scripture. It is very clear that there is a standard God holds us to in order to be part of His Kingdom, and Scripture makes it very clear what that is. It is knowable, and those who have been given new life in Christ have it in a “knowable” fashion. (By their fruits you shall know them.)

But where your contention about judgmentalism leading to damnation really falls apart in my view is when you look at the ideas Jesus puts forth in Matthew 7:21 - 23 in light of Jesus’ other similar teachings, another crucial step in the proper understanding of Scripture (or any literary work for that matter). In fact, we don’t even have to leave this Gospel to find the clarification we need. The end of Matthew 25 is the most notable place in all the Gospels where Jesus addresses the idea of damnation and the “final judgment”. It is a very interesting and necessary part of understanding Jesus’ view of these things. Matthew 25: 31-46 makes it very clear (and uncomfrotably so) that people will be judged by how they behaved when confronted with the hungry, the thirsty, the stranger, the naked, the imprisoned… what we often call “the least of these”. Nowhere in this passage does Jesus imply or even give us the grounds to infer that judgment is based on “how we judged others” (although I contend that indeed, judging others in the context of Matthew 7:1 is very wrong indeed).

Mark, I hope you will prayerfully and carefully consider what I’ve said here. It requires more space than is available or appropriate here to delve into much deeper, and I would relish the opportunity to discuss it with you one-on-one. But arguing any further than this in this public forum is probably not what the owner of MMI (Todd) wants us to do.

The key issue for me is that I feel strongly that your views are Universalist in nature, which I contend is at odds with a Christ-following understanding of Scripture. If indeed your views are driven by a Universalist worldview, then, theologically, we may have little more or nothing else to talk about here.

Blessings,
Peter