I’ll never forget the time we had a Sunday morning service and a lady who is the niece of someone who knew someone who was a charter member… you get the idea, had a “music ministry,” and I use this term very lightly, came to minister to us.

Question… Have you ever been embarrassed for someone else? That’s how we all felt.  At the end of the service we took up a love offering.  It seems there was more love than offering.  She was upset and from then on we agreed to have people send a demo before they could be our guest.

I think it’s important to interpret scripture correctly.  “Make a joyful noise unto the Lord...” not a noise joyfully. Here’s a good rule that I live by.  If God gives you a ministry He will most likely give you, in the words of Napoleon Dynomite, the special skills required.

Good times.

Mooneyhan, out!

“It’s handled in a very polite and professional manner,”

This is unbelievable.

The “talent means everything” mantra is what has helped lead the Western Church to become as irrelevant as it has become.

Thank God that He doesn’t operate in a “professional manner” toward those who simply want to honor Him, regardless of their lack of “talent.”

Greetings,

You know, I’ve been in services where situations like these were taking place.  The crowd is worshipping and their minds are concentrating on God.  Then someone is going to sing a special.  Next thing you know, after the song the preacher has trouble preaching and the crowd has trouble focusing on God simply because someone was singing that probably should have been singing.

On the other hand, I’ve seen people that couldn’t carry a tune in a bucket stand up and sing and God would move like never before.

God is a sovereign God and He moves in mysterious ways.  He uses the foolish things to confound the wise.  We definitely want someone leading worship that has the gift and the talent to sing, but if its in order and God ordains it, someone that cannot sing can be just as moving.  We are open books though, and if you’re prayed up you’ll be able to discern whether someone is worshipping or just singing a song.  And if the leadership of the church prays before each service, God will ordain the things that should take place.

God bless

Man Todd,

I clicked on the “Remember this guy” and I was rolling.  I needed that laugh.  The rest of those were the most boring clips ever.  Oh the things people do.  I’m telling you, man, God sure has a sense of humor.

dg

Peter said:

“Ever had somebody come up to you and say that they know that they are called by God to lead worship, up front… on the mic? And they were totally tone-deaf? How can the people of God worship Him with reverence and awe if the ones leading are pathetic? I’ve been in churches where this happened, and BOY, was it distracting from worship, no matter how hard you tried for it not to be...”

Yes, Peter, I have had much of what you asked happened to me and in services that I attended and, to be frank, was horrified when “my worship experience” was “ruined” by someone who sang off tune.

But later, as I began to study the New Testament Church of the Book of Acts and Paul’s writings regarding the Church, I had to repent of many (and still am repenting) of MY presumptions as to how the New Testament church gathering is to operate according to Scripture.

In the Early Church EVERYONE, as Paul states, had “a psalm, a hymn a spiritual song” and were ENCOURAGED to express them for the edification of the Church.  And what a job of edifying those talentless first century believers did for the Church.

However, in our program-based machine that we wrongly call “church” today, more emphasis is placed on an Epicurean philosophy of what pleases “me,” most often at the expense of the whole.  Therefore, when someone whose talent may not necessarily match the size of their heart for God attempts to express their heart, as is encouraged in Scripture, it is WE who are offended whereas God, the alleged target of our “worship” (I believe most of us really don’t know what the biblical definition of worship is), is offended by our discouraging actions.

Finally, the professionalism of so-called “worship” has lead to a deep pride in many, if not most, fellowships which has bred political ramifications that eventually do NOTHING to represent the Church of Jesus Christ. 

So my question, Peter, is: Can you definitively say that while you and others may been offended or have had your “worship experiences” detracted from by talentless singers, that God has not been honored by the selfless attempts to please Him by those who repulse you?

Ricky,

We’re talking about apples and oranges.

Those gatherings of believers in homes where everyone had a unique thing to offer still happen. In most churches it’s called home groups or small groups or community groups.

But… Our PUBLIC worship services are closer in scale, purpose, and even in a sense style to the public worship services of the OLD Testament, where everything was done with excellence. The New Testament gives no instructions for PUBLIC worship, I believe, befcause there WERE no public Christian services yet. The craftsmanship that is described in the building of the temple in Chronicles, for instance. The musicians are also described as those who are excellent and, it would seem, professional. 1 Kings 10:12, 1 Chronicles 6, all mention musicians who seem to be professionals, in fact 1 Chronicles 9:33 indicates that they were exempt from other duties. I’ll bet you had to be a pretty good singer or player to be a member of THAT group.

Also, Ricky, you ask [Where, Peter, are the New Testament verses that establish the practice of a small group of talented professionals “leading” others in “worship?"] Well, where does it tell us to have a parking ministry? But if we have over a thousand people coming… we better have one. The New Testament does not seem to have clear indications of how we should do a LOT of things in public worship. That doesn’t automatically make decisions we make about how to do them wrong, does it?

We’re straining at gnats again here…

Peter:

“Those gatherings of believers in homes where everyone had a unique thing to offer still happen. In most churches it’s called home groups or small groups or community groups.”

No, they don’t...at least not if they’re controlled by an organization.  The small groups become nothing more than an extension of the organization and is highly influenced by the edicts of the senior pastor.

You’re right about one thing, we ARE comparing two very different things...The New Testament Church with the institutionalized “church.”

Peter:

“But… Our PUBLIC worship services are closer in scale, purpose, and even in a sense style to the public worship services of the OLD Testament, where everything was done with excellence.”

And only a select few ministered.  Peter, I don’t know if you realize this but the modern-day practice of “worship” is just that MODERN-DAY (actually started hundreds of years after the apostles died and was greatly influenced by pagan Greek/Roman order [i.e., Constatine] and is still embraced by the Catholic Church) and which has no basis in the New Testament, the birthplace of the Church.

In the New Testament, ministry is not accomplished by a select but the entire ELECT, which includes believers of all persuasions and gifts.  I think it’s time you come into the New Testament and leave the dead heirarchical structures of the Old Testament.  God has.

Peter:

“The New Testament gives no instructions for PUBLIC worship, I believe, because there WERE no public Christian services yet.”

Exactly!  Now why do you think we have biblical precedent to have started them? 

Peter, I encourage you to do a study regarding where we get our modern-day practices of “church.” Any honest study would uncover the fact that virtually EVERY practice that we hold so dear in our “services” has little to no biblical merit but rather was born of pagan rites that were adopted by believers (and still adopting).

Peter:

“The craftsmanship that is described in the building of the temple in Chronicles, for instance. The musicians are also described as those who are excellent and, it would seem, professional. 1 Kings 10:12, 1 Chronicles 6, all mention musicians who seem to be professionals, in fact 1 Chronicles 9:33 indicates that they were exempt from other duties. I’ll bet you had to be a pretty good singer or player to be a member of THAT group.”

Peter, dude, do you realize what you’re saying?  Are you a pastor?  If so, I’m stunned as to what you’re saying, especially seeing that the Old Testament temple was a type of the believer which God was to indwell with His Spirit on the Day of Pentecost.  God said Himself that not even earth can contain the glory of God, much less a building made with the hands of man.  Don’t you see that WE are the TEMPLES of God NOW?

Man, leave the old, dead Judaic system of worship behind and come into the New Testament.

Peter:

“Also, Ricky, you ask [Where, Peter, are the New Testament verses that establish the practice of a small group of talented professionals “leading” others in “worship?"] Well, where does it tell us to have a parking ministry? But if we have over a thousand people coming… we better have one. The New Testament does not seem to have clear indications of how we should do a LOT of things in public worship. That doesn’t automatically make decisions we make about how to do them wrong, does it?”

Again, you’re trapped in the modern-day thought of what has become known as “church” and yet bears NO resemblance to the New Testament Church.

And, by the way, the New Testament says much about the Church and how the gathering is to be conducted...with everyone having the opportunity to express their uniqueness before God and in order to edify the assembly. 

Remember Paul’s words, “everyone has a psalm and hymn a teaching?” Unfortunately, today’s “services” have been hijacked by people who think they know it all regarding how “worship” (a loosley used term) is to be conducted.  Believe me, it’s no where near the New Testament.

Peter:

“We’re straining at gnats again here...”

The only ones, according to Jesus, who strained gnats were the Pharisees who were rabid in defending the inventions of their own minds (i.e., the synagogue system was NOT ordained by God), the “professional clergy” of their time.

Peter, I’m not the one defending the modern-day invention of man called “church,” it is you. 

So who is straining the gnats, brother?

Aw come on… there are two camps here… those who have actually been in charge leading worship in the local church and those who haven’t.

I think my approach is pretty balanced:

Can God use someone with absolutely no musical talent?  Of course He can.

Does God look at the heart rather than listen to the voice?  Of course He does.

But we, as humans, do not.

You see, friends, there is a difference in the attitude of the heart and talent; and God is not the only one who has to discern this.  If you’ve ever been priveleged to lead a worship program, you know what I mean.

Quite honestly, it works both ways… in my days as worship leader I had to deal with both situations:  extremely talented people (who knew it) and who had the ego and drive that were as far away from God as possible.  Also, there was another group of people who had not one lick of talent; but thought they did; and wanted to use it, not to glorify God, but self.  If is the worship leader’s job to, with God’s help, decipher talent, motives, and desires in order to help draw others into worship corporately.

And that means, many times, that you pass over the move highly talented in order to choose those with a heart of worship.  It also means that some untalented people do not participate for the same reason.  It is rare, but sometimes people are better steered into other ministries rather than singing special music.  It’s always a tough subject to broach, but if their heart is really for Jesus, they’ll want to serve Him in the best way possible.  Usually, those people, put down their own pride and desire and do so.  For those who don’t… we’re back to the heart issue.

And Ricky… sorry… but only you could turn this into an negative anti- ‘modern-day invention of man called church’ issue.

Todd

Ricky writes

“The only ones, according to Jesus, who strained gnats were the Pharisees who were rabid in defending the inventions of their own minds (i.e., the synagogue system was NOT ordained by God), the “professional clergy” of their time.”

You know, I stand by my figure of speech. You managed to deconstruct my words so efficently. Ricky, I think you are, with all due respect, reading this whole issue through the lens of your own agenda. I feel my words were mis-read, but I’m confident there’s nothing I can do to change that.

One last thought… In my rather extensive experience as a worship leader, I have rarely run across someone who had little or no talent that wanted to sing special music who had the right motives in the first place.

Thanks for your post, Todd… I agree wholeheartedly.

Now… on to THIS week’s discussions.

Todd,

No problem with your balanced approach.  However, you might want to consider speaking for yourself rather than projecting on the rest of us.

You said, “Does God look at the heart rather than listen to the voice? Of course He does.

But we, as humans, do not.”

That is exactly the core of the whole issue!  You acknowledge that you as a human do not look at the heart rather than listen to the voice.  If that is your choice, so be it.  However, whether you know it or not there is a myriad of Christians in this world who are true worshippers in spirit and truth and are not impressed with talent enough to be distracted from their focus on the Lord by listening to the voice of the worship leader.

These people (self-included), do look on the heart and not listen to the voice.

BTW, prior to becoming a senior pastor I spent many years as a musician and worship leader, so I am not ignorant of the “rub” it creates in a professional’s mind, emotions and spirit to have to deal with untalented and unskilled members on a worship team.

Guess what...that same rub hits the gut of a true pastor who has to contend with a professional staff and greatly talented people who lack the spiritual discernment to recognize that music is not even essential to worship let alone it’s main ingredient; and as a result teach the Body of Christ that Worship is for them!

Ricky says [you would see that you’ve been promulgating a paganistic ritual that is more in line with the Greeks/Romans than it is with the bible.]

a bit much, Ricky… really… i think your rhetoric might get in the way of your point here.

Out,
Peter

It is so cool that we can interact with issues and find many we are in complete agreement with while still having considerable distance between our understandings on other! There are many forums where this is not possible.

Thank you Todd, that yours is this way.

As often is the case, I owe another apology here because I did stray from the content of the post. It has been so many years since I left the spiritual nursery room of my Christian youth that I completely forgot about this thing called “SPECIAL MUSIC”!

By missing that critical part of the post I assumed we were discussing the need for skill and talent musically to be an effective worship leader.

Todd & Peter,

Please accept my apology, as my comments here were coming exclusively from that assumption.

Concerning “Specials”, Unless we all want Southwest Airlines to use the Church to produce one of their “Ever Wanna Get Away” ads, by all means...save yourself and the rest of us from the torture!  If you don’t have genuine talent and skill...STAY IN YOUr SEAT!