Quote:

“The Holy Spirit is breaking out of the ‘church,’ it looks to me...”

Praise the Lord and drive past that box called “church!”

One thing, Bernie.

There’s no need for the Holy Spirit to “break out of the ‘church’” primarily because He’s never been in that box.  He’s been on the outside expanding the Kingdom among those who need it most.

Hallelujah!

Quote:

“The Holy Spirit has never been in the church. Is that what you are saying Ricky?”

Of course, Jade, the Spirit of God has been in THE Church and still is.

As to being in what you call a “church,” yes, He’s there (in spite of our efforts at keeping Him out, I might add) but He’s not allowed to lead.  Like the congregation, He’s been relegated to the status of a spectator.

How sad.

“But Bernie… you should probably serve in a mega-church some time.”

I did attend a church that’s listed as a mega-church.  I was never a member of it, and they never asked or pushed it… it may be one of those where you are a member automatically, just by attending.  Believe me, you can come or go, and no one would know.  The church I attend now (as a member) is also very large, but not listed as a mega-church…

There has always been a “small” group in the “church” who have always sought for a deeper walk with God then a superficial religion.  The reason we are finally hearing about them now and not later is because of groups like Barna who study church life.  The “big church” has always discounted these as “holier then thou” to justify their own drifting.  We usually read about these after tey are gone, they are - Wesley and Whitfield and Moody and Booth… Might we say there is always small group in every generation which are actually the “remnant?” Just asking not condemning.

Al

A very interesting discussion indeed.

If we read the Scriptures closely, we see the “church” in all its forms.  We see the local congregation that is gathered together for both worship and service. (Acts 4, 5, 6, 7).

We see the “saints that are scattered” but still exhorted and encouraged to be the “church” (Epistle of James).

We see the “church” in Philemon’s house, and Paul’s admonition to them.

We see the “sinning” Church--but the church nonetheless (1 Corinthians).

So is there any one “right way” to “be the church”?

Bernie,

I know about that list.  Again… how big is the church you attend?

Todd

The reason I was wondering, Bernie, is just that you come across so against larger churches in most all of your posts.  You have so many criticisms of the ‘mega-church’ that I really was suprised to find out that you attend one.

I don’t know how big your church is, numbers wise, but looking at the website, I bet they’d qualify.  A megachurch is really defined by a weekend attendance of 2000 or more.  Your church website states that there are 12 staff pastors; which would put your church in that category pretty firmly I would think.

I’m not attacking (really I’m not)… but curious.  What makes the large church you attend different from all those ‘mega’ type churches that tend to disgust you?  I think that’s a valid question.

I guess I’m just really taken aback.  I would have placed you in a small (or very small) church.  Go figure.

Todd

All churches have shortcomings, and I think the tendency is to latch onto one category and start making stereotypes about that category.  For example, in the size category, the stereotype may be that bigger is better because more people are exposed to the word of God.  Or it may be the opposite: smaller is better because people connect more deeply and intimately with God and others.

The denomination category has its own stereotypes: Baptists are legalistic, Methodists are liberal, Pentacostals are just plain wierd....  (I’ve decided that I am Metho-Luther-Bapti-Pentacos-byterian, with strong non-denom-opalian leanings!  Try saying that fast!)

As I look for a church in which to serve, I am becoming much less concerned with the categories and much more concerned with answering the question, “Is God obviously or at least apparently at work there?” That’s not the only question, but it is the first one. 

I think that people who are looking to connect with God in some way are probably asking a similar question: “Where can I find God?” That the church in the box on the corner is NOT the first place they look should be a ringing indictment of church in general - and I don’t wanna hear, “Not in MY church,” as if yours is any better than the rest.  I grew up in church - and am still committed to building God’s kingdom through the local church - but I’m getting really weary of the competition between churches.  And don’t try to tell me it isn’t there, because I see it.

It’s there in our denominationalism, it’s in our doctrine, in our practical theology, our governance, our board meetings, our annual reports.  We “praise the Lord” for the 10 or 15% growth we had this past year - are we blind to the documented fact that 80% of church growth is transfer growth?  So if that 15% means 100 people, then 80 of those came from another church...which had to gain 80 others just to hold fast, or 100 to see some growth, and those 80 or 100 came from yet another church, and....  Somewhere, a church died because all their people ended up leaving.

Sure, we can say realistically yet still quite callously that “some churches just need to die.” Or we can blame it on the big-box church, just like we blame it on Home Depot when the mom-and-pop hardware store that’s been around for 80 years closes. 

But to the people around us who are trying to connect with God, those callous hearts, the fighting about whether to dip or sprinkle, the arguments about whether women should be called pastors or directors or helpers, the ... you name the argument, those things do more to trample the harvest than reap it.

So, next time you want to argue with a Brother or Sister about big church/small church, dip or sprinkle, congregational or elder ... whatever it is ... think about what the person on their way to hell is going to say when they meet Jesus at the final judgment.  “Jesus, if I’d have met you on earth, things would have been different.  But all I found when I walked into your house was a bunch of petty children arguing about things that didn’t matter to me.”

The article on “revolutionaries” in the church would be amusing if it wasn’t instead tragic. There have always been revolutionaries in the church from the times of the apostles to Booth’s Salvation army and Dorothy Day’s Catholic Worker. The problem is that as soon as they begin to become successful they change. The surrounding world learned a long time ago that when Christianity becomes a real threat all they need do is put the Christian leaders into power positions. Christians are a lot like old time communists. As soon as you saw one wearing an italian silk suit you knew that you had nothing to worry about. It’s the same thing when you have five or ten thousand members in a church. You wont rock the boat except in certain culturally accepted areas. (Abortion bad!! Genocide not our business!!!) What makes the whole thing amusing is the article on another webpage dealing with “risk management” in the church. Many years ago I met a woman who was working with the Catholic Worker on New York’s Lower East Side. When the issue of liability came up she explained: “We don’t have anything, so theres nothing to sue for.” We might remember that a couple of thousand years ago a single Palistinean rabbi with a congregation of twelve changed the world with a risk management plan that would probably not be very popular in most corporate churchs.

This article appears to be nonsense.  All is seems to say is that there are people who don’t go to church and justify it by saying they want to “be the Church.” It seems also to say that they are “revolutionaries” but does not define what that means or what “being the Church” means at any comprehensible level.  I feel that is article is a 0 on a 0-10 scale of usefulness.

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