BeHim stated: I don’t get it, why such animosity towards the Study of God (i.e. THEOLOGY)?

BeHim, as sad as it is to consider, I am convinced that the thoughts from scripture that best explain this are the ones that deal with the “anti-Christs” that Paul states were already out there in his day. That the reason the attacks against God’s word, doctrine, theology, etc… are so pervasive and strong is that the deception is equally as pervasive and strong. What is the best antidote to such a situation? Adherence to and reverence for a sound Biblical gospel message and genuine discipleship, and for the first time in as long as I can remember, a pursuit, not of “getting people saved” but of genuinely teaching church goers what it means to be a disciple, to die to self, to equip them to deliver the complete gospel without compromise. Not a furtherance of the “wonderful plan"/God-shaped hole/say a prayer after me” evangelism that is filling the churches in America with an unrepentant majority.
Just my thoughts.

Peter here is the problem of which I speak, aside from a failure/refusal to recognize the 88% statistic is likely due to the issues I’ve mentioned, you said “If it is merely the more progressive, relevant presentation of the Gospel ...” There is a problem with that gospel presentation, it is disempowered by the lack of honor it gives to Almighty God, thus it is not empowered by the Holy Spirit and has no ability to save those who are “won” under it. Read Romans 3:4-8 where Paul talks about unrighteous acts/lies abounding to glory for God - if they do then how would He righteously judge the unrighteous? I like the way the NASB translation has it:
But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.)
May it never be! For otherwise, how will God judge the world?

But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner?

And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), “Let us do evil that good may come”? Their condemnation is just.

The problems mentioned in the article would be less were there are greater adherence to God’s doctrine, to a salvithic gospel message, and less pursuit of a “more relevant” gospel presentation. The God I know and revere is not limited by culture or any other obstacle one might want to purport.I’ll limit my comments to these so as not to get off-topic.

John 3:36,

with this being said, please tell me how you envision the church working, and give me examples as to what a service would look like, how ministries function, etc.  I am also curious to know what evangelism looks like from your perspective…

[Who is to say that God can’t speak to us through any number of instruments.]

God is to say!  He has spoken to us in the prophets and apostles and His Final Revelation is complete - FINISHED (Hebrews 1, Revelation 22).

Today he speaks to us through The Holy Spirit BY His Word; NOT through prophets, burning bushes, apostles and still small voices.

Here’s a question:

The Gospel is presented in the book of Acts 12 times by 7 different people.

Was love mentioned first by any of them?  Why not???

I mean if there was anyone who could qualify Jesus loving ALL sinners no matter what, it would have been the Apostles.  Why didn’t they start with a Jesus Loves you gospel message?

Because the love of God is something imputed when you are declared Righteous.

THE Gospel IS:
Christ died on the cross, was buried and rose again on the 3rd day according to the scriptures.

Any message (no matter how culturally relevent) other than that is commanded to us by Paul to accurse (curse to hell - amathama(sp).

Why did Christ die on the Cross?  Why is it important He was buried?  Why is it important He rose again?  On the 3rd day?  Why does it have to be according to the scriptures.

This is where the new gospels come from… answers to these questions vary and have NOT one mind but many and God does NOT author confusion!  NOR does He deceive or employ deceptive (sales and marketing like) tactics.

[Are you calling those of us who use different language or different methodology to communicate that exact message heretics?]

What does scripture say?
Galations 1:6-10
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.  10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.

Does this new method or different language run the risk of being considered a different gospel?  If so, why risk it?  Considering Paul an Apostle of God warns of being accursed.

Paul when speaking of the Love of God is ALWAYS talking to Believers/Christians (in fact, so are all the other Apostles and Jesus Himself) NOT the world in general or as a whole.

Starting with a Jesus loves you gospel is not what Paul and the Apostles preached/delivered to us.

If you are communicating that “exact message” then you are in line with scripture.

scripture is clear however if you are not communicating that “exact message” then there are consequences.

I do not condemn you snoop, for I like anyone else run the risk of falling too; I only hope you and I and others will adhere STRICTLY to scripture and not the ideas of men and if we’ve done such things we confess them, repent of them and turn away from doing them.

every now and then i think about planting a church, and when i start to envision what i would do, i never have a ministry for high schoolers.  age specific ministries end at 8th grade, and from that point on the church is a multigenerational body committed to worshiping Christ through service together…

but like i said, that is my dream…

What did Jesus do?  He spent time with people.  12 people.  He mentored and loved and confronted and poured and taught them through every little life lesson along the way.  Layne, I think the following is a new idea - I said it earlier but it might have been lost easily since we’re on page 3 now!

What if pastors only preached on Sundays and mentored the rest of the time?  That’s it.  Find up to 12 people and start pouring.  Your family, your staff and your key leaders are all included in this 12.  They in turn must have anywhere from 6-12 people in their lives whom they pour into.  Pretty soon everyone would be functioning in their gifts and moving in unity towards the vision of that church because of all the communication and empowerment that takes place when you actually spend time with people.

Along with this I support the idea of having One Family church body where everyone worships and serves together, the old teaching the young and the young inspiring the old.  This means a lot of people would have to chill out in how the service is run.  So the baby is crying...why doesn’t one of the older “grandmas” give mom a break and take baby for a walk?  So the kids are jumping and running during the music...our God is a playful God and this is their worship.  Have kid-teen-oriented object lessons or songs interjected here and there.  Teach and allow the kids to pray and minister at altar time.  I’m also an advocate of smaller churches (500 or less) and this is where this idea might flourish best.

Having said that, I have to ask - why all this talk about methods???  Here’s my method:

a) Church leadership WAITS ON GOD and prays for the vision for their particular church in their particular community. 
b) They receive it and use their God given gifts and His direction to implement this vision how best they see fit.  That could look like anything or NOTHING that we are now familiar with as “church”.  We just need courage to be obedient if He tells us to do something that has never been done before.

Every church is in a different community with a its own purpose and special design from the Lord to meet the needs and people of that community.  Whatever method you guys come up with here I guarantee you it wouldn’t work for me - because I live in a small Northern city in Canada.  There is something unique here in the DNA of my church body which God is going to use to bless our community and make disciples here.  It wouldn’t work for you.  Why are we so worried about making everyone fit into OUR little method box???

Simply put, our kids aren’t staying in church. 
We can offer more opportunities for them to get involved and have ownership at a younger age. 
We can offer parenting classes and more support for young parents. 
We can mentor. 

I think most of us have agreed that there is an authenticity lacking from what we do now. 
SO LET’S CHANGE IT AND ASK GOD TO SHOW US HOW TO BE REAL.

BeHim writes (quoting snoop I believe) {[Are you calling those of us who use different language or different methodology to communicate that exact message heretics?]}

For me, YES. I think he is.

And I think your use of the Galatians quote is perhaps a bit out of context. Paul is talking to the Galatians about a legalistic “gospel” that has been preached to them, in which our works are capable of saving us. That’s the thrust of his message in Galatians, that we are not saved by observing the law. That’s not the situation here with this discussion.

I hope we’re leaving this one alone now. I’ll see y’all next week, I’m off to the Summit.

[I guess I keep coming back to Jesus loving me first because scripture states that God so loved the world that He sent his only son,...etc.  It seems to me that based on that, the whole reason God sent Christ to die in the first place was becaused He loves us.  I don’t know, maybe I’m reading it wrong.  Even Paul wrote that the greatest of faith, hope, and love is love.  I respectfully submit to you that scriptually speaking, the Gospel exists because God loves us and wants us with Him in heaven.  I didn’t get that from anything other than reading the scripture.]

Great Jeff… who specifically is “us” you keep referring to?

Everyone on the planet or Believers?  Christians.  Those of The Faith.

If you suggest it is the Believer, Christian, those authored if Saving Faith.  I agree.

If you suggest it is everyone on the planet.  I disagree.

While “WE” were yet sinners Christ died for “US”.  Refers to Believers.

The Believer understands the Love of God as being saved from the Wrath of God.

The Gospel begins with the Wrath of God and ends for those who Believe The “Good News” that God has provided Life Abundant through His Love - The Love of God.

To reverse this message and begin with the Love of God is deceiving.  Why?

Because the consequence to sin is no longer eternal damnation but instead, Love.

All I have to do is Believe.  There is a deceptive understanding of the consequence of Sin.  Sin all of a sudden doesn’t cost as much as it did before (as it would if you had to sacrifice an animal that cost you livelihood – culled from your flock or actual money if you had no flock – how much more The Blood of God!!!).

Why do we do this?  Because it’s more palatable to the hearer?  Gets more “conversions” (sales)?  “Easier” to understand?

Whatever the defense, it is still another gospel.

I didn’t say someone here has said this (in this article or these posts) but is it what someone here might teach or believe?

If so, are they teaching/believing in another gospel?  If not, why not?

[What would you suggest that would make a difference in someone’s life?]

In Bible College the older students always led the new students in prayer and Encouraging scriptures and we went street witnessing.  Always teaming a new student (possibly new Believer) with an older student (a person who has been street witnessing for two or more semesters and comfortable with taking the lead in witnessing).  It left such an impression (I did it for 4 semesters) that when I got back home, we did it in the college group I attended before leaving for B.Coll.  Some in the group still talk about “those days”.

Street witnessing with Bible Tracks are a great way to see a “mature” Believer actually defend his Faith.  One thing I always recognized… There were never senior pastors out witnessing - youth, associate - even worship leaders but never the senior pastor (or a person who had been a senior pastor).

You never know who you’re going to meet on the street or what position they are going to choose to defend.  It’s a great practice to add to the mentoring stage.  Actually using what you’ve been teaching and been taught.

I’ve witnessed some conversions but mostly just Believers letting people know they are Believers and willing to talk about it.

Another thing I’m in the process of proposing is a “Socrates Cafe” idea I read about.  Where basically we get together and discuss Biblical issues - much like we do here on the blog but in person, with scripture and defending with one another what we Believe and why.  What would be cool is getting this group to go street witnessing at some point.

BeHim:

why do you take part in street witnessing?

Snoop

Do you know for absolute sure your presuppositions are founded in scripture (their starting points)?

If yes:  How do you know for absolute sure?  Have or do you test them?  How do you test them?

If not:  Why don’t you?

I think you missed the point of my question, probably because I wasn’t being specific enough.  It just seemed to me from an earlier post of yours that the purpose of your street witnessing was to allow believers to show confidence in their faith…

you can get into the calvinist arguement if you want, that is neither my intention or desire and i refuse to debate that with you or anyone… I am just wondering the why behind what you were doing…

as to your follow up post.  what presuppositions are you asking me about?

John 3:36

Here’s one example . . . Jesus shows up when a woman has been caught in adultery (which means some man was also committing adultery or sexual sin - BTW), and Jesus rescues her from certain death before he says one single word about sin.  Then, the first word He does say is not to the woman, but to all the sinners (male sinners BTW) who have stones in their hands.

He doesn’t ask the woman to consider her sin until He has unequivocally demonstrated love (love, love, love) to her.

Wendi