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Andy Stanley:  Why I Decided to Cheat the Church

Orginally published on Monday, August 14, 2006 at 8:48 AM
by Todd Rhoades

One of the better sessions at this year's Leadership Summit was Andy Stanley talking about how he decided to 'cheat the church'. And talked about the number one leadership decision he ever made, and it has to do with the balancing act between the demands of ministry life and the demands on family time...

Tony Morgan and Mark Waltz from Granger Community Church have given great blog summaries of Andy’s talk on their respective blogs.  Tony writes:

He talked about the best leadership decision he’s ever made. He made a deal with God. He explained it something like this:

God, I don’t have time to build a ministry and take care of my family. I’ll give you 45 hours per week as a church planter. If you can build a church on 45 hours, I’m your guy. I’ll let you build has big a church as you can with that 45 hours, and I’ll be satisfied with that. But I’m not going to cheat my family.

Andy decided to cheat the church before he cheated his family. With his wife, he decided to be at home by 4:30 every day. That meant he left work at 4:00.

Andy explained that God has never commanded him to love the Church. He was commanded to love his wife. He was never commanded to build the Church. Jesus said he would do that. Instead, we get it backwards. We try to go build the church, and we pray that God will take care of our family.

How did this decision impact Andy’s leadership?

1. It forced him to play exclusively to play to his strengths. Focus on the things you’re good at. The less you do, the more you accomplish. You’re not very good at very many things. Only do what only you can do.

2. It forced him to prioritize the success of the church over my personal success. He had to say no to lots of other opportunities. It forced him to focus on the main thing God has called him to do. North Point has his undivided attention.

3. The value has forced the organization to say no to many things and maintain a sustainable pace. That protects Andy’s time, but it also obviously also protects his staff’s time. We need to create a “to don’t” list. The value led to a decision to shut down the church the final weekend of every year to give all the volunteers and staff members a weekend to be with their families.

4. This value elicits incredible loyalty from the staff. Andy tells all new employees not to cheat their families.

This is a hard decision. People will be angry. We can’t fall into the “If I don’t, it won’t get done” trap. How many hours you work won’t make or break your career.

Charles Stanley said, “Never violate the principles of God in order to gain or maintain the blessing of God.”

Jesus has promised to build his church, and he’s done a great job. We’re just a small part of it.

Mark Waltz wrote:

Perhaps the word “cheat” seems harsh and uncomfortable, but I think Andy’s right. Because these two worlds call on me, pull on me, lean on me… there is a sense of “competition”, one against the other. In that light, then, someone’s going to get cheated. My sense of loyalty can’t be equal to both. Someone’s going to get less of me.

Although Laura and I (I’m married to her) have worked hard at this over the years, I still feel the fear Andy identified today: If I don’t do it… it won’t get done.

How arrogant of me. How self-serving of me. Who said it has to be done?

Of course when fear raises the question and the question presses hard, guilt can quickly follow.

I’m renewing my cheat list. My family - my wife, Laura, and our daughter, Olivia, will win.

God does command it. Jesus models it.

Ministry will get done… and better because I’ll need to keep handing off and building great leadership partnerships that honor God and value our families.

And all the while, people who matter to God will come to know him, ‘cause it’s his gig, his Church, his kingdom.

So… how are you doing in this tug of war between ministry and family?  It mattered so much, and made such a difference in Andy Stanley’s life that he says this is the #1 leadership decision he’s ever made.  How’s your balance?  Do you need to decide to ‘cheat the church’?  It’s a constant struggle, and one that we each need to think about and re-visit on a regular basis.

So… who are you cheating!?

Blessings,

Todd

FOR DISCUSSION: What things have you done to make family time a priority (or to make more time for family time)?  What’s the #1 leadership decision you’ve ever made?


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  There are 61 Comments:

  • Posted by
    Monday, August 14, 2006 at 5:41 PM

    If you havea to choose between cutting back ministry and keeping a pastor sane or keeping ministry and watching the pastor fry, I’d go with cutting back on ministry and keeping the pastor healthy and sane.  It may involve less ministry, but as long as the pastor is wiling to do everything, the volunteers (members of the body of Christ) will probably not fight him for the opportunity to serve the body.  The response I get most from people that I have equipped and set free to minister is, “I just can’t believe that you are really going to let me do this level of significant ministry!” They appreciate being trusted with something meaningful to do.  They appreciate support and they appreciate getting good feedback.  As ministers, let’s equip the people to do the ministry - otherwise, you will need to do it all yourself!!

    Dave

  • Posted by
    Monday, August 14, 2006 at 6:50 PM

    Hey Folks,

    One of the recurring themes in the argument here is the idea of how much time we should work versus the average Joe in the congregation.  The question that I had to ask myself at one church where I worked was this; Who is working the unGodly amount?  A number of people have referred to members of their cogregation who put in 65 and 70 hour work weeks.  Is the logic that becasue they work too much, I must as well?  I honestly feel that we need to set the example for our congregation in this area. At one church where I worked I was told that I was expected to be out 4 or 5 nights a week, bascially widowing my wife and leaving the raising of our then one (and now two) sons to her.  When I told my boss that theis was unrealistic, his response was that ministry is sacrifice.  I agreed with him,but God chooses what He wants me to sacrifice, not any one else.
    Be Brave…

  • Posted by
    Monday, August 14, 2006 at 9:18 PM

    The one thing I haven’t read in all these comments so far is anyone attempting to draw a line between working and not working. Honestly, I never really feel like I’m off of work except for Mondays. If I’m at home and “done” with work for the day, that doesn’t stop anyone from calling me with a need. At the end of the week can any pastor really add all that up and say, I worked—hours? How long were you on the phone or were you at the computer at 10 pm touching up a sermon? Are you still “on the clock”? I don’t really have an answer for this but I know one thing that really improved my marriage was deciding that I would only be gone from the house 3 nights a week max doing ministry. Are there nights when someone calls and I’m on the phone for an hour? Yes. Are there times I have to rush over to the hospital. Yes. Does this cause a problem at home. No. Because we’ve made that 3 night a week commitment and this allows room for the occasional emergency.
    If anyone knows of a way to draw a line between a pastor being on and off other than when on vacation I’d like to hear it. I gave up even keeping track of the exact number of hours I worked because there were certain things I thought “counted” and others that didn’t. And then I started seminary. That was difficult as well. My gauge now is, “did I accomplish what I needed to accomplish this week?” And “did my family get the time they needed from me?” If I can say yes to these questions, I can be satisfied. Usually.

  • Posted by
    Monday, August 14, 2006 at 10:28 PM

    I was not at the summit, but I heard several people who did attend say the whole experience was powerful and nearly overwhelming.  One thing I’ve not seen addressed in my quick glance through the comments is our motivation.  I think sometimes we can be lured into ministry workaholism because we enjoy the admiration our efforts elicit AND because in many respects, ministry IS easier that the consistent demands of pouring ourselves heart and soul into our families.  That is the hard work of obedience. . .

  • Posted by
    Tuesday, August 15, 2006 at 6:28 AM

    The idea that you should guage how many hours you work a week by what the “average” guy in your congregation works is, I think, putting the cart before the horse.

    Perhaps, if he sees you working 70 hours a week, he’ll think to himself, “Well, of COURSE it must be godly to work too many hours… The pastor does it...”

    We should lead and not follow in this area. I’m thankful that I work in an environment where if any of my fellow pastors sees me working too many hours, he WILL challenge me on it! (And I’ll do it to them.,)

  • Posted by
    Tuesday, August 15, 2006 at 7:50 AM

    Interesting reading comments! Ministry has tensions—they can be healthy tensions to keep us in balance. We can push the pendulum too far in either direction in regards to family or ministry. I don’t know that we can ever think we “have it right.” My wife and I have just recently launched young adult daughters, and they still wish to spend time with us! It certainly is important to invest time with family (wife and children), not merely so that we aren’t disqualified from ministry (1 Tim. 3), but to enjoy the privilege of raising a family for God. But I have heard some pastors say that they are not going to spend more than 40 hours a week in ministry so that they don’t “lose their families.” Where did the 40 hour work week come from? Genesis speaks of working 6 days and resting on the seventh. Again, I am not saying that pushing the pendulum the other direction is the answer either. But I think we have really “westernized” this whole thing of work.

    Statements like “family comes before ministry”—where does that come from? What is the Biblical basis for that? Jesus did make the statement that ministry and serving God does involve (I want to say “at times) leaving behind ("hating") “father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters. It seems to me that rather than being a hierarchy in regards to responsibilities, it is more “pie shaped” responsibilities. Sometimes life calls for ministry to the family first, other times it calls for ministry to the church (or job - providing for one’s family, properly serving the employer - Biblical basis for this from Ephesians 6). I have heard some argue that since family (Genesis) came before the church (Acts) then family has priority. Actually, work came before family in creation order! (But I am NOT saying that one ought to neglect family for work, just saying that argument is invalid).

    One of the job requirements of ministry is being on call 24/7. One of the blessings of ministry is greater flexibility of scheduling. I have been able to make many of the events that our girls were involved in (sports and music), but that necessitated being in the officer earlier in order to make an afternoon game, and/or bringing work home that I could do while they were working on homework. I need to continue to maintain that investment of time with my wife now that our girls are launched. I don’t know that I will ever feel that I got it exactly right, but our girls and my wife do not resent my ministry involvement, and the church I serve feels that I “work hard and preaching and teaching” (1 Tim. 5:17). But what concerns me most, is the Lord pleased with the way that I am investing my life?

    I average approximately 50 hours a week (being able to flex schedule lunch with my wife and previously time with children). I expect full-time paid staff to be around 45 to 46 hours a week (as mentioned above that is what folks in the “real world” (smile) are expected to do. If an individual is running consistently 70-80 hours a week that is too much. My admiration and empathy for those who are bivocational in their calling! [my 2 cents worth]

  • Posted by
    Tuesday, August 15, 2006 at 8:46 AM

    Guest,

    Sounds like you have found some balance… Your example is, I think, a good one. 50 hours sounds okay. (I’m asked to work 48, which our church figures is equal to a 40-hour work week plus 8 hours of “ministry” involvement—which is what we expect of our members who are Christ-followers...)

    One of your statements was very telling in terms of where our “work life” in this western culture is headed.  “I expect full-time paid staff to be around 45 to 46 hours a week ...” Wow, just 20 or so years ago, a work week was considered 40 hours. Now it’s 45 (some say 50 or more!). I wonder two things. Should we start, as pastors, to model a more workable work-week so that this trend doesn’t spiral into the future. People work more hours AND spend more time in traffic getting to work than their fathers did (I must admit, my commute is only 8 minutes… but it used to be an hour each way so I feel y’alls pain out there in Chicago and LA and NY and DC...) and at this rate our sons will be working 50 hours a week and spending another 10 or so getting there and back. When does this madness stop?!?!? By 2050, nobody will be married anymore because they won’t have time!

    Just a thought… I hope you post a story on the Cordeiro talk, too, Todd… I sense a theme here…

  • Posted by
    Tuesday, August 15, 2006 at 9:13 AM

    I am a Church Ministry Assistant, and the only other full-time staff member besides our Pastor.  It does fall on our shoulders to get a lot of the Ministry work done, whether by us personally, or by finding volunteers.  I feel that every paid staff member is also a church member, and so by being a church member, they are to give God a portion of their time as a non-paid volunteer.  Sometimes the lines blur between paid and volunteer.  Our Ministry, as paid or volunteer staff, should be to accomplish what God has called us to do.  Sometimes, it is easier to just do it yourself, than find someone else to do a ministry project, but you end up robbing someone else of the joy of serving, and being worn out yourself.  The bottom line is for all staff and volunteers to pray diligently about being a part of a ministry project before saying “yes” or “no”.  When it is a ministry that God has called me to do, serving is a joy, and I feel my family will be taken care of.  Often burn-out comes from just saying “yes” when asked, without praying about it first.  Just because it is a good ministry idea, does not mean that God wants me to do it! 

    As for church staff getting a day off from work after a big ministry project, a lot of people don’t know just how much extra church staff do in preparation for the actual event, as well as being there when the event is taking place.  The Pastor I work for is always cognizant of the extra work his staff does, and wants to make sure that we are not burned out.  I so appreciate the recognition of my extra work, and being afforded a little time off to rest, or be with family.  It keeps me energized, and ready to serve.

  • Posted by
    Tuesday, August 15, 2006 at 9:23 AM

    Peter...was curious where you came up with your research on how “20 years ago the work week was considered 40 hours”.

    I have worked blue collar as well as white. Which as pastors, we are definitely in the later category. Let’s take a factory for instance: if you work on the line, 40 hours is still the basic work week - reason? Because it is the law, and those workers are time clock. Over 40 means overtime. However, management in the factory? They work 45-50 hours.

    My point, when you are in management - which, as “equippers of the saints” that is exactly what we are “in”, it takes more time to manage people.

    Go ask someone who is a teacher how many hours they put in each week during the school year. Sure, they have the summers off, but during the school year - can easily be 50+ hours once all the extra curriculars are factored in.

    It’s just not a simple thing to figure out. I think we are being way too simplistic to say we should be trying to shoot for a 40-45 hour work week, when, as one person has already said, there are weeks when the ministry will demand more, and there are weeks when it will demand much less. It’s during those “slow” times, that our priorities become clear. Do we take advantage of the down time to spend it with family? Or do we continue to work?

    We could talk about firemen, soldiers, farmers...have you ever considered their schedules? I think that as pastors, we have it easy. Yes, we are on call, but, are schedules are so flexible…

    I just get tired of the belly aching… Jesus could return today! Let’s keep our hand to the plow!!

  • Posted by Dave
    Tuesday, August 15, 2006 at 11:00 AM

    I find it fascinating that so many people loved Andy Stanley’s message at the Summit.  I liked it the least of any of the messages there.  Two reasons:

    1) I thought it highly de-motivational – devaluing – to the volunteers I took.  In addition to paid staff, I took 30 volunteers.  Many of them work 40+ hours each week at their jobs.  By the time they come on Sunday morning, they’ve put in their 45.  So in other words, no small groups, no volunteer ministry.  Seems pretty hypocritical to me to ask them to volunteer time if pastors are not going to.  2) I think it was unbiblical.  Andy used Ephesians 5:25 “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church” to conclude that it’s our job to love our families, it’s Jesus job to love the church.  That is clearly not the intention of that text.  We need to love the church and our families.  Passages such as Matthew 6:33 make it clear we are to “seek first God’s Kingdom.” There were things I loved about Andy’s message.  Concepts such as 1) playing to our strengths, 2) maintaining a sustainable pace, 3) pastor’s being sure they don’t get wrapped up in a messiah complex … were incredible.  But the de-valuing of volunteerism bothered me so much that I wished I had not taken my people to the Summit this year.  Except Cordeiro’s message changed all of that.  I loved it.  He recognizes there is a tension between loving our families and seeking first God’s kingdom.  Simplifying it to “45 hours” is not the answer.  Bono was right, Christians have to stop giving simple answers to complex issues.  Cordeiro’s example of “moving the fulcrum” was invaluable.  I don’t question the importance of what Andy talked about.  Many of us have used church work as the place to get our strokes.  Many of us have worked so hard at church that we have brought no emotional energy back home with us. That’s wrong.  I understand this stuff from personal experience.  My grandfather left two of his children in an orphanage in Hawaii for two years so that he could be a missionary to China.  The scars from that decision still affect our families.  I’ve listened to lots of Andy Stanley messages and read lots of his books, including Choosing to Cheat.  I generally love what he has to say.  I left the Summit thinking, “this isn’t something Bill Hybels agrees with.” More importantly, I don’t think Paul or Jesus agree with it either.

  • Posted by
    Tuesday, August 15, 2006 at 11:09 AM

    Anyone who thinks that Andy does not value volunteerism should check out how his church uses volunteers first before making that kind of a statement.  Devaluing volunteerism?  Volunteers need to wrestle with this same concept as they need to be certain that their service at the church does not take time away from serving and developing the spiritual strengths of their own families.  Many of my male volunteers and not a few of the women work 60-70 hours a week and I am constantly checking with them on how their well-ordered life is working out.  I can’t afford for them to burn out on me, nor can I handle the collapse of a family in my ministry.  Furthermore, I will give an account to God for the condition of the sheep in my flock.  That motivates me to make sure that I value the person more than the labor.  Their health matters because they matter, not just so I can keep them on the assembly line of ministry.  Noone is arguing for short-changing the church, but anyone who is struggling with that does not live in the same world that I move through each day.

  • Posted by
    Tuesday, August 15, 2006 at 11:18 AM

    Speaking as someone who worked 50-70 hours regularly for quite a few years, I want to say something that might be a bit controversial here.

    If your job REQUIRES you to put in over 60 hours every week… consider carefully that perhaps you need either a new job or a new understanding of how many hours you can work. If that’s a five day week, that’s 12 or more hours per day. That’s 9am - 9pm. If you work 6 days, that’s still 10 or more hours per day, 9am - 7pm. You can’t have a life that way. I know, I tried…

    If you’re in a season of life where you’re working that many hours, perhaps that’s different, but even then, I would tell anyone that goes to my church who is working those kinds of hours to be too involved in church activities as long as that situation persists.

    It’s what I meant with my comments. Here’s an interesting article… http://www.homepages.indiana.edu/040904/text/workweek.shtml

    When does it stop? The average American’s time away from family is skyrocketing. Our kids are raised in day-care. We are missing all their soccer games and recitals. As leaders, we need to model responsible balance in this area. We owe it to our congregations, our families, ourselves, and our God. The computer was supposed to make our lives easier. It has, apparently, made them harder.

  • Posted by
    Tuesday, August 15, 2006 at 11:31 AM

    One day I was talking with a man who owned a national consulting firm.  As we began to talk about his life I asked him, “If you could tell a pastor the ONE thing he could do that would be of greatest value to you, what would it be?”

    He replied, “Live a sane life!  My life is insane.  I work way too many hours every week.  I’m away from my family too often and too much.  I’d like my pastor to model sanity—a life that honors God and doesn’t deep six his family.  I’d like to have an example to follow.  But the truth is I haven’t met too many pastors whose lives are balanced.”

    I’ll never forget his request.  It was sobering!  And yet, ... yet, I didn’t do a good job of modeling what he asked for and needed. 

    I do know when I give my family time, my ministry doesn’t suffer.  But when I neglect my family, my ministry suffers.  Just a confessional thought or two....

  • Posted by
    Tuesday, August 15, 2006 at 12:54 PM

    I didn’t hear Andy Stanley in-person. And I’m personally? I’m thankful for that. Last Thursday I had to cancel an out-of-town trip I was planning to attend a training event to be held today thru Friday. Again, I’m thankful. Two of our three sons started school today. Had I gone to either of these events, I would not have been here this morning to take the boys to school or to pick them up and ask that old question, “How was your day?” I would not be here to go with our oldest son to orientation this afternoon for a new school he is starting next week. And so-on........

    What happened last Thursday? I realized that while I had every detail planned out for my hubby and all the other people who had volunteered to help our family, I just couldn’t after my mom had surgery. That broke the camel’s back so-to-speak. I was miserable until I picked up that phone and canceled. Miserable. Shame on me for not figuring out why before then.

    On Friday as I shared with the Board of Directors that I would not be attending, they all shared with me that they would be disappointed in me if I had. Wow if that’s not humbling.

  • Posted by
    Tuesday, August 15, 2006 at 4:39 PM

    Brian,
    You have “slow” weeks????!!!!!  How do you manage that??

  • Posted by
    Tuesday, August 15, 2006 at 9:40 PM

    There is a truth to this concept as well as an error. Obviously as we work to equip the saints we do them and God a disservice by doing it all for them. If we neglect our family responsibilities we do our family and God a disservice. It would seem to me “ that there is a time for every purpose under heaven”. Of course we need to love our wives as Christ loves the church., but the bible also calls upon us to give up things for the cause of the gospel. Things like houses, and money, and family. The real issue is as always to truly be directed by God in the decisions that we make, in the way we spend our time. If it is the direction of God to give the time, He will make up the shortfall. If it isn’t the leading of God we are probably wasting our time anyway.We need to examine our motive and check our self-righteousness at the door.

  • Posted by Garrick D. Conner
    Thursday, August 17, 2006 at 1:26 AM

    First of all, let me say that I did not have the opportunity to attend the conference.  I’m bummed about that.  However, I have read some of Andy’s stuff, and I rather agree with his position on this.  I too interpret his 45-hour rule as the sum-total, services included.  There are so many things that vie for our time in ministry. Many members act as if they are your own personal boss, since they write checks to the church periodically.  I learned early on to set boundaries on my time in the office. We know that more is caught than taught, and if we expect our people to live healthy lives with balance, then they absolutely MUST see that modeled by their staff members.  I keep my wife and kids’ names on my calendar.  It’s amazing how flexible people can become when you simply explain that you have another appointment at that time. 

    Secondly, in response to Nancy, please don’t take this the wrong way… I have single friends who have a tendency to pour themselves into their work, to the tune of 70+ hours per week.  That is simply not healthy, in my opinion.  I realize that singles have different lifestyles and different considerations, but so much of it is still the same.  You are a healthier person when you take time out for yourself.  Take that walk.  Join a friend for a movie.  Enjoy a day on a country road trip.  Whatever you do, don’t cheat yourself because the quality of everything you do will be much higher if you are refreshed and balanced.  (Can you tell I’m also a counselor?)

    Last, let me just say that John Steinbeck was right on target: the best laid plans of mice and men oft go astray.  Even when we go the extra mile to protect our personal and family time, this thing called LIFE happens along the way.  Some weeks I probably do put in close to 60 hours.  And while I try hard to not cheat my family with my time, I inevitably end up cheating them with my energy level, as another pointed out.  Our goal should not be to make the 45-hour thing another legalistic target.  Rather, our goal should be to go to great lengths to stay focused on showing the people you love most, your family, the love of Christ.  You see, they really don’t care how much you tell other people about Him if you’re not living it at home.

  • Posted by
    Thursday, August 17, 2006 at 4:59 AM

    Since I wasn’t at the conference, I am reading all of this with great interest and curiosity…

    Here’s my comment/questions for everyone today. Although I know it sounds awful to think that our families might have to make a sacrifice for the ministry...how do I personally sacrifice myself to Jesus, including my schedule, by making these types of decisions to cheat.

    When I think of the soldier in Iraq, if I ever heard him say, “well, i don’t want to cheat my family back home, so therefore, this tour of duty is done” or “I’m not going to put myself in harms way"…

    or how about missionaries prior to 1960 (mass air transit)

    or how about your average farmer

    or how about your average policeman....

    ya know...I wonder...is all of this discussion really Biblical? even though I don’t agree with the doctrine of the Catholic church at all...it is interesting that they call their priesthood to celibacy… maybe they are on to something (tongue firmly planted in cheek)

    I don’t know...someone out there help me out...but, BTW… I won’t be able to read your response until tonight… one of our associate pastor’s is having open heart surgery this morning at 7am, and I am choosing not to cheat him...but I am chosing to cheat my kids from their morning bfast with Daddy, my wife from waking up with her husband, my Lord from my morning time with him… etc....

    I really have respected Andy Stanley’s teaching, and as a 34 year old pastor, listened to his Dad on the radio growing up… I wonder how much of his decision to cheat the body of Christ, is in reaction to feelings he might have that he feels like his Dad cheated him as a kid? Has he dealt with that?

    My grandparents lived through the great depression. Not one of them would understand this whole discussion about the 45 hour maximum...would never be able to understand deciding to leave at 4pm “because that’s when my wife wants me home”...anyone ever had a “real” employer before? anyone ever worked just to put bread on the table?

    in my humble opinion...we are all spoiled...and we are all clueless…

    I challenge everyone...give(of your time) until it hurts...that includes our families who need to understand from the earliest stages what it means to sacrifice....

    In contrast to what I understand Andy is teaching
    Christ did command us to love the church…
    He also told Peter that he was going to build the church through him...I take that as a personal commissioning
    He later told Peter.... “do you love me?"… “feed my sheep"… (how can that be read as anything other than Jesus showing people that the way to love HIM, was to love the CHURCH)

    Alright...I don’t know if anyone is still reading or not...but please, show me the error of my ways…

    -bb-

  • Posted by
    Thursday, August 17, 2006 at 8:23 AM

    I ave a question. If Andy goes home at 4PM everyday, when does he visit the members who work? Now don’t tell me the pastor is not supposed to visit the flock regardless of whether he is a bivocational pastor of 20 or a senior pastor of 20,000. Food for thought.

  • Posted by
    Thursday, August 17, 2006 at 9:12 AM

    I will not say that he should not visit those in the flock who work. What I will say is that he is not the only one capable of doing so. Yes, Andy is the pastor. He cannot be everywhere like God. He cannot meet every single member of the church’s needs no matter if he were to visit from sunup until sundown. As Christians, we are all ministers. We should all be about ministering to each other. Not just expecting the pastor to do so because we think that is his job.

    And also, if it is the pastor’s responsible to be out visiting the flock, who should be visiting the pastor’s wife and children should he have any? Are they not a part of the flock as well? Should they not be attended to? Spent time with?

    I know a few pastors who visit with those who work during their lunch time by arranging to a place to meet to eat together; even a few who actually go where they work to see them. God meets people wherever they are at. Shouldn’t we do the same thing?

  • Posted by
    Thursday, August 17, 2006 at 9:27 AM

    AND… As your church grows, if the flock is expecting that the Senior Pastor does all of the “compassion ministry” (or even most of it) you will kill him. Even in our church of 1000, it’s too much to ask the SP to be the go-to guy in this area. In a church of 20K, like Andy’s, if he responded to even half of the calls for this kind of thing at night, he’d kill himself in no time. Now, there are some who the SP needs to be on the front lines of ministry with (especially the leaders) but not everybody, and indeed, as your church grows, not most everybody even… imho, of course

    For those of you who have Sue Mallory’s “The Equipping Church” book on your shelf, check out the story on pp 14-15.

  • Posted by
    Thursday, August 17, 2006 at 1:42 PM

    wow...seems like we are reacting to some experience in our past… i think the issue isn’t, do i do all of the “on call” visitation...the question is, do I do any of it! I know pastor’s who are moving away from doing ANY visitation...what a wasted opportunity to show Christ’s love…

    with all the push these days for “Social” ministry, and “getting out into the community”...yet, we don’t make the most of these special opportunities in people’s lives…

    why is it that we get upset if we get an intern or the “leftovers” from a doctor when we have a crisis, but people shouldn’t expect that of their pastor(or pastoral staff/elders)…

    I think there are two different issues here.... one is “how much is enough” when it comes to hours… and the other issue is..."when do I give those hours?"…

    Is anyone else out there totally uncomfortable in asking “how much is enough”? Rather than, “how can I give more”? Isn’t it the same stewardship issue as we have with money?

    Help me out here. I’m raising 3 daughters, and going to grad school while serving full time as a pastor at a church of 500 people. I’d love to have an excuse to not work as much, or work only when I want to work. But I didn’t think that was the “deal” I was signing up for when I said yes to the ministry. Just like a doctor, or a tow-truck driver, or a self-employed solo-propritor, or a_____.... different jobs have different schedules and different expectations.

    Somebody out there needs to shoot holes in my little rants. I wasn’t at the conference...so help me to understand...please! smile

    Thanks!

  • Posted by
    Thursday, August 17, 2006 at 2:18 PM

    Brian, I disagree with your statement below:

    [wow...seems like we are reacting to some experience in our past… I think
    the issue isn’t, do I do all of the “on call” visitation...the question
    is, do I do any of it! I know pastor’s who are moving away from doing ANY
    visitation...what a wasted opportunity to show Christ’s love...] – you then drew a parallel between us, making a medical appointment and having to see in intern (I think you were implying second string) rather than the doctor.

    If a pastor sees him/herself as the first string and the laity with encouragement gifts as second string, what does that do to the doctrine of the priesthood of all believers?  And why cannot a lay minister show just as much of Christ’s love as can the vocational minister?

    I don’t know the motive of the pastor you referred to who is getting away from doing ANY visitation, but could it be an intentional action to equip and empower the laity and counteract the natural mindset among congregants that unless the Sr. Pastor comes to my hospital room the church really hasn’t cared for me?  Even if it’s just to create more time in his schedule to focus on his sweet spot, IMO a natural byproduct is that many lay ministers will be better able to focus on theirs – which is a good thing.

    Wendi

  • Posted by
    Thursday, August 17, 2006 at 6:14 PM

    Brian, I don’t see any reason why a plan to live a reasonably paced life has to mean that we ignore orders from our commander-in-chief.  I make hospital visits, but only when asked to do so by one of the pastors or by one of our visitation volunteers.  I learned early on that I can’t do much for the person in the hospital.  I can just be there - the ministry of presence.  But then I took a volunteer with me on a hospital visit who had the gift of mercy (I have it in very small quantity).  It was amazing!  His mercy gift blew me away AND he loved that I let him take the lead on subsequent visits.  Pretty soon, he knew his way around the hospital and he started going on his own!  Eventually, I told him if he ever needed help with a visit, or if he was struggling with something related to the visits, to let me know.  Here at Saddleback, Pastor Rick jokingly says about him coming to see you at the hospital:  “You don’t want to be that sick!” When he does show up, he has been harrassed about “how many pastors does that church have, anyway?” because so many volunteers and ministry leaders and small group leaders and members have been there earlier in the evening.

    As far as the average farmer goes, us farm kids got way more time with our parents than the city kids did.  Granted, ours was usually in a grain truck, a hay truck, a tractor, a combine, or some other farm implement.  But, because my dad was in charge of his schedule, he could shut the machine off and come to my wrestling match or whatever else was going on.  I also have a “can do” attitude about most any job because I was doing significant farm work at an early age and given the freedom and the responsibility to take the tasks on.

    I think God wants us to give our people significant work to do.  If they can manage multi-million dollar budgets at work, and all that goes along with it, they can probably handle some aspects of church ministry as well.  Start them out with the little things and as they are faithful, give them some bigger things.  Who knows, we may be able to put ourselves out of a job!

    I have served in churches that have the pastor doing everything and I have been in churches where my role is to equip appropriately gifted people to do the work of ministry.  I choose the second, not just because I get to have a life, but because God has called me to equip the saints for the work of ministry.  That is our responsibility according to Ephesians 4.  There are also very few things that feel better than seeing someone do some aspect of my job with joy in their hearts and gratefulness to God for the gifts he has given.  To see them rejoice that they have done some of God’s work and lives are changed as a result is very rewarding as I’m sure you know

    Blessings,

    Dave

  • Posted by
    Thursday, August 17, 2006 at 8:52 PM

    Dave
    Dude. Sweet response. I was just out visiting your church a couple of weeks ago.

    Your message sounds like something I would write or teach for the most part. Problem is, you are driven by the right motivations. You’re right...it’s all about equipping the saints for ministry. When we do our Biblical role as pastors, then it will be amazing how the rest of our lives falls into place.
    Andy advocates just dropping whatever you are doing and praying that God will pick up the pieces. That’s just foolish in my opinion. He may have been able to grow a church in the Atlanta area off of name recognition, and not have to worry about working himself like most church planters (or like anyone starting up a new business)… I don’t know...what I do know is what he advocates in his books and evidently, at this conference.

    I’m a big fan of Andy and Charles Stanley’s teaching. I just don’t know that I want to rely on either one of them to use their personal life story to help me or anyone else know what a balanced ministry life looks like.
    And, it seems to me that Andy’s approach to the Biblical texts he uses is very isogetical. His bias is extremely strong. His applications are not within the context, at least, it seems, on the surface.

    I think this is one instance where the whole counsel of God might be helpful. Not a few isolated passages taken out of context.

    i like what several people have said regarding not trying to count hours, but listening to God’s voice and letting that be our guide...not legalistic application of some artifical external measurement.

    The application, like you said, the motivation, like you said, should be to equip the saints for ministry. Unfortunately, I don’t see that as Andy’s main goal. i saw his main goal as being to protect his family and himself. Which, I think in our culture today is becoming a subtle form of idolotry.

    I love my family. i take them to ministry events with me all the time, just like your farmer dad - and I pause reguarly to talk or play with them as much as possible.

    What I think is going on here is many people who are ineffective leaders and delegators and equippers are looking for an excuse for why they are ineffective. What i’m suggesting is that the number of hours is not the problem. Motivation for ministry is. (I know Andy does mention that aspect too...it’s just not what people seem to talk about the most...everyone just talks about the 45 hour limitation). Equpping the Saints for ministry, love the sheep, teach the Word, Guard the flock, do the work of an evangelist.

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