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88% of Evangelical Children Leave the Church After High School

Orginally published on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 at 8:50 AM
by Todd Rhoades

As a parent of four kids the stat in this article really grabbed my attention. What do I have to do as a parent to make sure my kids make the cut. And what is/can my church do to keep 88% of our current youth from abandoning the church?

(AgapePress) - The new president of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) says he is disturbed that many students in both public and private schools—even Christian private schools—are leaving the church once they graduate.

In 2002, the SBC’s Council on Family Life reported that roughly 88 percent of evangelical children are leaving the church shortly after they graduate from high school. Dr. Frank Page, the denomination’s new president, says SBC churches need to counter that statistic by finding ways to make themselves more relatable, more pertinent and significant to students before they graduate.

“We’re seeing a societal trend where a large number of young people are opting out of the church,” Page notes. ”Estimates of 15 to 20 million people now in America have said they are Christians but they simply don’t want to be a part of the church,” he says.

Some blame the church “drop-out rate” among young people after they graduate on the secularist influence of America’s public schools. However, the SBC’s president observes, ”The sad thing is that we’re seeing that number of dropouts from church [among] those who went to public school and private school, and that’s an unfortunate trend.”

Although he admits he has no “hard numbers” to back up his contention that graduates from private Christian schools are leaving the church almost as rapidly as others, Page says he is referencing anecdotal information heard from this year’s Resolutions Committee at the recent SBC meeting in Greensboro, North Carolina. “It is a disturbing trend,” he asserts, “and part of it is that our churches have become one- or two-generation churches, and we’ve failed to learn how to reach out to this younger generation.”

The Southern Baptist leader says churches must find ways to connect with this young adult demographic—Generation X, the bridger generation, or “whatever you want to call it”—and must do a better job of discipling members of this group. A big part of the problem, he contends, “is that our churches simply are not relating to or seeming relevant to these students.”

Even though Christian students are under attack for their beliefs in many public schools today, Page believes those who are firmly grounded in their faith can have a “salt and light” influence on their peers and teachers. Nevertheless, the SBC president says his prayer is that more churches will begin offering Christian schools, both for families who can and for those who cannot afford such education.

So… how do parents and churches partner together to make sure we don’t lose nearly 90% of our next generation of church goers?


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  There are 95 Comments:

  • Posted by
    Tuesday, August 08, 2006 at 2:05 PM

    BeHim writes… “What is the world coming to when church leaders stand against a Christian Education”

    I don’t think anybody said that.

  • Posted by
    Tuesday, August 08, 2006 at 2:29 PM

    Daniel said: “Our youth (and it’s really not their fault, since this is a standard evangelical belief) believes that if they ‘give their heart to Jesus’ by saying a sinner’s prayer or something like that, then they have eternal fire-insurance, regardless of how they live their lives--and that that’s the essnce of Christianity.  Doctrinally, that’s a load of hogwash.  But it goes beyond doctrine to mission.”

    This is a good part of the right answer. If once saved, always saved, why go to church?  Our focus on individual salvation rather than working in the world to bring about the kingdom of God has created this attitude of “I’m done!”

    Additionally—I haven’t seen this mentioned here—personally, I was so jaded and hurt by a Hell-based fundamentalist theology that the minute I could get away from it, I did.  Christianity was about the predestined few getting through the narrow gate and looking down on the damned many. About avoiding hell rather than spreading love. Funerals were not about comforting the grieving, but about alter calls to ‘repent now, for the end is near.’ You lived your life fearing the wrath of an angry God, not feeling his wonderful grace.

  • Posted by
    Tuesday, August 08, 2006 at 2:36 PM

    Peter:  Oh you mean just like no one suggested what you were said in your satire?

    Look if people don’t want to take your children out of the public school system, that’s up to them.

    Todd asked for suggestions on what parents and churches can do to partner.

    I think I have a legitimate Biblical suggestion.

    Would you send your children to a Muslim school?  What about a Mormon school?  WHY NOT???  They could be a great light and salt there.

    Why would you send them to an atheist school (public school) - a system that by-in-large opposes God, The Bible and Christianity?

    If you’re reason for sending your child to an atheist school is to be a light and salt then I suggest you start going to adult rated movies, whore houses, bars and all manner of evil places so you too as an adult can lead by example and be a light and salt.

    What this really says is that 88% of the children aren’t being 1. taught: which SHOULD cause any church leader to question their teaching 2. they don’t believe what they are being taught – which should again cause the teacher to take inventory.

    I disagree with making it more relevant.  Our point of contact with EVERY person on earth is sin.  We don’t need rock stars and shiny lights or counting ourselves into an altered state of consciousness, we need to connect with people on the level we are all at.  We are sinners in the hands of an angry God - His Wrath is ONLY appeased IN Christ.

    There is no love if you cannot or will not share this basic understanding of scripture.

    If a person is NOT IN Christ then he/she is judged already (in God’s Wrath).

  • Posted by
    Tuesday, August 08, 2006 at 3:01 PM

    Peter said: “We are in the world not of it, and we are called to make disciples, not just believers in right doctrine”

    What is a “disciple” in your mind Peter? Is it the one who reveres and abides in the message of their master or the one who shy’s away from adhering to all the master’s teaching? Is a “disciple” the one who gladly accepts correction or the one who is right in his own eyes and refuses correction? Is a “disciple” one that obeys or one that refuses to obey?
    Those are a few very simple questions that should not be difficult to answer, the substance of which exemplifies the nature of differences one can see when stepping back and taking a look at the state of the church in America and the reports of churches in places like China, Sudan or Peru or India. I wonder if there is this type of a problem when real persecution is prevalent in the society, where a Christian risks their life by making a profession of faith? I don’t have any resource from which to substantiate my opinion, but it is simply this, you will not find such a state in those countries because their profession is tested in fire, born of the Spirit and they are Believers who have crucified their flesh to answer Jesus command to Deny oneself, take up their cross and follow Him. Jesus said in Matt. 15:8-9:
    ‘ These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
    And honor Me with their lips,
    But their heart is far from Me.
    And in vain they worship Me,
    Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”
    If one does not regard the teaching of sound doctrine as critical of an obedient pastor, as many SS/PD embracing churches seem to do, how then can one be sure they are not among those identified by Jesus here?

  • Posted by
    Tuesday, August 08, 2006 at 3:07 PM

    BeHim writes:

    “I disagree with making it more relevant. “ Well, then perhaps this is the crux of the matter, since my understanding has always been that Todd’s site is all about discussions about how to do church in interesting, engaging, “progressive” perhaps, and relevant ways. I really enjoy our exchanges, BeHim… in fact, I enjoy them and perhaps learn from them more than a lot of other exchanges I have on this forum, however, it’s perhaps possible that we are at crossed purposes here.

    On the other hand, you wrote “ ...we need to connect with people on the level we are all at” which is, interestingly enough, what those of us who do church in relevant, progressive ways feel strongly that we are doing, and you seem often to think we are not doing.

    And yes, I agree that you have a legitimate and perhaps biblical suggestion in all this. A TON of people agree with your conclusion, too. So I’m glad you shared it.

  • Posted by
    Tuesday, August 08, 2006 at 3:28 PM

    John 336,

    I think by selecting a specific portion of my quote, you are inadvertently making me to say something I didn’t. The definition in the latest lexicon for the greek word “mathetes” which is translated disciple, means “one who engages in learning through instruction from another”. Surely you are not suggesting that this learning is doctrinal only and has no impact on our behavior? MUCH of Jesus’ teadching centers on right behavior and action, and much centers on sound doctrine. I certainly did not shirk from volunteering that sound doctrine is important (you left out “as important as that is” in your quote). Please don’t quote me in a manner that twists what I actually said. I will try my best to not do this to you either.

    You state later “If one does not regard the teaching of sound doctrine as critical of an obedient pastor, as many SS/PD embracing churches seem to do, how then can one be sure they are not among those identified by Jesus here?” Sorry, I guess I haven’t been exposed to these churches that don’t regard teaching of sound doctrine as critical. I think you’re generalizing more than a little.

    Anyway, we’re off topic. (and perhaps not “relevant”...) grin

    Blessings,
    Peter

  • Posted by
    Tuesday, August 08, 2006 at 4:27 PM

    [On the other hand, you wrote “ ...we need to connect with people on the level we are all at” which is, interestingly enough, what those of us who do church in relevant, progressive ways feel strongly that we are doing, and you seem often to think we are not doing.]

    If it were so, then we would agree, we don’t need new and interesting ways to connect, since our starting point is - we are all sinners - and the Gospel is the good news of Freedom from the slavery of sin.

    I would suggest however the post-modern, relevant, progressive movement is engaging more in trying to avoid talking about the starting point.  Seeking new and interesting ways to avoid talking about sin including corrupting The Gospel message with the ideas of the world and men.  Absent of Biblical exegesis and prevalent with eisegesis.  Like 2 Peter 3:9 - pouring meaning into the text.

    I’m sure you agree this goes way off topic.

  • Posted by
    Tuesday, August 08, 2006 at 4:59 PM

    BeHim,

    It’s only a teeny little bit off topic… How we communicate the Gospel to “emerging generations” is exactly the point of this post.

    You wrote “If it were so, then we would agree, we don’t need new and interesting ways to connect, since our starting point is - we are all sinners - and the Gospel is the good news of Freedom from the slavery of sin.” I wouldn’t agree that we don’t need new and interesting ways to connect. I don’t think using the “same old ways” to connect, if you will, is biblical at all. Jesus coming was a “new way” for God to connect with man (Heck, the new additions to the Hebrew Bible were even called “The New Testament"). His parables were relevant and made use of examples from everyday life, fishing and farming, even landowning.

    He found ways to use everyday occurrences in his life to communicate his message, whether that’s a sinful woman washing his feet, or a gentile begging for her child to be healed, or a Roman centurion demonstrating the real meaning of authority in his own request for help. Jesus was INCREDIBLY relevant in his teaching. He met people where they were, in their world. This is what those whom you are accusing of being “prevalent with eisegesis” are often attempting to do.

    However, I think I’ll let this go at that, since you and I are both probably way over our limit for this topic, and Todd is being very gracious if he doesn’t start deleting our posts.

  • Posted by
    Tuesday, August 08, 2006 at 5:11 PM

    At the risk of getting back on target, what can we do to encourage our children to continue to walk with God after High school?  How about looking at our kids as our kids, the state I live in (Washington) recognizes that the children are actually, primarily the responsibility of the parents and we delegate certain things to ‘experts’. But delegation occurs when the one who holds the responsibility decides to allow certain ones to do certain things, this does not take away the primary responsibility.  I have three children all now out of P.S.’s something I saw many times was parents dropping their children off at pre-school and thinking they could come back 18-19 years later to pick them up, this happened in Christian schools as well.  We allow our children to be immersed in the culture and often forget that as their parents we must make certain decisions for them.  It is possible to opt-out of many of the non-academic times (about 1/3 of the average school day in Wa State is non-academic)

    What about praying with our children daily/nightly regarding individuals in their lives as well as in ours regarding their walk with God?  Letting them hear us pray that they will know that God is with them and that He will help them act like it?  What about being wuthentic enough with our kids to ask them to pray for us?  What about having something besides the pastor or the board member or associate or parishioner for lunch on sunday?

    How about asking them to help out at church, reaching out to someone in the neighborhood and letting them see us doing it, (as a non-paid volunteer). 

    And no I did not raise perfect children, they sometimes think about and then choose sin, just like most of us have (and will).  The fault (responsibility) I fear, lies not simply with the church… but with us

  • Posted by
    Tuesday, August 08, 2006 at 5:16 PM

    Amen Layne

  • Posted by
    Tuesday, August 08, 2006 at 5:17 PM

    How about some input from the mother of a prodigal who is in the 88% . . .

    There are a hundred things we would do differently as parents if we knew then what we know now . . . but we did pray plenty (before and during the prodigal years).  Parenting isn’t the subject of this post however.

    Just last week I had a great conversation with my prodigal about this very issue.  He was telling me that once he’s married and has kids, he knows he’ll be interested in “that Christianity thing” again.  I won’t give you a blow by blow of our discussion, but eventually I asked him to describe his church experience growing up, how he felt about it then and now, how it contributed to his life as an adult (27 years old), what, if anything, his church experience has to do with his faith.  Here is a summary (from his perspective):

    “At church I learned some good values and I learned about God.  I think it gave me a good foundation.  I’m glad you took me to church.  I’m glad I went to Sunday school and camp.  I never resented you making me go.  I made some good friends at church and liked church because it was where I saw my friends.  At the time, I liked all the stuff we did.

    But eventually I lost interest.  The activities seemed silly and shallow.  I know that I asked Jesus into my heart when I was a little boy, but I didn’t really understand what that meant.  I never connected church to faith, and I don’t think I really have any faith.  But that is okay with me right now.  Since I had a good experience learning values and about God at church, I will want my kids to have the same experience.  Then . . . when they are old enough . . . I’ll want them to decide for themselves whether or not to go to church.”

    Now the good news is we’re having some really great conversations about church, and I know we’ll soon have some conversations about faith.  He is exactly the kind of person who should be weighing in on this subject, because he IS the 88%.  One of our biggest downfalls in ministry is that we don’t ask the right questions of the right people

    - If we want to know if our church seems friendly to visitors – ask a visitor.
    - If we want to know if our ministries are relevant, helpful, effective with the unchurched – ask the unchurched who have tried us.
    - If we want to know how to hang on to kids that have left the church – ask those that have left.

    My son is going to be my best church consultant in the coming days.

    Wendi

  • Posted by Daniel
    Tuesday, August 08, 2006 at 5:26 PM

    As always Wendi, your input is much needed, and much appreciated.
    Blessings.

  • Posted by
    Tuesday, August 08, 2006 at 6:19 PM

    thank you, Wendi…

    Unfortunately too often we refuse to listen to the right people and hide behind systems of theology to defend it.  I hope that we would all be open to communicating with people outside of the church to figure out how to really begin to reach them…

    I would be highly interested in hearing more of your son’s story…

  • Posted by John Mulholland
    Tuesday, August 08, 2006 at 8:32 PM

    Snoop said..."It is my feeling that churches rely on youth ministry too much… they rely on youth ministry to do ministry in a way that keeps students happy in church.  The sad truth is that this mindset results in a radical disconnect between what goes on in “big church” and what goes on in the student ministry arena. “

    Nail, meet head.  Perfect.  Awesome...I love it.  As a youth minister myself, I talk all the time about openess, honesty and authenticity as the goal for the church.  For the most part, they get that at youth group and in Sunday school.  Then, they graduate, and go to big boy church where people sit on their hands, or stand with them folded across chests and mouths shut, afraid to confess because of what others might say or do about it.  Then they leave because they want nothing to do with it.

    We were on a mission trip to San Luis Potosi Mexico last week, and me and several students had this same conversation...Here’s my recap of the conversation....

    “We finished out Sunday night with group devotional time.  The conversation and discussion went very well, with some personal admissions about our attitudes towards God and our relationship with Him.  A few of us sat up late (1:30am) and played Phase 10.  We had a great conversation pertaining to the American church and it’s future, relating to the fact that within 30 years, the mass of Christians in the world will not be westernized, but will come from Latin America, Africa and Asia, and what the response from Americans in particular will be to that paradigm shift.  We also discussed why the vast majority of youth leave the church after high school, and how, frankly, the church owns that.  As an example, during the church service, one of the members here admitted to being a drunk in his past, and how he had been washed clean by Christ.  Our discussion later that night centered on the fact that as American Christians we would never fess up to that.  Also, in our group time, one of the group members admitted to a feeling of God “owing her” a spiritual high because she was here in Mexico.  Most of the group, when pressed, confessed to similar thoughts.  Honestly, that kind of confession would never happen within the context of Sunday morning, and not because it is inappropriate, but because it is an attitude of humility that we sorely lack as a culture.  How does this relate to youth leaving the church?  Simple.  They come here, or go to a conference, and hear that they should be honest, open and authentic, yet when they return home, their Sunday morning worship experience is anything but honest, open and authentic.  And because there is no confessed sin, for all intents and purpose, we have no sin, and because WE have no sin, it is easy for us to point out the sin and faults of others.  We harp and harp on the sins of the world, argue about things like worship style and carpet color, that we forget we are in constant need of a savior.  Our youth see right through the nonsense, and want no part of it.  So, how do we fix it?  We need to be open and authentic, regardless of consequence.  Like Mark Driscoll from Mars Hill Church in Seattle says, we need to be a lot harder on Christians, and stop giving passes to Christians who treat others poorly, and more lenient on those of the world who do not have Christ, and should be expected to do nothing but sin.  The church must hear this message, because soon, within those 30 years, our worthless worship disagreements will pale in comparison to our irrelevance in a world where westernized Christianity is, for all intents and purposes, dead.  The choice is up to you church.  Do you want to keep your kids, or not?”

    find it at http://www.xanga.com/Eastview_Chronicles .

  • Posted by
    Tuesday, August 08, 2006 at 9:23 PM

    Wow, hot topic! I have appreciated your comments Peter Hamm and Wendi. 

    I am one of the 12% who stayed in church (29 years old).  I was a “PK” and am now a “PW”, (Pastors Wife).  I will try and share briefly...haha!

    1.  I would never, ever send my kids to a Christian school.  It may work for some but I was never more hurt by gossip and slander, or more bound by legalism and religous rules than those 3 years in “Christian School”.  I have to admit it played a role in my spiritual development at a crucial time (jr high years) but it was also a relief (and a shock...you mean people smoke?  ANd they dont get expelled???) to return to the public system at age 15.  Most friends I remember turned out no better or worse (and no more dispassionate) than those Christian friends from public school.  Many did buckle as soon as they hit University.
    I think the key is that your kids have a BALANCED, prayerful, non-hypocritical home life and as many Christian friends as possible to balance out the wordly influence.  I appreciated Layne s comments about praying with your kids day and night which is what I do with my 5-yr old.  That said, I also chose her public school very carefully (a small intimate atmosphere with wonderful teachers and emphasis on character traits every month) for her vulnerable early years grades JK-3.  BALANCE IS THE KEY...protection and mentoring along with experiences that help them see a hurting world and reach out to it.  If they grow up feeling like they’re from another planet (aka Christian school) how will they ever relate to a lost world?  I have a lot of trouble being comfortable and not nervous in some settings for example, at a secular, staff Christmas party.  I don’t know how to relate to people in that atmosphere.  I don’t go to get drunk but I want them to know that I love them enough to come and relax and celebrate Christmas...in THEIR comfort zone.  That’s where people open up to you...in their world. 

    2. I totally agree with one of the earlier posts that we need to engage our children in church life, allow them to serve NOW, they are the church of TODAY!  Ask yourself, where in your church or home or any of your experiences are you “led” by children???  The Bible says that a little child will lead them...do we do that?  Or do we tell them they are too young and they can help when they re older? 

    I will repeat my question of earlier...WHEN IS IT OUR TURN?  Do you (Baby Boomers and older) trust that we hear from God too?  That if you allow us to try something new that the church will not crumble in our perhaps inexperienced yet energetic hands?  Will you guide us through our mistakes and make it a positive growth opportunity?  I have felt thIS way most of my life and even now turning 30 years old with 18 years of ministry experience under my belt...I still ask that question.

    3. THE REASONS THAT I STAYED IN CHURCH despite living through some large scale scandals and what I felt to be a hypocritical home life (no disrespect to my parents with whom God has brought much healing) was because of my own PERSONAL EXPERIENCES with God’s power and the MENTORING of a few brave women.  I was saved at 4 years old, baptized in the Holy Spirit at age 11 (I know many dont believe in that experience but there was no mistaking it for me and it kept me through high school) and baptized in water at age 11 of my own request.  I never ran away or rebelled although many around me chose to.  I just knew God was real becaused I had experienced his power in my life and there wasn’t really any other plausible life to live.

    HOWEVER, I recently had an emotional breakdown where I confided to a friend...I HATE CHURCH.  I have never said that in my life but I am sick to death of church.  I have a passionate romance with my heavenly Father and I am growing in leaps and bounds through reading the Word and prayer and taking leaps of faith...but I am so sick of church and all the religious crap.  I don t intend to offend anyone with that, just being real.  When will we believe and live like we are “free indeed”???  When will we start dying to ourselves, stop complaining and start PRAYING?  When, when, when will we be courageous enough to look outside of the little box that we call “Sunday morning worship” and see that there just might be a world out there that is FUN and exciting and breathtakingly ALIVE???  Please tell me when.

    QUESTIONS: 
    Are we giving our kids opportunities and permission to be filled with the spirit, to praise and worship with exuberance, to pray for and minister to others and use their gifts freely...even if their talent is say...breakdancing? 
    Are we mentoring our kids and others in the church, especially those who don’t have Christian parents?

    Sorry to be so long, I am so passionate on this subject. 
    In conclusion:

    WE NEED MENTORS!  Do not use the excuse that no one mentored you and therefore you don’t know how...GOD WILL TEACH YOU IF YOU ASK HIM!  And we will have grace for your mistakes, I promise.  Just be real and admit you’re not perfect.  It’s not an extra burden, for example, a pastor could start with 12 people (just like Jesus) whom you pour into and include your staff, key leaders and immediate family members in that number.  Outside of Sunday sermons my opinion is that should be a pastor’s ONLY JOB.  Mentoring 12 people so that they in turn can mentor.  If this is done then the church functions and the visitations and the crisis counselling and all the other THINGS that eat up your time will eventually be taken care of ...by the leaders you have taught and the leaders they have taught...etc, etc…

    BALANCE IS THE KEY.  When you have balance there is no room for idols and you are living a life of worship in every area.  When you have balance your kids learn that they are as important as church activities and what true Godly priorities are.

    Selah!

  • Posted by
    Tuesday, August 08, 2006 at 9:26 PM

    Wonderful John Mulholland, perfectly put...and much more succint than mine!
    : )

  • Posted by
    Tuesday, August 08, 2006 at 9:34 PM

    there is a blog worth reading through that deals with this stuff off and on…

    http://www.nameless-yp.com

    interesting thoughts of a bunch of guys who are anonymously in ministry…

  • Posted by
    Tuesday, August 08, 2006 at 10:34 PM

    [Unfortunately too often we refuse to listen to the right people and hide behind systems of theology to defend it.]

    I don’t get it, why such animosity towards the Study of God (i.e. THEOLOGY)?

    Every Christian uses theology; the question is whether the theology is good and glorifies God or is bad and is deceiving with corrupt teachings.

    Perhaps the reason someone hates theology so much is because they want to keep one that isn’t Biblical and hate when somebody reveals an error in it???

    Trusting God for answers and listening to Him in His Word through study and prayer is much more dependable than men; I think based on many of the posts here that if we were depending on the church today for our spiritual growth and help, we would probably be one of the 88%.  It’s only through serious study and prayer that I have grown.  Asking the tough questions:  Seeking a Biblical answer and comparing the many “biblical” answers through scripture.  Being a Biblical Christian takes REAL work… thank God there are some teachers who really care to work through it too.

    I too WAS a prodigal son and what I appreciated most about Wendi’s son is his statement that everything was silly and shallow.  Thank you for sharing Wendi.

    [Honestly, that kind of confession would never happen within the context of Sunday morning, and not because it is inappropriate, but because it is an attitude of humility that we sorely lack as a culture.]

    This is exactly right.

    It’s still “silly and shallow”.

    Adults don’t want to get deep with one another.  Confess and share.

    John hit the nail on adults who share and confess quickly realize there are talebearers (sp) (taking what is said in private in one home and telling it to others in another home) and back biting (either talking bad about people behind their back or causing others to do so) and they quit sharing and confessing.

    I’ve been to outings where the pastor and church leaders are just there to make an appearance and leave as soon as possible.  Never taking time to get to know people and the people getting to know them.

    I’ve seen people start confession only to pipe up when certain people arrive and then seem shamed.

    It speaks volumes about the church.  Our connecting point is THE Truth in Christ through His Word, Character and Nature.

    [We need to be open and authentic, regardless of consequence.  We need to be a lot harder on Christians]

    I totally agree.  Who can we trust to be authentic with?  Who is a faithful Believer who will share the burden and not tale bear and back bite?  Who are the leaders who will share Truth even when everyone in the room disagrees with it?  Who is the Righteous man whose prayers avail much?

    I think once the world sees this authenticity between Believers (loving one another) they will want to be like us being like Christ.

    [WE NEED MENTORS! ]

    This is what I pray for, what I seek.  Someone to mentor.  About 6 months ago God brought me a couple and I’ve learned more and more each time I meet with them.  It’s exciting to see their excitement.  It’s encouraging to witness them grow.  I praise God for them in my life.  My family prays and loves them and they love and pray for us.  It’s exciting.

    Creating leaders takes time.  Takes being personal and there just isn’t allot of that going on.  Church leaders seem more to run from personally knowing people and being known.

  • Posted by
    Tuesday, August 08, 2006 at 10:40 PM

    Hey thanks snoop.  I had been to that site a while back and lost the link.  THANKS!

  • Posted by
    Wednesday, August 09, 2006 at 7:21 AM

    [I don’t get it, why such animosity towards the Study of God (i.e. THEOLOGY)?

    Every Christian uses theology; the question is whether the theology is good and glorifies God or is bad and is deceiving with corrupt teachings.

    Perhaps the reason someone hates theology so much is because they want to keep one that isn’t Biblical and hate when somebody reveals an error in it???

    Trusting God for answers and listening to Him in His Word through study and prayer is much more dependable than men; I think based on many of the posts here that if we were depending on the church today for our spiritual growth and help, we would probably be one of the 88%.  It’s only through serious study and prayer that I have grown.  Asking the tough questions:  Seeking a Biblical answer and comparing the many “biblical” answers through scripture.  Being a Biblical Christian takes REAL work… thank God there are some teachers who really care to work through it too.

    I too WAS a prodigal son and what I appreciated most about Wendi’s son is his statement that everything was silly and shallow.  Thank you for sharing Wendi. ]

    If you were detecting animosity towards theology, that is my bad.  Theology is something that is not studied enough in this day and age.  My point was that theology is often times used as an excuse to not do things.  My experience has had me cross paths with those that use thier theology to keep outsiders out, and insiders in.  That was my point.

    [Hey thanks snoop.  I had been to that site a while back and lost the link.  THANKS!]

    no problem…

  • Posted by
    Wednesday, August 09, 2006 at 8:28 AM

    I too believe that farming out our kids for others to raise, is much of the problem.  Where are kids getting the majority of their influence today?  Their shippid off to day care when there about 6 weeks old where they spend their biggest molding years in the care of strangers.  Then they are molded by our public school system that tells them they come from apes, teach them to rebel against authority and to embrace homosexuality as a good alternative. 

    You don’t send a child into a war zone without being trained, or they will die.  We’ve been given a huge responsibility to raise, train and mold these precions gifts into godly men and women, not sacrifice them at our convenience.

  • Posted by
    Wednesday, August 09, 2006 at 9:19 AM

    I guess my previous post didn’t get through.  Maybe that was God’s way of saying it was supposed to be shared smile

    I’ll simplify.  I’ve become somewhat cynical and jaded when it comes to church.  I was born again in 1994.  I have a great marriage of nearly 17 years w/ a remarkable woman of God.  I have two pre-teen kids, boy & girl.  We’ve raised our kids in the church.  I was DEEPLY involved in all sorts of ministry.  I even felt called into full-time ministry.  Then, God placed me into a interim Children’s Pastor position at our church.  It was one of the great disillusions of my life.  What I witnessed was an organization centered on results and bottom line.  What are the numbers?  What is the budget?  Important info, yes, but it came at the expense of relationships. 

    Pray for me gang.  My faith needs a real revival.  I want to be the spiritual leader God commands for my family.  I just see church in a different light than I used to.  Not one I like.

    Jeff

  • Posted by
    Wednesday, August 09, 2006 at 10:09 AM

    Jeff, I hear and know your pain.

    I sat in a meeting of church leaders at a church I was attending where the pastor was explaining the reason the hs youth pastor was leaving was not because of numbers then not even 2 minutes later he started to explain how they (the eldership or pastors) wanted to see growth in the hs youth group (numbers).

    An exact contradiction in less than 2 minutes revealed the smoke and mirrors - - - deceived and being deceived.

    The ministry is now a business and run like one.  Consultants are hired just like a business.  Steps and measures are taken to improve “bottom-line” results, etc.

    The problem is the bottom line is conversions - as though we manufacture salvation.  New programs invented (innovation) and new ideas promoted to improve the bottom line.

    Parishoners should stand up to such illusions and demand faithful and scriptural leadership.

    The parents absolutely need to be involved in discipling and equipping their children.  The church leadership could be partnering with the parents on how best to equip their children but first must leave the illusions behind.

    May I suggest a great book to read Always Ready by Greg Bahnsen

  • Posted by
    Wednesday, August 09, 2006 at 10:31 AM

    “What I witnessed was an organization centered on results and bottom line.  What are the numbers?  What is the budget?  Important info, yes, but it came at the expense of relationships”. 

    Interesting observation Jeff, I appreciate your thoughts.

    I came out of a church background that was heavily focused on making us all feel comfortable, that it spilled over into the childrens ministry.  It’s discouraging when the “focus” becomes trying to figure out how to make the kids laugh, even at the expense of biblical accuracy. And it probably does become silly and empty to the kids when they start recognizing what is being compromised to get them there in the hopes of them getting connected.  This sometimes is done for the bottom line of numbers as you say.  But I do believe the motives may often indeed be sincere, it just is out of a lack of faith to rely upon God’s way. Instead an imitation of what they get from the World is given to them in the same form with a few Bible references thrown in in hopes of that being enough to change them.

  • Posted by
    Wednesday, August 09, 2006 at 10:58 AM

    “It’s discouraging when the “focus” becomes trying to figure out how to make the kids laugh, even at the expense of biblical accuracy. And it probably does become silly and empty to the kids when they start recognizing what is being compromised to get them there in the hopes of them getting connected.”

    I agree. And I think this same principle could be applied to ministry at all age levels.  Having a theatre degree, I’ve used drama and video production to supplement the teaching.  It’s a great grabber.  And I firmly believe they can be used because we are a media-rich culture.  I was that guy who could make the kids laugh.  I could also make the adults laugh.  I loved it.

    What I started missing was true fellowship.  Everyone was CONSUMED w/ the business of the church.  I do believe everyone was sincere and their hearts were in the right place.  They wanted what was best for the church and all that.  I just craved a deeper sense of relationship w/ everyone.  I don’t know...it’s hard for me to articulate, which is frustrating for me because I’ve always been told I’m a good comminicator!!  I’ll ruminate on it some more and see if I can’t clarify....

    In the meantime, I’m still a pilgrim on my journey....God will get me there.

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