Brian writes [What I think is going on here is many people who are ineffective leaders and delegators and equippers are looking for an excuse for why they are ineffective.]

That’s a heck of an assumption, don’t you think? And from what I’ve seen of Andy’s writing and ministry, I think that his motivation for ministry is great. Here’s the problem, and I think he states it eloquently in his talk. If you do everything that has to be done in ministry every day, you will NEVER GO HOME… Where do you draw the line? Andy has found his line, he was careful to say it was HIS line. We need to find ours.

If I don’t______, it won’t get done? How many of these are terrorizing our lives!?!?

This whole debate hits very close to home for me.  To be honest, I at times feel like I have two brides.  My wife and the church.  I am passionate about Christ, about the church and about my family.  My commitment is to Christ first, and I have subsequent commitments to the church, which includes my family.  We are called to shepherd the flock and the flock is wounded and in need.  Christ has called us as pastors to shepherd the flock and it can take a good amount of time to do so.  In that effort to build up the body, I do not want my wife and son resenting the body of Christ.  I have been in pastoral ministry for a little over a year (entered at the age of 34) and prior to that have worked full time while serving heavily in the local church.

I will offer a few observations (and random thoughts) with varying value.  In a moment of honesty, I am at a fantastic church and only a year into pastoral ministry.  We would be considered a ‘megachurch’ due to attendance but it still feels weird to say it out loud.  I apologize for my newness, but this is where God has me.  Oh, and I didn’t grow up in the church, so I do not have the same scars that many of you might have.  There is enough grace to go around I am sure.

First:  Many pastors who went to college and straight to seminary and into the church do not have a realistic understanding of what it takes to work a 40+ hour week and then serve the local body while caring for a family.  Many of volunteers spend their 40+ hours laboring away at a job they find little joy in because we have not taught them the divinity of labor.  They are then excited to ‘do ministry’ for the church.  Several of you mentioned the flexibility that most pastors have.  It is awesome to be able to adjust my schedule to go to a Dr. appt with my son, to work from home, to take my son to the Little Gym, to do about anything I feel I need to do with my family when I need to.  There is an exchange in that.  Just as flexible as my schedule is, I need to be reasonable flexible as well for the benefit of those I serve in the local church.  Yes, many of us work long hours, but so do our members.  I generally do not like to count Sunday time.  Before I came on staff, I taught bible studies, worked greeting, and helped where needed.  I generally allow three evenings away (including night services) and I get at least one full day a week with my family.

Second: Those in the church are our family as well.  I have seen little mention of the fact that they are my brothers and sisters.  They might be members of the local church, but they are our family and we must think of them as such.  They are family that I have covenanted with.  They pray for me, and I them.  If I were down, they would take me in.

Thirdly:  In large churches we should developed undershepherds and celebrate them.  They are the front line to our body.  Teach them, train them, love them.  We can model shepherding them and they shepherd others.  We need to get better at pushing this role down the line.

Fourth:  It is pretty weak to say that we are not commanded to love the church.  What about, “owe nothing to one another but love”? And a myriad number of other passages.  We are absolutely to love the body.  Our spouses are also part of that body and we must not forget that as well.

Fitfh:  The 40 hour work week is a western idea, not a biblical one.  We should not take our cues from man-centered institutions.  We also should be wary of taking our cues from agrarian societies as well.  We don’t have to ‘make hay while the sun shines’.  What has God called you to?  What has He commanded you to?  Then get about it, whatever it takes to get it done.  We have all heard it before, “don’t work harder, work smarter”.  The labor He has called us to is based on a goal, not based on doing labor for the sake of doing labor.  What are the goals He has called you to?  Not just some of them, but all of them?  Make sure to include your family in them while understanding the calling of a father and a spouse.  Now what will it take to achieve those goals?

I have found in my own life that I work too many hours when I am unwilling to give ministry away.  Imagine with me for a moment that you work at Pepsi as a delivery driver.  Imagine that you had a bunch of people willing to learn and help you do your job because God told them to.  Wouldn’t you let someone drive your truck and make your deliveries while you stayed home with your family?  Maybe we think that we are the only ones who can do it right.  Maybe we have some control issues.

OK, so you say you don’t have enough volunteers and so you do everything.  Bad idea.  We just reinforce that the pastors do the work of ministry rather than work to build up the body.  Let some things die.  Please.  Ask: Are we doing some programs because we are ‘supposed to’?  Do we really need some of the formal ministries that we have?  Can I kill some sacred cows?  Again, what are the goals of your church?  Brutally assess whether your programs are achieving them.  What can you pare it down to?  Do it gently and be open with those that are affected.  Maybe some of them will take ownership.

Now for my working definition of balance:  Balance is when everyone is equally upset with you.  Is that really my goal?  No way!  So maybe we need to adjust the way we and others understand things.

OK, lastly, I think.  This whole discussion is because we live in a fallen world.  We are dealing with imperfect people.  Ourselves, our spouses, our children, our church body.  I can’t help but think that there are some huge discipleship issues that need to be addressed in our churches and in our homes.

I believe the healthiest model is where we can model both calling and commitment to the local body and to our families.  In modeling that commitment, we educate others about those commitments.  We are not cheating anyone.  We are modeling for them how to live and work rightly.  We can teach them how to think critically about the complex issues at hand.

Sorry for the book.  Luckily I have to go to bed.  Thank you all for the discussion and I pray that God is gracious to each of us as we endeavor to love our families and tend the flock.

Jacob,

I found your comments to be a wonderful blend of insight, experience, and compassion.  You are right about so many of the things you shared.  I think every one of us in ministry wants our family to always love and respect the church and want to be involved in a local church.  Therefore, we are very cognizant, and sometimes overprotective, when it comes to the way church impacts life for us on a personal level.  While I think that it behooves us to be protective of our families to a point, I also believe it is perhaps even more important for us to model Christlike word and actions in the face of things within church life that we would not necessarily choose for ourselves.  That can include an less-than-dreamy work schedule as well as negative and sometimes nasty commentaries on our ministry and even on our person.

Your point regarding killing off some programs is one we should not quickly dismiss.  One thing we do well in church life is overschedule our people—and then wonder why we don’t have enough people to “pull off” certain ministries.  Our focus should be on finding out what ministries God has called our churches to do—and then leading our church to do them with the highest level of quality possible.  Unfortunately, most of us serve in churches where our people are already spread too thin.  The failure to cut out a program or ministry activity that lacks adequate man-power only puts more on the shoulders of the staff and already-involved laypersons, which is an extremely difficult place to be.  As it is said, one can sprint for a short while—but not forever.

Finally, I’ll respond to your comment regarding discipleship.  I think you are absolutely right.  So much of how we and our congregations view this situation is rooted in discipleship.  For so many years I think our churches have been pretty good at adding people to the rolls but then making only marginal and half-hearted efforts to truly disciple them.  (I know there are a number of churches out there with solid tools and plans for developing the spiritual lives of their people, but please realize, this is pretty rare.) We must get to the point where we understand what our people need in order to grow spiritually—and allow that to be a central focus in our programs and ministry activities.  I personally would hesitate to have someone who didn’t know braille leading a ministry to the blind.  But if you look at our churches, many times we find people who are way underdeveloped spiritually serving in key positions of leadership.  While I realize that they have to start somewhere, I would argue that in most cases it should not be at the top rung of whatever their ministry interest is.  We as leaders will be held accountable for how well we assessed and responded to the spiritual and discipleship needs of our people. Why? Because I believe that is part of the teaching and training process for which every minister is responsible.

Regardless of what Andy Stanley may or may not have meant by the word “cheating,” I am personally uncomfortable using that word to describe our relationship to the church or to our family.  Cheating is not something we should hold out as an ideal, even in a tongue-in-cheek way.  Why?  Because as evidenced by the comments of others on this blog, such expressions are frequently misunderstood, misinterpreted, and make for a breeding ground for confusion.  I do not believe that Andy ever intended for his words to be misunderstood.  I think rather that he was probably simply trying to encourage those of us in ministry to be wise and seek balance.  All work and no play can make us dull, discourged, and disconnected from the ones we love the most.

Yep, actually we (I) do.  Take junk like that off as soon as possible.  It’s not a huge problem, but does happen from time to time. 

Todd

I’ve had the same prayer (and mindset) as Andy did, regarding my secular job.  However, it came to a crisis, more than once, when I realized that overtime was required, and if I don’t do it, I will get fired.  So if Andy and his crew can do it, more power to them.  I don’t have that flexibility in my secular job all the time (sometimes I do… sometimes the work is slow, so I can work 40 hrs. per week, but sometimes, for many months, much longer workweeks are required).

My ministry and seminary studies are then done “on my own time,” after my secular job requirements.  Someday I hope to be in full time ministry so I can “slow down” like Andy.  I’m in a transistion time now, which can be painful, but also very educational and has its own rewards.

...Bernie

I wonder if Jesus had a “to do” list and felt pressure to get everything done so that people would be happy with him.  I don’t think so.  I think he was concerned about only one opinion and that was the Father’s.  He lived for that!  It was his meat and drink and he would often slip off to a quiet place and pray.  He taught the disciples to do the same.  He pulled them out of busy ministry times and said, “Let’s get away and rest.” If we did that, I think we would be better at loving people and I think we would get just as much accomplished and enjoy it more.  Rest is a big deal to God and we know that Jesus is now our rest and we are to rest in him.  I wonder if he is pleased with our pace.

Just thinking out loud,

Dave